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Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:00 pm

Welcome to Australian Aviation Thread December 2018. Please continue discussion below. Link to last thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1407393

Qantas Fleet Thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382753
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:03 pm

Just to add my 2c to topics at the end of last month:

Qantas16 is correct, it is highly, highly likely that a passenger whose passport is subject to border alert will have been denied boarding in London and never made it to Australia in the first place.

Sevenair is incorrect, he made a comment that airside workers do not require ID. All airside staff require an ASIC regardless of role. What might cause some confusion is that there are different levels of clearance. A barista or shop assistant only have a grey ASIC on the basis they do not require access to the ramp or aircraft as part of their role whereas airline staff have a red ASIC which is a higher level of security check/clearance.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:21 pm

tullamarine wrote:
D7A330 wrote:
Not sure if already posted, but another TT A320 has made the jump to VARA - this time it's VH-VNP.


The A320 is the creeping F100 replacement in the WA mining sector. What is its key attributes that make it a better candidate for this role than 73H?


I am not surprised about VARA getting another A320 as I did post a month or two ago that I thought that they could do with 1 or 2 more frames. The A320 compliments the F100 fleet. The F100's are being pushed quite hard at the moment, during the week most of them average 6 flights a day. Of the 14 F100's, 13 of them are in service while the other one has been stored and is being used for parts. If you ever happen to see this aircraft you will notice a couple of obvious things missing. On a typical day VA mainline has 77-79 of 81 737's in service. As a result there is a limited amount of flying VA mainline can do with its current fleet. There is no 737's based in PER as such, they are routed to PER as required, on a Friday night there are ony 2 737's overinght in PER compared to 7-8 on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Another issue is that business class is not a great seller on regional routes in WA so in some instances its better to operate a 1 class A320 and keep the 737's on routes where those business class seats can increase yields, ultimately the 737's are used as they need something bigger than the F100 but dont have enough A320's to cover that. You will find that the A320's fly on the same routes as the 737's plus operate charters to BYP, OCM, CJF along with flights to Christmas and Cocos Islands. I would also argue that QF brought in the A320's for Network for a similar reason, so the 737's can be used where they make more money. Over the past 6 months there has been a big increase in passenger numbers through flights throughtout WA. PER-KGI for example was one 1 737 6 months ago, most week days there are 3 737's a day to KGI now. Both PHE and ZNE are seeing a couple of flights a day with 737's now and most recently KTA is starting to see 737's. On the weekends VARA A320's fly on PER-DRW and PER-ADL, both routes are not big on business class either even during the week. In theory they could start using A320's on both these routes to release a 737 elsehwere or for a new route. Monday's through to Thursday's one 737 will route ADL-PER-DRW-PER so it is plausible that this could be replaced by A320 with another operating PER-ADL, 1725 dep from PER or there abouts, though that flight currently uses the 737 that operates VA464 BNE-PER, a scheduling change could fix this. There is one AUS-NZ route which could do with more frequency added, all I will say loads have been high and consistent on this particular route, a freed up 737 could offer more opportunities such as this.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:43 am

Sevenair your question about two in the cockpit in Australia in the November thread is answered here: http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/0 ... kpit-rule/

I’m pretty sure all airlines revoked internal rules when this changed. I’ve not seen an FA go in to the cockpit lately but I don’t pay a lot of attention either.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:01 am

qf789 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
D7A330 wrote:
Not sure if already posted, but another TT A320 has made the jump to VARA - this time it's VH-VNP.


The A320 is the creeping F100 replacement in the WA mining sector. What is its key attributes that make it a better candidate for this role than 73H?


I am not surprised about VARA getting another A320 as I did post a month or two ago that I thought that they could do with 1 or 2 more frames. The A320 compliments the F100 fleet. The F100's are being pushed quite hard at the moment, during the week most of them average 6 flights a day. Of the 14 F100's, 13 of them are in service while the other one has been stored and is being used for parts. If you ever happen to see this aircraft you will notice a couple of obvious things missing. On a typical day VA mainline has 77-79 of 81 737's in service. As a result there is a limited amount of flying VA mainline can do with its current fleet. There is no 737's based in PER as such, they are routed to PER as required, on a Friday night there are ony 2 737's overinght in PER compared to 7-8 on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Another issue is that business class is not a great seller on regional routes in WA so in some instances its better to operate a 1 class A320 and keep the 737's on routes where those business class seats can increase yields, ultimately the 737's are used as they need something bigger than the F100 but dont have enough A320's to cover that. You will find that the A320's fly on the same routes as the 737's plus operate charters to BYP, OCM, CJF along with flights to Christmas and Cocos Islands. I would also argue that QF brought in the A320's for Network for a similar reason, so the 737's can be used where they make more money. Over the past 6 months there has been a big increase in passenger numbers through flights throughtout WA. PER-KGI for example was one 1 737 6 months ago, most week days there are 3 737's a day to KGI now. Both PHE and ZNE are seeing a couple of flights a day with 737's now and most recently KTA is starting to see 737's. On the weekends VARA A320's fly on PER-DRW and PER-ADL, both routes are not big on business class either even during the week. In theory they could start using A320's on both these routes to release a 737 elsehwere or for a new route. Monday's through to Thursday's one 737 will route ADL-PER-DRW-PER so it is plausible that this could be replaced by A320 with another operating PER-ADL, 1725 dep from PER or there abouts, though that flight currently uses the 737 that operates VA464 BNE-PER, a scheduling change could fix this. There is one AUS-NZ route which could do with more frequency added, all I will say loads have been high and consistent on this particular route, a freed up 737 could offer more opportunities such as this.


Hearing 2 more to go to VARA over the next 12-18 months.

Also VARA A320 is doing a ADL-MEL-ADL routing on weekends at the moment apparently and also the KGI-MEL routing. As you say the F100's are really being pushed at the moment.

As for the question about why the A320, no real reason more just that VA group has them coming available as TT moves to 737 and JQ has some spare capacity in the QF group.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:22 am

Quote from an australian aviation article regarding the qantaslink/network 320s...

“Operationally, the A320s have superior takeoff performance in the extreme hot conditions in WA and are configured as an all-economy cabin. These two factors mean they can carry up to 30 additional passengers than the 737s that they replace, and they also offer more seats than F100s and 717s.”

I imagine VA are using the 320s for the same reasons.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:18 am

decry wrote:
Quote from an australian aviation article regarding the qantaslink/network 320s...

“Operationally, the A320s have superior takeoff performance in the extreme hot conditions in WA and are configured as an all-economy cabin. These two factors mean they can carry up to 30 additional passengers than the 737s that they replace, and they also offer more seats than F100s and 717s.”

I imagine VA are using the 320s for the same reasons.


This is clearly incorrect.

Qantas 1 class A320s have 3 more seats than their 2 class 737s (177 and 174 respectively). Even in a hypothetical scenario where the 737s performance is limited* there is no way that an A320 is going out fully loaded when a 737 requires 27 blocked seats. To say that the A320 can carry up to 30 additional passengers is flat out wrong.

*This is the first time I have ever heard of the 737-800 having inferior field performance to the A320, and I would like to see actual operational data as - to be blunt - I don't believe that it is true. If we were discussing the A321 vs 737-900 then absolutely, the 739 has pathetic field performance but that isn't the case with the 738.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:44 am

What would become VARA aircraft of choice in the future when the F100s pass their useby dates.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:03 am

waoz1 wrote:
What would become VARA aircraft of choice in the future when the F100s pass their useby dates.


I was wondering the same thing, a few years ago I would have said Embraer's, but few airlines can seem to run the E90 profitably.

I'd love to say A220s, but I don't think that's going to happen.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:07 am

waoz1 wrote:
What would become VARA aircraft of choice in the future when the F100s pass their useby dates.


Same goes for Network and Even cobham and the 717, what ever it is it won't be new, whole point of these contract companies is to acquire cheap used aircraft.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:10 am

Using used A320's for WA allows for 737's to be redeployed on the east coast. The other alternative for adding capacity would be for VA to buy new 737's.

I suspect VA are just shuffling aircraft around. Until the 737MAX's start arriving VA are going to be capacity neutral.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:36 am

waoz1 wrote:
What would become VARA aircraft of choice in the future when the F100s pass their useby dates.


Certainly difficult to see what could replace them - the F100 is the perfect aircraft for most mine sites, whilst the A320 is too large with the exception of the major Pilbara towns.
The F100s with Alliance, for example, have just been complimented by Alliance purchasing most of the remaining ones from LH group, so they certainly aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Many of Alliance's F100s are over 25 years old, and I fly them twice a week - they're reliable, have a very low cycle-count and seem to be in great working order.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:07 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:

Qantas 1 class A320s have 3 more seats than their 2 class 737s (177 and 174 respectively). Even in a hypothetical scenario where the 737s performance is limited* there is no way that an A320 is going out fully loaded when a 737 requires 27 blocked seats. To say that the A320 can carry up to 30 additional passengers is flat out wrong.

*This is the first time I have ever heard of the 737-800 having inferior field performance to the A320, and I would like to see actual operational data as - to be blunt - I don't believe that it is true. If we were discussing the A321 vs 737-900 then absolutely, the 739 has pathetic field performance but that isn't the case with the 738.

Australian aviation article does have a point.

If you check the performance data for both 737-800 and A320 - and let's use Karratha (2280m/7480ft runway and sea level airport) as an example. 737-800 can carry roughly 75-76t for take off on a IAS+15-celsius-degree day (which translates into roughly 30 degrees), while A320 can carry roughly 79.5-80t take off weight in the same condition. And that's 3-4t difference or using 125kg per person+bag, that's 24-32 persons' weight. Not to mention 737-800 has a heavier empty weight than A320.

I know the two figures are not intended for real world ops, but since they're the official data from respective manufacturers you get the point.

Ps. FYI A320's performance data from https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/support ... stics.html and Boeing's from https://www.boeing.com/commercial/airpo ... nuals.page.

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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:41 pm

Does anyone have access to the vh-znd schedule for the rest of december?
CRJ200, Q400, E175, E195, MD88, MD90, A320, A332, A380, B717, B734, B738, B739, B752, B762, B763, B744, B744ER
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:11 am

Hey everyone

Sorry to make such a big deal out of a conversation topic that was purely hypothetical.

Will be speaking to him in the morning re iris scanning and different boarding passes etc. Hopefully that'll put his paranoia to bed.

Thanks again.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:13 am

Qantas has extended PER-SIN A332 into NS19

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... djustment/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:01 am

qf789 wrote:
Qantas has extended PER-SIN A332 into NS19

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... djustment/


Bonus
Done QF 737 and SQ 787 on that service QF had to lift their game
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:15 pm

September BITRE numbers are out for people who are interested. https://bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoi ... y_1809.pdf

QF now carry more pax between Australia-Japan than Australia-Hong Kong.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:06 am

Air New Zealand says there is potential for second seasonal service to PER to become year round, operating A321neo's to PER has been ruled out due to the length of the flight

https://thewest.com.au/news/travel/air- ... 881038452z
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:13 am

VA has lodged an application with the IASC for HA to codeshare on VA Australia to New Zealand services

https://iasc.gov.au/applications/files/ ... rvices.pdf
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:29 am

Going off BITRE figures MEL-PER-LHR figures are as follows

ex MEL 1353 19.11%LF
ex PER 5170 73.02%LF
Total ex AUS 6523 92.13%LF

to MEL 1762 24.88%LF
to PER 4857 68.6%LF
Total to AUS 6619 93.49%LF

First month of operation for QF MEL-SFO, overall I think QF would be happy with these figures

Ex MEL 3314 82.6%
To MEL 3006 79.6%
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:55 am

Report of done being spotted by Qantas pilot out of Perth.

Heard reports on news in morning followed up by this article.
https://thewest.com.au/news/aviation/hu ... 881038738z
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:13 am

getluv wrote:
September BITRE numbers are out for people who are interested. https://bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoi ... y_1809.pdf

QF now carry more pax between Australia-Japan than Australia-Hong Kong.


Interesting that CXs WTB service is carrying my inbound freight than outbound...
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:00 pm

AirAsia X moves to AVV today, with the first flight being airborne

https://www.flightradar24.com/XAX218/1ec299d5

Official opening of the terminal at AVV was on Sunday

http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/1 ... -terminal/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:22 am

Does anybody here know if the QF Antarctic sightseeing flights will be operated only by the 747-400ER sub-type or not?

I see QF has the following 747 domestic flights available:

*31/12 QF423 SYD-MEL
31/12 MEL Antarctic
*1/1 QF424 MEL-SYD

*9/2 QF435 SYD-MEL
10/2 MEL Antarctic
*11/2 QF430 MEL-SYD

I suspect those flights allow for the re-positioning of a 747 into MEL to operate the Antarctic sightseeing flight.

If it was a certainty that those flights would be operated by an ER I'd go ahead and book one just to log the ER sub-type, that is why I'm asking if QF only use the ERs on those flights.

Thank you for any info.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:26 am

qf789 wrote:
AirAsia X moves to AVV today, with the first flight being airborne

https://www.flightradar24.com/XAX218/1ec299d5

Official opening of the terminal at AVV was on Sunday

http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/1 ... -terminal/


I’m very interested to see how these flights go. AVV has had a bit of a chequered history with flights and struggles to support a significant domestic network. I do think people are more likely to travel a bit further to AVV to keep a cheap deal on an international flight compared to the same for domestic.

I can’t really see any other transfers out of MEL at this stage though.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:59 am

Video of first international flight landing at AVV

https://twitter.com/avalonairportau/sta ... 01696?s=21
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:41 am

QF742 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
AirAsia X moves to AVV today, with the first flight being airborne

https://www.flightradar24.com/XAX218/1ec299d5

Official opening of the terminal at AVV was on Sunday

http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/1 ... -terminal/


I’m very interested to see how these flights go. AVV has had a bit of a chequered history with flights and struggles to support a significant domestic network. I do think people are more likely to travel a bit further to AVV to keep a cheap deal on an international flight compared to the same for domestic.

I can’t really see any other transfers out of MEL at this stage though.

We don't know the pricing but we can safely assume Linfox has been pretty aggressive with its airport charges to attract D7. We also know that they've invested $50M so they need more than just D7 for the sums to work.

If I was to guess, the current targets are pretty obviously JQ and TR. JQ already has staff on the ground in AVV and maybe moving DPS flights, particularly once the A321LRs arrive makes sense. Likewise Scoot would be attracted to a lower cost base. Its current flights are basically wingtip flights against SQ so creating a difference may be both attractive and lucrative.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:37 am

sydramper wrote:
Does anybody here know if the QF Antarctic sightseeing flights will be operated only by the 747-400ER sub-type or not?

I see QF has the following 747 domestic flights available:

*31/12 QF423 SYD-MEL
31/12 MEL Antarctic
*1/1 QF424 MEL-SYD

*9/2 QF435 SYD-MEL
10/2 MEL Antarctic
*11/2 QF430 MEL-SYD

I suspect those flights allow for the re-positioning of a 747 into MEL to operate the Antarctic sightseeing flight.

If it was a certainty that those flights would be operated by an ER I'd go ahead and book one just to log the ER sub-type, that is why I'm asking if QF only use the ERs on those flights.

Thank you for any info.


Historically and for the last few years they have been operated by the ERs due to the extra range the aircraft have. I personally can't recall seeing a non-ER do an antarctica flight but from memory there was a wing shot with the RB-211s from a non-ER on their website.


Personally, I would go and book it.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:57 am

Anyone know why SQ265/266 (SIN-BNE-SIN) has changed to A333 in the last few days from the normal 772? And for how long?
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:22 am

tullamarine wrote:
We don't know the pricing but we can safely assume Linfox has been pretty aggressive with its airport charges to attract D7. We also know that they've invested $50M so they need more than just D7 for the sums to work.


Although the project cost $50m, didn't the Federal government contribute $20m of that, and the Victorian government also contributed some? The required return to Linfox may be quite a bit lower than we might first expect, and therefore they can operate on a lower number of users/flights to make it viable.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:59 am

Velocity7 wrote:
Anyone know why SQ265/266 (SIN-BNE-SIN) has changed to A333 in the last few days from the normal 772? And for how long?


Till about 7 Jan 19. Not sure why but may be due to busier Christmas period (A333 has more seats) or SQ operational problems.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:14 am

I think the next destinations will be DMK and DPS, operated by the Air Asia Group. The deal with Air Asia seems to be built on increasing scale of the operations, which will likely create an even more efficient cost base for both parties.

Congrats AVV and Air Asia X. The terminal looks to be far better than I had expected it to be.

As for future operators, I’m sure they are watching on to see how this goes first. Cebu Pacific, Scoot and potentially even Jetstar could see value in operating there.

I would have said Chinese carriers could be a good market to tap into, but the expansion seems to have slowed there. HNA Group had an MOU with AVV a number of years ago, but that didn’t go anywhere really.

Jetstar could see potential in a few times a week service to NZ, especially with an operation already set up there. I don’t see them being in a rush to try it though.

If a carrier needs feed to fill their flights, AVV don’t be for them. If they can rely on sufficient O&D, it could well be an attractive option though.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:01 pm

Remember for a time Jetstar moved all their MEL operations to AVV, then quickly reversed it and has 2-4x more flights from MEL for most city pairs even though the AVV flights are cheaper.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:35 pm

moa999 wrote:
Remember for a time Jetstar moved all their MEL operations to AVV, then quickly reversed it and has 2-4x more flights from MEL for most city pairs even though the AVV flights are cheaper.


JQ initially had a plan not to offer competing services with QF at MEL.

It flew the routes that were in competition to MEL’s QF flight from AVV instead, including SYD, BNE, ADL and PER, but still operating some other routes from MEL. With the growth of Virgin Blue and then TigerAir, it moved most of its flights to MEL to strengthen its position.

AVV has been a struggle really though, with JQ likely to have left already if not for government investments to subsidise their flights to the airport.

I’m hopeful for the future of the airport, but much of it will rely on the continued population and economic growth of the Geelong region, along with the Wyndham area of outer Melbourne. If it goes ahead, the Australian Education City at Werribee East could also be a significant positive step for the airport too.

Best of luck to all involved.
Last edited by IndianicWorld on Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:28 pm

Air North to launch seasonal2 weekly DRW-TSV-OOL 3 Apr 19 to 20 Oct 19

https://blueswandaily.com/airnorth-to-l ... in-2q2019/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:38 pm

qf789 wrote:
Air New Zealand says there is potential for second seasonal service to PER to become year round, operating A321neo's to PER has been ruled out due to the length of the flight

https://thewest.com.au/news/travel/air- ... 881038452z


This has to be product driven not range related. The NEO can do the stage length even with the heavy pax config that NZ has on the 321N.

Perhaps they could consider some NEO's with a dedicated J and Y+ cabins for routes like this?? I get that this will segment the fleet which is something that NZ are trying hard not to do but I would have thought that some new config NEO's could be used to supplement the widebody east coast and pacific island flights (APW, RAR). Just a thought... I'm sure it's been talked to death in the NZ forum but I haven't looked in there!

moa999 wrote:
Remember for a time Jetstar moved all their MEL operations to AVV, then quickly reversed it and has 2-4x more flights from MEL for most city pairs even though the AVV flights are cheaper.


They never moved all ops to AVV, it was only discussed but never happened. The golden triangle routes were exclusive to AVV, but all other "leisure" routes were still arriving into MEL. They started duplicating SYD and BNE routes to both MEL and AVV after a period of time but I don't recall when that happened.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:05 am

Boof wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Air New Zealand says there is potential for second seasonal service to PER to become year round, operating A321neo's to PER has been ruled out due to the length of the flight

https://thewest.com.au/news/travel/air- ... 881038452z


This has to be product driven not range related. The NEO can do the stage length even with the heavy pax config that NZ has on the 321N.

Perhaps they could consider some NEO's with a dedicated J and Y+ cabins for routes like this?? I get that this will segment the fleet which is something that NZ are trying hard not to do but I would have thought that some new config NEO's could be used to supplement the widebody east coast and pacific island flights (APW, RAR). Just a thought... I'm sure it's been talked to death in the NZ forum but I haven't looked in there!

moa999 wrote:
Remember for a time Jetstar moved all their MEL operations to AVV, then quickly reversed it and has 2-4x more flights from MEL for most city pairs even though the AVV flights are cheaper.


They never moved all ops to AVV, it was only discussed but never happened. The golden triangle routes were exclusive to AVV, but all other "leisure" routes were still arriving into MEL. They started duplicating SYD and BNE routes to both MEL and AVV after a period of time but I don't recall when that happened.


AKL/CHC-PER is 7.5hrs, surely to far for a NEO with a viable payload? Hence NZ not doing it, they aren’t LR’s. As for product NZ don’t have enough routes or aircraft that warrant a sub fleet. Certainly not required to the pacific with a J, W product.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6351
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:06 am

Boof wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Air New Zealand says there is potential for second seasonal service to PER to become year round, operating A321neo's to PER has been ruled out due to the length of the flight

https://thewest.com.au/news/travel/air- ... 881038452z


This has to be product driven not range related. The NEO can do the stage length even with the heavy pax config that NZ has on the 321N.

Perhaps they could consider some NEO's with a dedicated J and Y+ cabins for routes like this?? I get that this will segment the fleet which is something that NZ are trying hard not to do but I would have thought that some new config NEO's could be used to supplement the widebody east coast and pacific island flights (APW, RAR). Just a thought... I'm sure it's been talked to death in the NZ forum but I haven't looked in there!

moa999 wrote:
Remember for a time Jetstar moved all their MEL operations to AVV, then quickly reversed it and has 2-4x more flights from MEL for most city pairs even though the AVV flights are cheaper.


They never moved all ops to AVV, it was only discussed but never happened. The golden triangle routes were exclusive to AVV, but all other "leisure" routes were still arriving into MEL. They started duplicating SYD and BNE routes to both MEL and AVV after a period of time but I don't recall when that happened.


AKL/CHC-PER is 7.5hrs, surely to far for a NEO with a viable payload? Hence NZ not doing it, they aren’t LR’s. As for product NZ don’t have enough routes or aircraft that warrant a sub fleet. Certainly not required to the pacific with a J, W product.
 
Qantas16
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:51 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:44 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Boof wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Air New Zealand says there is potential for second seasonal service to PER to become year round, operating A321neo's to PER has been ruled out due to the length of the flight

https://thewest.com.au/news/travel/air- ... 881038452z


This has to be product driven not range related. The NEO can do the stage length even with the heavy pax config that NZ has on the 321N.

Perhaps they could consider some NEO's with a dedicated J and Y+ cabins for routes like this?? I get that this will segment the fleet which is something that NZ are trying hard not to do but I would have thought that some new config NEO's could be used to supplement the widebody east coast and pacific island flights (APW, RAR). Just a thought... I'm sure it's been talked to death in the NZ forum but I haven't looked in there!

moa999 wrote:
Remember for a time Jetstar moved all their MEL operations to AVV, then quickly reversed it and has 2-4x more flights from MEL for most city pairs even though the AVV flights are cheaper.


They never moved all ops to AVV, it was only discussed but never happened. The golden triangle routes were exclusive to AVV, but all other "leisure" routes were still arriving into MEL. They started duplicating SYD and BNE routes to both MEL and AVV after a period of time but I don't recall when that happened.


AKL/CHC-PER is 7.5hrs, surely to far for a NEO with a viable payload? Hence NZ not doing it, they aren’t LR’s. As for product NZ don’t have enough routes or aircraft that warrant a sub fleet. Certainly not required to the pacific with a J, W product.


Not sure about winds, but AKL-PER is a fair bit shorter than MNL-SYD that PR flies with the A321neo regularly (though a lower density layout)... it would definitely be towards the end of its range though and may not be viable.
 
x1234
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:47 am

I'm a poor student in Chicago USA who wants to visit friends in Melbourne/Sydney. I tried looking up fares directly and they're EXPENSIVE ($2k+). Is there any tips and tricks to get the fare down!? When is the low season for Australia from North America? Maybe fly two different tickets on a Asian airline (e.g. China Eastern) via Shanghai as China Eastern's website doesn't allow me to book Chicago to Melbourne for some reason...
 
x1234
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:54 am

UPDATE: I got it down to $1.1k round-trip on Air New Zealand... Looks like there's no deals at the moment to Oz like there is to Asia...
 
smi0006
Posts: 1954
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:08 am

Interesting update on the QF/AA JV - Feb19 now.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -e-454187/

This quote caught my attention not one I’d previously seen - The airlines have emphasised the economic benefit of their partnership, which tally at $310 million annually. In addition, they have promised to add at least three new routes between Australia and the USA if approved.

I’m thinking BNE-ORD, MEL-DFW, and maybe AA on LAX-MEL (not really a new route). Not sure what else makes sense in the context of a JV with AA? SEA I still don’t see value in at all, and it’s an AS stronghold not AA. Maybe drop the dedicated BNE-LAX, and move it to BNE-SFO to beat UA and BNE-LAX-JFK remains, and if the market grows AA can add a 788 BNE-LAX?
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6351
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:26 am

Qantas16 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Boof wrote:

This has to be product driven not range related. The NEO can do the stage length even with the heavy pax config that NZ has on the 321N.

Perhaps they could consider some NEO's with a dedicated J and Y+ cabins for routes like this?? I get that this will segment the fleet which is something that NZ are trying hard not to do but I would have thought that some new config NEO's could be used to supplement the widebody east coast and pacific island flights (APW, RAR). Just a thought... I'm sure it's been talked to death in the NZ forum but I haven't looked in there!



They never moved all ops to AVV, it was only discussed but never happened. The golden triangle routes were exclusive to AVV, but all other "leisure" routes were still arriving into MEL. They started duplicating SYD and BNE routes to both MEL and AVV after a period of time but I don't recall when that happened.


AKL/CHC-PER is 7.5hrs, surely to far for a NEO with a viable payload? Hence NZ not doing it, they aren’t LR’s. As for product NZ don’t have enough routes or aircraft that warrant a sub fleet. Certainly not required to the pacific with a J, W product.


Not sure about winds, but AKL-PER is a fair bit shorter than MNL-SYD that PR flies with the A321neo regularly (though a lower density layout)... it would definitely be towards the end of its range though and may not be viable.


PR use the LR version
 
QF742
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:00 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:28 am

smi0006 wrote:
Interesting update on the QF/AA JV - Feb19 now.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -e-454187/

This quote caught my attention not one I’d previously seen - The airlines have emphasised the economic benefit of their partnership, which tally at $310 million annually. In addition, they have promised to add at least three new routes between Australia and the USA if approved.

I’m thinking BNE-ORD, MEL-DFW, and maybe AA on LAX-MEL (not really a new route). Not sure what else makes sense in the context of a JV with AA? SEA I still don’t see value in at all, and it’s an AS stronghold not AA. Maybe drop the dedicated BNE-LAX, and move it to BNE-SFO to beat UA and BNE-LAX-JFK remains, and if the market grows AA can add a 788 BNE-LAX?


My guess would be BNE-DFW and MEL-DFW (allowing the 789s to easily rotate through the system) with maybe a split of 3wk from BNE and 4wk MEL.

I think BNE-ORD could be the other, allowing QF to get into the ORD market prior to project sunrise aircraft arriving (which would allow SYD-ORD direct).
 
DeltaB717
Posts: 1528
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:49 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:32 am

Qantas16 wrote:
Not sure about winds, but AKL-PER is a fair bit shorter than MNL-SYD that PR flies with the A321neo regularly (though a lower density layout)... it would definitely be towards the end of its range though and may not be viable.


PER is also more difficult as far as alternates go - even domestic flights carry fuel for diversion from overhead PER to one of ADL, MEL or ASP, so adding to that the extra reserve fuel requirements for international flights would severely impact the aircraft's range. SYD has the luxury of suitable alternates within <1 hour flying time (both NTL and CBR).
 
jrfspa320
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:18 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:54 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
Qantas16 wrote:
Not sure about winds, but AKL-PER is a fair bit shorter than MNL-SYD that PR flies with the A321neo regularly (though a lower density layout)... it would definitely be towards the end of its range though and may not be viable.


PER is also more difficult as far as alternates go - even domestic flights carry fuel for diversion from overhead PER to one of ADL, MEL or ASP, so adding to that the extra reserve fuel requirements for international flights would severely impact the aircraft's range. SYD has the luxury of suitable alternates within <1 hour flying time (both NTL and CBR).


For widebody aircraft yes, but narrowbody aircraft have nearer alternates such as GET or KGI.

I think its more than Air NZ don't wont a short haul product on a medium haul route.
 
Boof
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:16 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:19 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Qantas16 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

AKL/CHC-PER is 7.5hrs, surely to far for a NEO with a viable payload? Hence NZ not doing it, they aren’t LR’s. As for product NZ don’t have enough routes or aircraft that warrant a sub fleet. Certainly not required to the pacific with a J, W product.


Not sure about winds, but AKL-PER is a fair bit shorter than MNL-SYD that PR flies with the A321neo regularly (though a lower density layout)... it would definitely be towards the end of its range though and may not be viable.


PR use the LR version


PR might have some ACT's installed but they don't have LR versions, the first of those was only delivered mid November to Arkia and PR have been flying NEO's to Australia since July.

Not sure if NZ have any ACT's installed on their NEO's (anybody know??), if they don't then the payload hit might be too much for them as it's about 5 tonne hit without them, but I still think this is about on board product rather than range.
Bring back Virgin Blue!
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6351
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:07 am

Boof wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Qantas16 wrote:

Not sure about winds, but AKL-PER is a fair bit shorter than MNL-SYD that PR flies with the A321neo regularly (though a lower density layout)... it would definitely be towards the end of its range though and may not be viable.


PR use the LR version


PR might have some ACT's installed but they don't have LR versions, the first of those was only delivered mid November to Arkia and PR have been flying NEO's to Australia since July.

Not sure if NZ have any ACT's installed on their NEO's (anybody know??), if they don't then the payload hit might be too much for them as it's about 5 tonne hit without them, but I still think this is about on board product rather than range.


Yes my bad sorry I thought PR had LR’s for some reason. AKL-PER in a narrow body would be around 8 hrs similar to SYD/MEL-MNL time wise.

NZ have ordered so far 7 A321’s and 6 A320NEO’s to replace the 13 A320CEO’s so a 1:1 replacement, NZ have 214Y seats which is a fair bit more than PR’s 2 class configuration. I agree in terms of product they want consistency aswell, would they make CHC-PER year round then with an A321 or did the article rule that out aswell?
 
NTLDaz
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:56 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:58 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Boof wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

PR use the LR version


PR might have some ACT's installed but they don't have LR versions, the first of those was only delivered mid November to Arkia and PR have been flying NEO's to Australia since July.

Not sure if NZ have any ACT's installed on their NEO's (anybody know??), if they don't then the payload hit might be too much for them as it's about 5 tonne hit without them, but I still think this is about on board product rather than range.


Yes my bad sorry I thought PR had LR’s for some reason. AKL-PER in a narrow body would be around 8 hrs similar to SYD/MEL-MNL time wise.

NZ have ordered so far 7 A321’s and 6 A320NEO’s to replace the 13 A320CEO’s so a 1:1 replacement, NZ have 214Y seats which is a fair bit more than PR’s 2 class configuration. I agree in terms of product they want consistency aswell, would they make CHC-PER year round then with an A321 or did the article rule that out aswell?


Without being 100% sure of legroom 8 hours in an A320 may be more comfortable than in a 9 abreast 787.

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