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Ab345
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FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:42 am

Seems that the Lion Air crash has kick started some immediate actions.


The Federal Aviation Administration has issued an emergency order addressing the risk that faulty angle-of-attack inputs could cause Boeing 737 Max horizontal stabilisers to put the aircraft into a difficult-to-control dive.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... wa-453443/

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-453439/
 
kiowa
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:57 am

quick action by boeing. who has the largest fleet besides lion air?
 
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B744H6
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:03 am

kiowa wrote:
quick action by boeing. who has the largest fleet besides lion air?


In terms of total (and not just MAX 8 fleet size), flyDubai, Southwest have the largest fleets of MAX-edition 737s.
Last edited by B744H6 on Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Ab345
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:04 am

kiowa wrote:
quick action by boeing. who has the largest fleet besides lion air?


Per Wiki, it's Southwest with 23, Air Canada 18 and American with 15. Lion is 4th and Norwegian 5th

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... deliveries
 
SRQLOT
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:25 am

LOT polish airlines stated that they have provided the necessary training for such an even already in the first half of the year and that it’s not a new procedure for them. Also that training is provided twice a year.

https://www.pasazer.com/mobi/news/39929 ... arcia.html

So I remember from the Asiana crash in SFO, many on here stating that there are challenges in Asian cultures of pilots being able to manually fly airliners, they rely on autopilots so much and don’t go against captains wishes even if it’s a catastrophic decision. Will there be a change in culture after this one?
 
Tucker1
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:28 am

Knee-jerk action. If my next 10+ flights were on a max 8, I wouldn't think twice about getting on board. There should be more investigation into pilot response before the FAA comes a conclusion like this so soon. Now if my next 10+ flights on the max 8 were with lion air, I WOULD think twice about getting aboard. even the FIRST flight...
 
WayexTDI
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:40 am

Tucker1 wrote:
Knee-jerk action. If my next 10+ flights were on a max 8, I wouldn't think twice about getting on board. There should be more investigation into pilot response before the FAA comes a conclusion like this so soon. Now if my next 10+ flights on the max 8 were with lion air, I WOULD think twice about getting aboard. even the FIRST flight...

Kinda knee-jerk reaction from you too.
How do you come to a conclusion so soon that it was indeed a pilot error?
 
JAAlbert
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:41 am

The directive implies that the Lion Air's 737-Max would not have plunged into the sea but for improper inputs by the pilots.
 
QXAS
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:46 am

What is different on the MAX that made what hadn’t been an issue on earlier 737 aircraft suddenly an issue?
 
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Erebus
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:55 am

JAAlbert wrote:
The directive implies that the Lion Air's 737-Max would not have plunged into the sea but for improper inputs by the pilots.


Given what we know so far, it would be more like lack of proper inputs by pilots to correct the improper inputs by the plane. For what it's worth, we still don't know the full nature of the problem or how the pilots handled the situation. So it is still too early to draw such conclusions.
 
benjjk
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:04 am

QXAS wrote:
What is different on the MAX that made what hadn’t been an issue on earlier 737 aircraft suddenly an issue?


My friend is a 737 driver who forwarded a communique from his chief pilot. It says:

"There is no intention to extend the OMB to the 737NG, however many of you are likely wondering why it does not apply to these variants. The OMB describes a scenario where erroneous Angle of Attack (AOA) data causes the pitch trim system to trim the stabilizer down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds each. The pitch trim system is responding to a pre-programed speed trim schedule required to comply with FAR requirements. While the basic architecture of the 737 MAX variants (designated 737-8/9, as opposed to the NG variants which are designated -800/900) is very similar to the NG, there are some pertinent differences “under the hood.” This is particularly true of the speed trim system, which has expanded authority beyond that available to the NG variants to activate during manual flight – this is because of differences in the longitudinal stability of the 737 MAX. "
 
737max8
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:38 am

Ab345 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
quick action by boeing. who has the largest fleet besides lion air?


Per Wiki, it's Southwest with 23, Air Canada 18 and American with 15. Lion is 4th and Norwegian 5th

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... deliveries


Southwest has 26 737MAX8s in its fleet.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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wjcandee
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:58 am

SRQLOT wrote:
Will there be a change in culture after this one?


No.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:01 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
All modern day airliners have some sort of automatic trim. Pilots SHOULD be trained in how to deal with a runaway trim (turn off the stabilizer with the cutoff switches......it’s a memory item).. pilots SHOULD also be trained on how to deal with airspeed unreliable (turn off the Auto pilot, auto throttle arm switches, flight directors and set a pitch and power until you figure out what source is correct......also a memory item).

It appears lion airs training failed. That’s not on Boeing.

Don't necessarily disagree with the pilot training but if a computer pitches the nose down automatically without human intervention in manual mode, something doesn't add up. And I believe that's exactly what had happened to QF72 (and what the news agencies down here is indicating).

Michael
 
osiris30
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:06 am

eamondzhang wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
All modern day airliners have some sort of automatic trim. Pilots SHOULD be trained in how to deal with a runaway trim (turn off the stabilizer with the cutoff switches......it’s a memory item).. pilots SHOULD also be trained on how to deal with airspeed unreliable (turn off the Auto pilot, auto throttle arm switches, flight directors and set a pitch and power until you figure out what source is correct......also a memory item).

It appears lion airs training failed. That’s not on Boeing.

Don't necessarily disagree with the pilot training but if a computer pitches the nose down automatically without human intervention in manual mode, something doesn't add up. And I believe that's exactly what had happened to QF72 (and what the news agencies down here is indicating).

Michael


Again, this is normal expected behavior that has existed for decades on MANY aircraft. It exists in manual mode to make flying in manual mode easier for the pilot so they don't have to trim. It lessens workload on the pilots in 99.999% of times it happens. It prevents FAR more crashes than it causes. It is a net positive behavior for safety. This has been stated BY PILOTS several times in this thread.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:10 am

QXAS wrote:
What is different on the MAX that made what hadn’t been an issue on earlier 737 aircraft suddenly an issue?


Yeah, you know this sure looked initially like sort of straightforward pilot error. "Fly pitch and power, duh, and the thing will fly."

However, it is interesting that because of the apparently-decreased longitudinal stability of the MAX over other 737 variants, Boeing installed an automatic system that has greater authority than previous versions, particularly when the aircraft is being manually operated. This seems a little different than the operating philosophy of Boeing aircraft generally. It seems like they are saying that there's a way to turn this off, but unless you know what's happening to you, you don't know enough to turn the thing off, and it apparently isn't telling you, "Hey, I failed," because it would do what autopilot systems typically do when they encounter weirdness that they recognize as weirdness -- they go, "Hey, Bud, your aircraft," and switch off. But if they don't know they're broken, they just keep doing what they think is their job.

Here, it seems that the AOA sensor, if it fails, doesn't just give a false reading, but rather transmits that info to a system that then can do things it shouldn't be doing, to a degree never seen in a 737 before, during what most pilots would think is manually-controlled flight. Maybe training for the MAX massively-highlights this failure mode and the appropriate response (which likely has to be done quickly, without trying to find the problem in a manual or QRH). Or maybe it doesn't.

Sadly, someone is bound to call this "pilot error". But depending upon how extensively and repeatedly this is trained -- and how readily-identifiable the symptoms of this failure mode are -- one might have a reasonable question as to whether some rethinking of all of this is advisable.

The post immediately before mine seems to say that "all aircraft do this" and "it's waaay safer", etc., which isn't really being disputed. However, I think the issue being raised here is the degree of the authority that the system has, and with increased authority comes an increased ability to get you into trouble. This should have caused (and maybe did cause) airlines to address that factor when doing training on the MAX. Fly 5000 hours in an NG, then switch to a MAX for a trip or two, your instincts might require some help if you're going to correctly diagnose and respond to the issue. How much, I have no idea, but I'm confident that folks are looking at this.
Last edited by wjcandee on Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
osiris30
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:17 am

wjcandee wrote:
QXAS wrote:
What is different on the MAX that made what hadn’t been an issue on earlier 737 aircraft suddenly an issue?


Yeah, you know this sure looked initially like sort of straightforward pilot error. "Fly pitch and power, duh, and the thing will fly."

However, it is interesting that because of the apparently-decreased longitudinal stability of the MAX over other 737 variants, Boeing installed an automatic system that has greater authority than previous versions, particularly when the aircraft is being manually operated. This seems a little different than the operating philosophy of Boeing aircraft generally. It seems like they are saying that there's a way to turn this off, but unless you know what's happening to you, you don't know enough to turn the thing off, and it apparently isn't telling you, "Hey, I failed," because it would do what autopilot systems typically do when they encounter weirdness that they recognize as weirdness -- they go, "Hey, Bud, your aircraft," and switch off. But if they don't know they're broken, they just keep doing what they think is their job.

Here, it seems that the AOA sensor, if it fails, doesn't just give a false reading, but rather transmits that info to a system that then can do things it shouldn't be doing, to a degree never seen in a 737 before, during what most pilots would think is manually-controlled flight. Maybe training for the MAX massively-highlights this failure mode and the appropriate response (which likely has to be done quickly, without trying to find the problem in a manual or QRH). Or maybe it doesn't.

Sadly, someone is bound to call this "pilot error". But depending upon how extensively and repeatedly this is trained -- and how readily-identifiable the symptoms of this failure mode are -- one might have a reasonable question as to whether some rethinking of all of this is advisable.


While there may be nuanced differences between the max and early 737s, it does not change the fundamental mode of operation or dealing with the issue. It is akin to your new car having better brakes. They still do the same thing, just slightly more strongly. You still deal with a failure of the system the same way. (admittedly poor analogy on my part, sorry).

This is pilot error but IMHO the Lion Air crash was the fault of the previous pilots who did not report AOA issues in the maintenance book. We saw the log book and there was no reference to any AOA issues. Just airspeed and trim. Had they reported the AOA mismatch this would have never happened.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:22 am

osiris30 wrote:
This is pilot error but IMHO the Lion Air crash was the fault of the previous pilots who did not report AOA issues in the maintenance book. We saw the log book and there was no reference to any AOA issues. Just airspeed and trim. Had they reported the AOA mismatch this would have never happened.


This is the kind of info that makes A.net great. Thanks for sharing.

This points to a safety-culture issue, in a sense. How complete are the write-ups at this airline? What is the norm, and how much analysis and coaching is done on what is the optimal level of detail, and are people consistently doing it? And is there anything to learn from the way other airlines do it?
 
benjjk
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:42 am

wjcandee wrote:
osiris30 wrote:
This is pilot error but IMHO the Lion Air crash was the fault of the previous pilots who did not report AOA issues in the maintenance book. We saw the log book and there was no reference to any AOA issues. Just airspeed and trim. Had they reported the AOA mismatch this would have never happened.


This is the kind of info that makes A.net great. Thanks for sharing.

This points to a safety-culture issue, in a sense. How complete are the write-ups at this airline? What is the norm, and how much analysis and coaching is done on what is the optimal level of detail, and are people consistently doing it? And is there anything to learn from the way other airlines do it?


I thought your first sentence was sarcastic and was about to agree... I admit I might have missed something, but do we know for sure that the previous flight had an AoA mismatch? I knew of likely pitot problems. To say they did not report the problems in full, and therefore this tragedy is on them, is a very serious accusation to make and I'd hope there's good evidence.
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:57 am

benjjk wrote:
I thought your first sentence was sarcastic and was about to agree... I admit I might have missed something, but do we know for sure that the previous flight had an AoA mismatch? I knew of likely pitot problems. To say they did not report the problems in full, and therefore this tragedy is on them, is a very serious accusation to make and I'd hope there's good evidence.


Maybe it's fairer to say that assuming that the poster did in fact see the log and is aware of the problem, it's what makes a.net great. We used to have many, many more such folks on here, then the reception they received caused them to stop posting. So I want to give due when due, assuming for the moment that it's accurate.

The pitot stuff was flat out pure media speculation, because The Media always focuses on the last known big accident to see if the new accident is the same thing.

The source of the potential problem arises from this: The Polish newspapers posted an official statement by LOT Polish Airlines to the effect that they already train MAX pilots on how to handle what may be a contributing factor in the Lion Air accident, and that it is also part of recurrent, twice-a-year training, including practicing the proper response in the simulator. They then explain that they are not training this to anyone other than the MAX pilots because of the difference in the system involved, and how it has substantially-increased authority, even in manual flight, over previous versions owing to the reduced lateral stability of the MAX.

This particular focus doesn't appear to have leaked out much, but presumably airlines operating the type are regularly-informed by the manufacturer of things like this, whether or not in the form of an AD. So LOT would be in a position to know, and the information came out in a reputable Polish paper quoting an official statement of the airline. Good enough for me to consider reasonably-seriously.
 
mm320cap
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:58 am

osiris30 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
QXAS wrote:
What is different on the MAX that made what hadn’t been an issue on earlier 737 aircraft suddenly an issue?


Yeah, you know this sure looked initially like sort of straightforward pilot error. "Fly pitch and power, duh, and the thing will fly."

However, it is interesting that because of the apparently-decreased longitudinal stability of the MAX over other 737 variants, Boeing installed an automatic system that has greater authority than previous versions, particularly when the aircraft is being manually operated. This seems a little different than the operating philosophy of Boeing aircraft generally. It seems like they are saying that there's a way to turn this off, but unless you know what's happening to you, you don't know enough to turn the thing off, and it apparently isn't telling you, "Hey, I failed," because it would do what autopilot systems typically do when they encounter weirdness that they recognize as weirdness -- they go, "Hey, Bud, your aircraft," and switch off. But if they don't know they're broken, they just keep doing what they think is their job.

Here, it seems that the AOA sensor, if it fails, doesn't just give a false reading, but rather transmits that info to a system that then can do things it shouldn't be doing, to a degree never seen in a 737 before, during what most pilots would think is manually-controlled flight. Maybe training for the MAX massively-highlights this failure mode and the appropriate response (which likely has to be done quickly, without trying to find the problem in a manual or QRH). Or maybe it doesn't.

Sadly, someone is bound to call this "pilot error". But depending upon how extensively and repeatedly this is trained -- and how readily-identifiable the symptoms of this failure mode are -- one might have a reasonable question as to whether some rethinking of all of this is advisable.


While there may be nuanced differences between the max and early 737s, it does not change the fundamental mode of operation or dealing with the issue. It is akin to your new car having better brakes. They still do the same thing, just slightly more strongly. You still deal with a failure of the system the same way. (admittedly poor analogy on my part, sorry).

This is pilot error but IMHO the Lion Air crash was the fault of the previous pilots who did not report AOA issues in the maintenance book. We saw the log book and there was no reference to any AOA issues. Just airspeed and trim. Had they reported the AOA mismatch this would have never happened.


I don’t know how Lion Air’s Max’s are configured, but as far as I know, we don’t get AOA indicated on ours. So they reported what they saw, which was erroneous airspeed.

I FREQUENTLY write up what I saw happening to the jet at that time. And FREQUENTLY maintenance digs deeper and finds and underlying cause that’s not obvious in the cockpit. To suggest that the previous crew knowingly didn’t report an issue is a HUGE leap.

Now the fact that they continued to destination after regaining control of the aircraft is another story entirely.
 
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iahcsr
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:07 am

This is the best explanation of the matter I’ve seen so far.
https://youtu.be/OVmoo2dw4oU
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:26 am

If you're close to the ground or the water and the plane suddenly gives you a stall warning and pitches down, what do you do? Pitch up and risk entering a stall or look at the instruments and try to figure out what's going on? Too late, you're dead already.
 
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seahawk
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:50 am

JAAlbert wrote:
The directive implies that the Lion Air's 737-Max would not have plunged into the sea but for improper inputs by the pilots.


That over simplifies the problem. Surely for every fault there is a standard procedure on every airliner today, but still you need to look at the logic on how the systems work and the man to machine interface.

Imho it is a bit strange to have one automatic control system disengage due to unreliable sensor data, with another kicking in which requires data from the same sensors to fully work.
 
QXAS
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:20 am

Why did the pilots not turn back to Jakarta? They asked to return. Why did they continue toward their destination? Was the airplane too heavy and had to burn off fuel? Or do we not know since we don’t have the CVR?
 
WIederling
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:40 am

kiowa wrote:
quick action by boeing. who has the largest fleet besides lion air?


Boeing != FAA.
without FAA intervention you would have seen further pissy quips with "RTFM"
Murphy is an optimist
 
ELBOB
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:37 am

Maybe the Soviets had it right, maybe new types should run cargo and newspaper flights for a couple of years before a passenger steps on board.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:46 am

ELBOB wrote:
Maybe the Soviets had it right, maybe new types should run cargo and newspaper flights for a couple of years before a passenger steps on board.

That approach didn't seem to work, though.
 
osiris30
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:57 pm

benjjk wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
osiris30 wrote:
This is pilot error but IMHO the Lion Air crash was the fault of the previous pilots who did not report AOA issues in the maintenance book. We saw the log book and there was no reference to any AOA issues. Just airspeed and trim. Had they reported the AOA mismatch this would have never happened.


This is the kind of info that makes A.net great. Thanks for sharing.

This points to a safety-culture issue, in a sense. How complete are the write-ups at this airline? What is the norm, and how much analysis and coaching is done on what is the optimal level of detail, and are people consistently doing it? And is there anything to learn from the way other airlines do it?


I thought your first sentence was sarcastic and was about to agree... I admit I might have missed something, but do we know for sure that the previous flight had an AoA mismatch? I knew of likely pitot problems. To say they did not report the problems in full, and therefore this tragedy is on them, is a very serious accusation to make and I'd hope there's good evidence.


FDR data shows aoa disagree of upto 20 degrees on the previous flight (according to reports widely published). The maintenance ticket foe that flight did not mention AOA disagree that *I* saw. Maintenance won't fix what they don't know it is broken.

The question becomes: 1) Did the system report AOA disagree as it should? No information on this. 2) Did the crew fail to report it (it is possible to forget every single error you get when dealing with a bad situation). 3) Should maintenance have had ANY reason to automatically check AOA based on entries in the log book (I don't think so but could be wrong).

Finally for the record I am not blaming anyone. The previous flight was from all accounts hard work. It is easy to see forgetting to log every warning and error.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
osiris30
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:04 pm

mm320cap wrote:
osiris30 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

Yeah, you know this sure looked initially like sort of straightforward pilot error. "Fly pitch and power, duh, and the thing will fly."

However, it is interesting that because of the apparently-decreased longitudinal stability of the MAX over other 737 variants, Boeing installed an automatic system that has greater authority than previous versions, particularly when the aircraft is being manually operated. This seems a little different than the operating philosophy of Boeing aircraft generally. It seems like they are saying that there's a way to turn this off, but unless you know what's happening to you, you don't know enough to turn the thing off, and it apparently isn't telling you, "Hey, I failed," because it would do what autopilot systems typically do when they encounter weirdness that they recognize as weirdness -- they go, "Hey, Bud, your aircraft," and switch off. But if they don't know they're broken, they just keep doing what they think is their job.

Here, it seems that the AOA sensor, if it fails, doesn't just give a false reading, but rather transmits that info to a system that then can do things it shouldn't be doing, to a degree never seen in a 737 before, during what most pilots would think is manually-controlled flight. Maybe training for the MAX massively-highlights this failure mode and the appropriate response (which likely has to be done quickly, without trying to find the problem in a manual or QRH). Or maybe it doesn't.

Sadly, someone is bound to call this "pilot error". But depending upon how extensively and repeatedly this is trained -- and how readily-identifiable the symptoms of this failure mode are -- one might have a reasonable question as to whether some rethinking of all of this is advisable.


While there may be nuanced differences between the max and early 737s, it does not change the fundamental mode of operation or dealing with the issue. It is akin to your new car having better brakes. They still do the same thing, just slightly more strongly. You still deal with a failure of the system the same way. (admittedly poor analogy on my part, sorry).

This is pilot error but IMHO the Lion Air crash was the fault of the previous pilots who did not report AOA issues in the maintenance book. We saw the log book and there was no reference to any AOA issues. Just airspeed and trim. Had they reported the AOA mismatch this would have never happened.


I don’t know how Lion Air’s Max’s are configured, but as far as I know, we don’t get AOA indicated on ours. So they reported what they saw, which was erroneous airspeed.

I FREQUENTLY write up what I saw happening to the jet at that time. And FREQUENTLY maintenance digs deeper and finds and underlying cause that’s not obvious in the cockpit. To suggest that the previous crew knowingly didn’t report an issue is a HUGE leap.

Now the fact that they continued to destination after regaining control of the aircraft is another story entirely.


This is why I have added did AOA disagree report in a later reply. This is a fair point. AOA disagree is optional apparently?? I do not know why any airline would ever opt out for that but... There are a few questions to be answered but my assumption is aoa disagree would have reported If not it moves this to airline mgmt who didnt select it and maintenance who didn't do a thorough job.

Again not looking to throw anyone under a bus but here is the simple fact: A broken airplane landed and somehow still took off with the known(ish) malfunction. That is only minorly on the crew flying at the time of the accident.

This accident should have been prevented and without any major changes to pilot flying techniques or aircraft. This is a procedural failure at its root. Equipment breaks all the time. A faulty pitot or aoa should jot be the root cause ever to an aircraft crashing.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:26 pm

osiris30 wrote:
The question becomes: 1) Did the system report AOA disagree as it should? No information on this. 2) Did the crew fail to report it (it is possible to forget every single error you get when dealing with a bad situation). 3) Should maintenance have had ANY reason to automatically check AOA based on entries in the log book (I don't think so but could be wrong).


I agree with this. There are some additional questions perhaps as well, such as how much did the plane itself know vs. how much we see through looking at the FDR; neither pilots nor in my understanding the maintenance traditionally look at FDR...

osiris30 wrote:
Finally for the record I am not blaming anyone. The previous flight was from all accounts hard work. It is easy to see forgetting to log every warning and error.


Good. Thank you.
 
edmountain
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:24 pm

osiris30 wrote:
...

This accident should have been prevented and without any major changes to pilot flying techniques or aircraft. This is a procedural failure at its root. Equipment breaks all the time. A faulty pitot or aoa should jot be the root cause ever to an aircraft crashing.

The following hypothetical system designs would also be subject to similar procedural failures. As a result they can be remedied without any major changes to the equipment.

A vehicle's cruise control no longer receives valid speed information. The system responds by opening the throttle wide open because, hey, every driver should know how to use the break.

A different vehicle's traction control system no longer receives valid speed information from one of the wheels. The system responds by locking the wheel in question because, hey, every driver should know how to recover from a spin.

An elevator door can no longer tell if someone is in the entrance to the lift or not. The system responds by slamming the door shut because, hey, every little old lady should be able to prop open a 50kg door.

An insulin pump no longer receives valid information about blood sugar. The system responds by injecting a bolus of insulin because, hey, every diabetic should know how to respond to a hypoglycemic seizure.
 
T54A
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:58 pm

How does a new type get through a certification process without this been picked up? Is the regulator falling short of its responsibility?
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:16 pm

So in a crisis like this the pilot flying aviates, what should the pilot not flying have done to determine the problem? Were both pilots doing what they should have done/not done?
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iamlucky13
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:29 pm

T54A wrote:
How does a new type get through a certification process without this been picked up? Is the regulator falling short of its responsibility?


That suggests it is not a common issue, perhaps related to fairly specific environmental conditions not identified as a risk factor, perhaps due to in-service damage not corrected for some reason, perhaps due to a manufacturing defect not present on any of the test aircraft, etc, etc.

The 200 aircraft in service represent 50 times as many aircraft as were flight tested, and accrue as many hours in a day or two as the entire Max 8 test program.

Just an anecdotal commentary as somebody with experience in test engineering - some problems are really difficult to replicate in even well-designed tests.
 
nikeherc
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:56 pm

I’m trying to understand as much of the information being shared here as I can. I believe I read that the FDR showed an AOA disagree, but Lion and other airlines have elected not to purchase AOA disagree warning as an option. The Lion maintenance people repaired the fault reported by the pilots, but it is not clear to me if they actually reviewed the FDR data.

If my car has a problem that doesn’t necessarily cause it to stop working, but the manufacturer has deemed important, it turns on the check engine light. In some cases I encounter an unusual situation that does not turn on the check engine light, but I take it to my mechanic. In either instance, the first thing that the mechanic does is pull the diagnostic codes. Is there not some sort of similar procedure available in the airline industry?

I know that I am not an expert on this, so don’t flame me for ignorance for not being an industry insider.
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PW100
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:02 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
The directive implies that the Lion Air's 737-Max would not have plunged into the sea but for improper inputs by the pilots.

The directive also implies that there may be other issues at hand not foreseen by Boeing, FAA in the design and certification process, in terms of hardware (airplane, avionics), software (STS logic in relation AoA sensor data quality), and in terms of operating and maintenance manual instructions.

There is a reason that the Boeing message was followed up by an AD. If this was just a "Hey stupid, RTFM", the Boeing message would not necessarily be mandated by a FAA issued EAD.

The directive may also imply that this could also have happened to a US operator.
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Aptivaboy
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:07 pm

Question: does the MAX instrument display contain a backup old fashioned (non-digital) steam guage artificial horizon? And, if so, is it linked to a different AOA system?

Thanks for any input. Non-pilot here trying to understand a few things.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:09 pm

wjcandee wrote:
QXAS wrote:
What is different on the MAX that made what hadn’t been an issue on earlier 737 aircraft suddenly an issue?


Yeah, you know this sure looked initially like sort of straightforward pilot error. "Fly pitch and power, duh, and the thing will fly."

However, it is interesting that because of the apparently-decreased longitudinal stability of the MAX over other 737 variants, Boeing installed an automatic system that has greater authority than previous versions, particularly when the aircraft is being manually operated. This seems a little different than the operating philosophy of Boeing aircraft generally. It seems like they are saying that there's a way to turn this off, but unless you know what's happening to you, you don't know enough to turn the thing off, and it apparently isn't telling you, "Hey, I failed," because it would do what autopilot systems typically do when they encounter weirdness that they recognize as weirdness -- they go, "Hey, Bud, your aircraft," and switch off. But if they don't know they're broken, they just keep doing what they think is their job.

Here, it seems that the AOA sensor, if it fails, doesn't just give a false reading, but rather transmits that info to a system that then can do things it shouldn't be doing, to a degree never seen in a 737 before, during what most pilots would think is manually-controlled flight. Maybe training for the MAX massively-highlights this failure mode and the appropriate response (which likely has to be done quickly, without trying to find the problem in a manual or QRH). Or maybe it doesn't.

Sadly, someone is bound to call this "pilot error". But depending upon how extensively and repeatedly this is trained -- and how readily-identifiable the symptoms of this failure mode are -- one might have a reasonable question as to whether some rethinking of all of this is advisable.

The post immediately before mine seems to say that "all aircraft do this" and "it's waaay safer", etc., which isn't really being disputed. However, I think the issue being raised here is the degree of the authority that the system has, and with increased authority comes an increased ability to get you into trouble. This should have caused (and maybe did cause) airlines to address that factor when doing training on the MAX. Fly 5000 hours in an NG, then switch to a MAX for a trip or two, your instincts might require some help if you're going to correctly diagnose and respond to the issue. How much, I have no idea, but I'm confident that folks are looking at this.


This was my thought, too. I haven't heard much about the cause until watching NBC Nightly News last night, and I was reminded of the SAS MD80 crash in late December, 1991, where the pilot did everything right, according to his training and the manual. He throttled back the engines after ice ingestion, but a computer override he and the cockpit team knew nothing about took over, and to prevent a stall, the computer forced the engines to spool up. No matter what the pilot did to reduce engine thrust, the opposite happened, burning out the engines, and leading to an unpowered landing in a field. The pilot was never able to go back to flying, as his trust in an airplane responding to his commands was completely lost - and as he put it, "imagine steering to the right and your car turns left, and no matter what you do, it won't respond to any of your commands".

It sounds as though the MAX8 system for dealing with a mismatch in sensor readings for one particular system is different from other 737's, and that the pilots were unaware that the computer was undoing their actions. I would imagine that this is now going into the MAX8 flight simulators immediately.
 
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PW100
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:13 pm

osiris30 wrote:
This is pilot error but IMHO the Lion Air crash was the fault of the previous pilots who did not report AOA issues in the maintenance book. We saw the log book and there was no reference to any AOA issues. Just airspeed and trim. Had they reported the AOA mismatch this would have never happened.

How do you know they could/should have recognized AoA issue? Could its symptoms perhaps have somehow been "camouflaged" by the unreliable air speed issues? How well was the AoA apparent to the pilots.
I'll accept that one crew may have missed it, but if three or four crews missed it, that there seems to be more to it. Mind you, that may very well be a company procedure/training/culture thing (or lack off rather). But it may also be that such information was not recognizable for the pilots and only the 1700 channel DFDR was able to detect such.
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Erebus
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:18 pm

PW100 wrote:
There is a reason that the Boeing message was followed up by an AD. If this was just a "Hey stupid, RTFM", the Boeing message would not necessarily be mandated by a FAA issued EAD.


Even if one considered this EAD as just an emphasis on procedures already known for a runaway trim, up until now, we still don't know if the pilots did or did not try the said procedure and if it was the only thing they were trying to work through. Remember they were able to keep the aircraft aloft for a good 6-7 minutes since the problems started showing up, and it was in the last minute or so that things went awry. We have to wait for more information on how the pilots responded.
 
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:35 pm

edmountain wrote:
The following hypothetical system designs would also be subject to similar procedural failures. As a result they can be remedied without any major changes to the equipment.

A vehicle's cruise control no longer receives valid speed information. The system responds by opening the throttle wide open because, hey, every driver should know how to use the break.

A different vehicle's traction control system no longer receives valid speed information from one of the wheels. The system responds by locking the wheel in question because, hey, every driver should know how to recover from a spin.

An elevator door can no longer tell if someone is in the entrance to the lift or not. The system responds by slamming the door shut because, hey, every little old lady should be able to prop open a 50kg door.

An insulin pump no longer receives valid information about blood sugar. The system responds by injecting a bolus of insulin because, hey, every diabetic should know how to respond to a hypoglycemic seizure.

Basically you're comparing systems with no operators (automatic insulin delivery) or untrained operators (elevators) or minimally trained operators (automobiles) to ones operated by professionals with recurring training. IMHO you are doing so in a very exaggerated way, and given what we know so far, an unjustified way.
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dragon6172
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:56 pm

edmountain wrote:

A vehicle's cruise control no longer receives valid speed information. The system responds by opening the throttle wide open because, hey, every driver should know how to use the break.

Not a good example. Let's say the system responded by accelerating normally. A driver paying attention and not busy on a cell phone or eating fries would notice and tap the brakes turning off the cruise control, or press the button to turn off the cruise control.

On the aircraft the stab responds by trimming towards nose down, not instantly jumping there. A pilot should notice the trim wheels spinning towards nose down and respond appropriately.

osiris30 wrote:

This is why I have added did AOA disagree report in a later reply. This is a fair point. AOA disagree is optional apparently?? I do not know why any airline would ever opt out for that but... There are a few questions to be answered but my assumption is aoa disagree would have reported If not it moves this to airline mgmt who didnt select it and maintenance who didn't do a thorough job.

I believe it is the AoA indicator that is an option. If you don't have an AoA indicator, you don't need an AoA disagree caution.
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loalq
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:57 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
If you're close to the ground or the water and the plane suddenly gives you a stall warning and pitches down, what do you do? Pitch up and risk entering a stall or look at the instruments and try to figure out what's going on? Too late, you're dead already.


This.

Only those that fly know how things can get overwhelming and unforgivable quickly enough to cause a crash so fast that you dont even have the time to consider your options.
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PW100
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
Basically you're comparing systems with no operators (automatic insulin delivery) or untrained operators (elevators) or minimally trained operators (automobiles) to ones operated by professionals with recurring training. IMHO you are doing so in a very exaggerated way, and given what we know so far, an unjustified way.

While I do agree with your good observation, one point to take into consideration: our industry is starting to move (slowly, but surely) on that scale from "operated by professionals with recurring training" towards "minimally trained operators" (and perhaps even further than that). That started generations ago of course with removing navigators, engineers etc, with only two highly trained professionals in the pointing end today But this is not the end of that transition, we are now reaching the hardest part of the transition.
Technology is almost there that almost all tasks can be done automatically. The further down the road, the harder the human-machine interface will become.
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buzzard302
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:28 pm

I think automated airplanes, vehicles, machinery in general should only go to a certain point of self intelligence. I am not excited about the idea of unmanned aircraft or vehicles. No matter how well the designer thinks it is thought out, there is always some possibility of circumstances that occur outside programming parameters. Things that lead to serious injury or death. I have heard the argument that automated vehicles would likely crash far less than human drivers, and even though there may still be some loss of life, it will be far less than human drivers alone. It seems like we are at a point where the machine is complex and automated enough. We are struggling to react/interpret/correct problems when they occur and compound in these complex environments. There is always room for improvement, maybe we need to perfect what we have.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:33 pm

Tucker1 wrote:
Knee-jerk action. If my next 10+ flights were on a max 8, I wouldn't think twice about getting on board. There should be more investigation into pilot response before the FAA comes a conclusion like this so soon. Now if my next 10+ flights on the max 8 were with lion air, I WOULD think twice about getting aboard. even the FIRST flight...


I suggest you do some reading on faulty dampers Boeing kept installing in 737s since the beginning of its production until USAir Pittsburgh crash.
Boeing has history of faulty designs and LionAir crash could be a result of one, as well - you know?
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Revelation
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:31 pm

PW100 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Basically you're comparing systems with no operators (automatic insulin delivery) or untrained operators (elevators) or minimally trained operators (automobiles) to ones operated by professionals with recurring training. IMHO you are doing so in a very exaggerated way, and given what we know so far, an unjustified way.

While I do agree with your good observation, one point to take into consideration: our industry is starting to move (slowly, but surely) on that scale from "operated by professionals with recurring training" towards "minimally trained operators" (and perhaps even further than that). That started generations ago of course with removing navigators, engineers etc, with only two highly trained professionals in the pointing end today But this is not the end of that transition, we are now reaching the hardest part of the transition.
Technology is almost there that almost all tasks can be done automatically. The further down the road, the harder the human-machine interface will become.

Indeed, and I was surprised no one commented on what was written in the thread starter's article:

Malfunctions of airspeed and angle-of-attack indicators occur occasionally, but crews typically deal with such problems without incident, tapping fundamental skills learned while piloting small aircraft in their pre-airline years, says former National Transportation Safety Board member John Goglia.

But, though pilots may be highly-trained to operate technology-laden jetliners, many have less experience flying without such systems, particularly if those pilots hail from countries with less-developed general aviation industries, he says.

This kind of statement normally triggers a lot of posts on a.net especially with regard to US pilot hours requirements.
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SRQLOT
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:43 pm

T54A wrote:
How does a new type get through a certification process without this been picked up? Is the regulator falling short of its responsibility?


Just like with all these recent engine issues. They went thru the certification process with a green light, but it happens and not all will be caught in testing. Plus like earlier stated other airlines including LOT were aware of the issue and trained their pilots for this when they got the new aircraft.
 
SteinarN
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Re: FAA issues emergency 737 Max airworthiness order

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:00 pm

dragon6172 wrote:
I believe it is the AoA indicator that is an option. If you don't have an AoA indicator, you don't need an AoA disagree caution.


Well, in this case it seems that an AoA disagree message would have been very helpful for the maintenance guys when they was trying to diagnose the airplane after the previous flights.
It could even be conceivable that such a message might have been helpful for the pilots when they were in manual flight mode and the automatic trim went awry.

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