pabloeing
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Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:14 pm

DY is looking with the chilean authorities the start of the route MAD-SCL with B787
Here the information in spanish.

https://aviacionaldia.com/2018/11/norwe ... uropa.html
Last edited by atcsundevil on Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: REMOVED ALL CAPS FROM TITLE
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: NORWEGIAN MAD-SCL very soon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:28 pm

That's quite a long route, almost as long as the London Gatwick - Singapore route they recently gave up.

On one hand it's a bit surprising since recently they start every long haul destination out of London Gatwick first and the other hubs later. This one is started out of Madrid. Perhaps because it's too far from Gatwick. On the other hand, ties between Chile and Spain are probably stronger than ties between Chile and the UK.
 
marcoantona
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Re: NORWEGIAN MAD-SCL very soon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:50 pm

I don’t see this happening ‘very soon’. To begin with, they are very focused on the argentinean startup, plus strengthening the trans-Atlantic routes.
On the other hand, they need to get a Chilean AOC to fly non-stop (they’ve previously stated a Spanish AOC was not on their plans), as the bilateral only allows those aircraft registrations.
So, I see this more as a press wish, which is getting pretty frequent nowadays...
 
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Mortyman
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Re: NORWEGIAN MAD-SCL very soon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:54 pm

They can proabably just as well fly via Buenos Aires to Santiago with one of their Boeing 737's that they have in Argentina ...
 
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psa1011
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Re: NORWEGIAN MAD-SCL very soon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:05 pm

Mortyman wrote:
They can proabably just as well fly via Buenos Aires to Santiago with one of their Boeing 737's that they have in Argentina ...


I think Chile is now past the point of having to connect through EZE to get to multiple European destinations, given that BA, EK Alitalia etc have started new flights. Norwegian would be smart to compete with the LATAM/Iberia Oneworld Madrid monopoly.
 
a350lover
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:19 pm

Talking about Norwegian... everything is possible. From Greenland to Australia, everything seems to be on its radar.

Couple of things are happening with the DY strategy for long-haul flights in Spain:

-Madrid, despite it hasn't the 787 hub, seems relevant to the airline.
-DY seems uninterested in compete face to face with LEVEL, i.e. BOS announced to MAD, rather than BCN where LEVEL flies.

At the announcement of the MAD-BOS route, they said they were very interested in operate the much-waited Spain-Buenos Aires flights. Strange that even when they haven't launched EZE flights to BCN (where the hub/and the competence of LEVEL is), they already think of a possible link to Santiago from MAD, which at the same time is the last addition of LEVEL from BCN next mar19. All a bit confusing.
 
dcajet
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Re: NORWEGIAN MAD-SCL very soon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:17 pm

psa1011 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
They can proabably just as well fly via Buenos Aires to Santiago with one of their Boeing 737's that they have in Argentina ...


I think Chile is now past the point of having to connect through EZE to get to multiple European destinations, given that BA, EK Alitalia etc have started new flights. Norwegian would be smart to compete with the LATAM/Iberia Oneworld Madrid monopoly.


KLM begs to differ with you and they do a killing with 5th freedom tickets between EZE & SCL. I agree that the Chilean traveler prefers non stops like everywhere else. But not every airline can make it work to their benefit and clearly there is no business case other than losing money for a daily nonstop between SCL and AMS. So they came up with the second best and they seem to have it right.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
dcajet
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:25 pm

a350lover wrote:
At the announcement of the MAD-BOS route, they said they were very interested in operate the much-waited Spain-Buenos Aires flights. Strange that even when they haven't launched EZE flights to BCN (where the hub/and the competence of LEVEL is), they already think of a possible link to Santiago from MAD, which at the same time is the last addition of LEVEL from BCN next mar19. All a bit confusing.


Any flight between Spain and Argentina per the bilateral, has to be on airlines with AOCs from the 2 countries only. Given that Norwegian does not hold a Spanish AOC it would have to be on Norwegian Argentina. The airline has said they will operate long haul ex-Argentina towards the end of 2019 and with the A321LRNEO within the Americas (FLL? MIA? CUN?). So to be realistic, any service to Spain on DN would be on 2020 at the earliest.

marcoantona wrote:
I don’t see this happening ‘very soon’. To begin with, they are very focused on the argentinean startup, plus strengthening the trans-Atlantic routes.
On the other hand, they need to get a Chilean AOC to fly non-stop (they’ve previously stated a Spanish AOC was not on their plans), as the bilateral only allows those aircraft registrations.
So, I see this more as a press wish, which is getting pretty frequent nowadays...


Just thinking out loud here, but Chile has, as a general rule, a quite liberal open skies policy so Norwegian may be able to fly from Madrid using a non Spanish AOC.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
CrawleyBen
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Re: NORWEGIAN MAD-SCL very soon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:44 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
That's quite a long route, almost as long as the London Gatwick - Singapore route they recently gave up.

On one hand it's a bit surprising since recently they start every long haul destination out of London Gatwick first and the other hubs later. This one is started out of Madrid. Perhaps because it's too far from Gatwick. On the other hand, ties between Chile and Spain are probably stronger than ties between Chile and the UK.


BA operate the route from Heathrow using 787's (4x weekly) so would have thought DI could manage it too as well with their 787's from Gatwick? The flight time is shown as 14 hours and 40 mins on BA's website.

Cheers

Ben
 
descl
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Re: NORWEGIAN MAD-SCL very soon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:27 am

dcajet wrote:
psa1011 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
They can proabably just as well fly via Buenos Aires to Santiago with one of their Boeing 737's that they have in Argentina ...


I think Chile is now past the point of having to connect through EZE to get to multiple European destinations, given that BA, EK Alitalia etc have started new flights. Norwegian would be smart to compete with the LATAM/Iberia Oneworld Madrid monopoly.


KLM begs to differ with you and they do a killing with 5th freedom tickets between EZE & SCL. I agree that the Chilean traveler prefers non stops like everywhere else. But not every airline can make it work to their benefit and clearly there is no business case other than losing money for a daily nonstop between SCL and AMS. So they came up with the second best and they seem to have it right.


You can not compare SCL - AMS with SCL - MAD, which is a much much bigger market with high average fares given the LATAM/Iberia monopoly.
If Norwegian were to start operations to Chile, it would certainly be with a non-stop flight to Europe, just like Level will do from march.
 
dcajet
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Re: NORWEGIAN MAD-SCL very soon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:18 am

descl wrote:

You can not compare SCL - AMS with SCL - MAD, which is a much much bigger market with high average fares given the LATAM/Iberia monopoly.
If Norwegian were to start operations to Chile, it would certainly be with a non-stop flight to Europe, just like Level will do from march.


I did not have a comparison in mind. I was just answering to someone else about a one stop thru plane service to Europe from SCL.

What or how Norwegian may do if they ever connect SCL with Europe is everyone's guess at this point in time. I highly doubt they would launch a Spain - Chile flight without doing that first in a larger market (Spain - Argentina) and two (Argentina and Spain) where they are a local airline already flying domestically and internationally.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
a350lover
Posts: 614
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:23 am

It would be rather strange to pick up SCL before they launch flights from Buenos Aires, very true. Like dcajet posted, the flights are on hold until they fully developed long-haul operations with 787s at Buenos Aires. Interestingly, despite all the options were considered (Palomar, Ezeiza, etc.) Norwegian finally flies its domestic venture from Aeroparque, which seems reasonable, but will limit the connections of a future 787 operation in the country unless they switch to EZE the domestic routes.

On the other hand, I have my concerns about the capacity on the MAD-SCL route. At the moment, there are 17 non-stop flights a week, with days when there are up to 3 daily frequencies (2 on IB, 1 on LATAM). The two of them codeshare together and offer vast amount of connections at both ends. LEVEL will add 2/4 more per week once they fully established on the BCN-SCL route. Norwegian, once again, would have to rely on just O&D pax at the SCL end, limited amount of connections from MAD (compared to IB's).

100% agree. SCL isn't as busy as the EZE market, despite the stability of the Chilean economy. The route MAD-EZE is rather a "Puente Aéreo-Air Shuttle".
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:05 am

dcajet wrote:
a350lover wrote:
At the announcement of the MAD-BOS route, they said they were very interested in operate the much-waited Spain-Buenos Aires flights. Strange that even when they haven't launched EZE flights to BCN (where the hub/and the competence of LEVEL is), they already think of a possible link to Santiago from MAD, which at the same time is the last addition of LEVEL from BCN next mar19. All a bit confusing.


Any flight between Spain and Argentina per the bilateral, has to be on airlines with AOCs from the 2 countries only. Given that Norwegian does not hold a Spanish AOC it would have to be on Norwegian Argentina. The airline has said they will operate long haul ex-Argentina towards the end of 2019 and with the A321LRNEO within the Americas (FLL? MIA? CUN?). So to be realistic, any service to Spain on DN would be on 2020 at the earliest.

marcoantona wrote:
I don’t see this happening ‘very soon’. To begin with, they are very focused on the argentinean startup, plus strengthening the trans-Atlantic routes.
On the other hand, they need to get a Chilean AOC to fly non-stop (they’ve previously stated a Spanish AOC was not on their plans), as the bilateral only allows those aircraft registrations.
So, I see this more as a press wish, which is getting pretty frequent nowadays...


Just thinking out loud here, but Chile has, as a general rule, a quite liberal open skies policy so Norwegian may be able to fly from Madrid using a non Spanish AOC.


Didn't the Chilean government ask for some competition in MAD-SCL in order to approve the LATAM-IAG JV?

Realistically there are two carriers that can open this route: Air Europa and Norwegian. UX tried beforee (and chopped it) so there is only Norwegian.
 
jmmadrid
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:56 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Realistically there are two carriers that can open this route: Air Europa and Norwegian. UX tried beforee (and chopped it) so there is only Norwegian


At the time, UX didn't have the right plane for this route and they had to stop at Salvador. Now, with the 787, they can fly nonstop and could give the route another try.

In regards to Norwegian, MAD-SCL-MAD would be another test to their business model. A very long flight where they would have to offer cheap fares to compete, and where it's extremely unlikely that they will attract some business traffic, already tied to LATAM and IBERIA. It will be hard for them to reach breakeven.
 
dcajet
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:13 pm

It appears that the first routes that Norwegian would serve to/fr Chile will be from Argentina (either BUE/COR/MDZ).

https://www.desdescl.com/2018/12/norweg ... afico.html
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
c7aero
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Re: NORWEGIAN MAD-SCL very soon

Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:26 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
That's quite a long route, almost as long as the London Gatwick - Singapore route they recently gave up.

On one hand, it's a bit surprising since recently they start every long-haul destination out of London Gatwick first and the other hubs later. This one is started out of Madrid. Perhaps because it's too far from Gatwick. On the other hand, ties between Chile and Spain are probably stronger than ties between Chile and the UK.


BA flies a 789 LHR-SCL nonstop (7,227 miles / 11,631 km / 6,280 nm), the airline's longest nonstop route so far.
Lifetime miles flown so far: + – 3.2 million.
Airports in 2018 in cron order: BON CUR AUA MIA SCL JFK LHR HEL BKK HKT DEL IXM MAA VNS HJR UDR BOM IXU LIM MEX FLL ORD ZCO PUQ PMC DFW SNA SEA DUS RTM LCY DUB LGA EZE IGR AEP GRU MAD ARN GOT BRU CGN STN SNN
 
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Aisak
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:14 pm

dcajet wrote:
a350lover wrote:
At the announcement of the MAD-BOS route, they said they were very interested in operate the much-waited Spain-Buenos Aires flights. Strange that even when they haven't launched EZE flights to BCN (where the hub/and the competence of LEVEL is), they already think of a possible link to Santiago from MAD, which at the same time is the last addition of LEVEL from BCN next mar19. All a bit confusing.


Any flight between Spain and Argentina per the bilateral, has to be on airlines with AOCs from the 2 countries only. Given that Norwegian does not hold a Spanish AOC it would have to be on Norwegian Argentina. The airline has said they will operate long haul ex-Argentina towards the end of 2019 and with the A321LRNEO within the Americas (FLL? MIA? CUN?). So to be realistic, any service to Spain on DN would be on 2020 at the earliest.


Actually there is a way around it. There is no need to summon AR-ES rights to fly MAD-EZE. Same for MAD-SCL on CL-ES bilateral.

For example, DI (Norwegian Air UK) being a British airline could in theory fly LGW-MAD-SCL should the UK-CL allowed 5th freedom with a stop en route at MAD. They could even fly the 737 on the MAD-LGW and the 787 on the MAD-SCL if the 5th freedom is exercised with a change of gauge.

It could be an operational nightmare, but lawfully, it could be done without applying for rights under th e ES-CL bilateral.

Given the 737s based in MAD fly under Norwegian Air international (D8), an Irish airline, it could be wise to look into IE-CL rights.... to base a couple of 787s for these 5th freedom routes... but flights should have to start in Ireland and make a tech stop in MAD before going across the Atlantic (only to LATAM)
 
a350lover
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:38 pm

Aisak wrote:

Actually there is a way around it. There is no need to summon AR-ES rights to fly MAD-EZE. Same for MAD-SCL on CL-ES bilateral.

For example, DI (Norwegian Air UK) being a British airline could in theory fly LGW-MAD-SCL should the UK-CL allowed 5th freedom with a stop en route at MAD. They could even fly the 737 on the MAD-LGW and the 787 on the MAD-SCL if the 5th freedom is exercised with a change of gauge.

It could be an operational nightmare, but lawfully, it could be done without applying for rights under th e ES-CL bilateral.

Given the 737s based in MAD fly under Norwegian Air international (D8), an Irish airline, it could be wise to look into IE-CL rights.... to base a couple of 787s for these 5th freedom routes... but flights should have to start in Ireland and make a tech stop in MAD before going across the Atlantic (only to LATAM)


This is the day-to-day paperwork for Norwegian when they start a route. Something which theoretically is done to save some costs, and have lots of flexibility and rights to freely serve in a rather dispersed-multi-hub operation, ends up being a bit of a mess. Putting aircrafts under specific AOCs is a bit risky unless you are super convinced of the business you are going to make by operating them.

I am not saying that this is not a smart way of developing your business, but maybe with just one or two. This would also be logical if Norwegian was a group of differentiated airlines more like a management enterprise with a catalogue of airlines under. However, the way Norwegian moves around with the AOCs is quite erratic, and I guess all the lobbying behind all this work must be so time-consuming.
 
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NearMiss
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:09 am

Quite a big reason for this new Norwegian destination is that Chile is becoming quite a big spot for Outdoor Tourism. Just won the award for the third time in a row for World's Leading Adventure Tourism Destination.

Just my :twocents:
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Mortyman
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:22 am

According to Norwegian Financial paper Dagens Næringsliv, they also plan

Santiago - Miami


https://www.dn.no/luftfart/norwegian/ch ... 2-1-490528


They are very early in the prosess though
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:31 pm

Does anyone else think that if DY keeps being managed as it is today it won't last long?
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763, 732,733,735,737,738,739,752,722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,M83,M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,333,343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,CR9,CR10,
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Mortyman
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:52 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
Does anyone else think that if DY keeps being managed as it is today it won't last long?


Several people think that on this forum and they have been saying so every month for several years and yet here both we and Norwegian still are. Anyway that question is for another thread.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:56 pm

Mortyman wrote:
According to Norwegian Financial paper Dagens Næringsliv, they also plan

Santiago - Miami


https://www.dn.no/luftfart/norwegian/ch ... 2-1-490528


They are very early in the prosess though


And for that they need either an American or a Chilean AOC. Norwegian has neither. However they could of course funnel these passengers through Madrid.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:03 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
Does anyone else think that if DY keeps being managed as it is today it won't last long?


The Norwegian business model has several design flaws and if they don't fix them, sooner or later they'll be blown out of the sky by a competing airline that doesn't have those flaws. As long as that competing airline doesn't exist they'll stay alive, not because they're so great but for lack of better.
 
dcajet
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:05 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
According to Norwegian Financial paper Dagens Næringsliv, they also plan

Santiago - Miami


https://www.dn.no/luftfart/norwegian/ch ... 2-1-490528


They are very early in the prosess though


And for that they need either an American or a Chilean AOC. Norwegian has neither. However they could of course funnel these passengers through Madrid.


They have options much closer to SCL: MDZ or COR, using Norwegian Argentina. Say: SCL-COR-MIA/FLL. And they already have all the pertinent route authorities. And with the A321LR on their future fleet plans... :idea:
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Norwegian MAD-SCL very soon

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:22 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
According to Norwegian Financial paper Dagens Næringsliv, they also plan

Santiago - Miami


https://www.dn.no/luftfart/norwegian/ch ... 2-1-490528


They are very early in the prosess though


And for that they need either an American or a Chilean AOC. Norwegian has neither.


You don't think they have thought of this ? :banghead:

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