mandyhaslott
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VS LHR-TLV

Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:38 pm

A few Israeli outlets reporting VS to start Tel Aviv:

https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-virgin-atlantic-plans-tel-aviv-london-flights-report-1001266134

No idea what the timings are. Maybe using the DXB slots?
 
CrisL
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:52 pm

While I'm not a VS fan, I do hope this is true.

BA prices from London are far too high, which makes TLV almost unaffordable, as for literally only a few more pounds I can go elsewhere.
 
SeanM1997
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:57 pm

Seems unlikely. Rumours about new Virgin Atlantic routes have included Harare, Victoria Falls, Mumbai and now Tel Aviv over the last few months. Yet nothing has come to these.

The DXB flights will be used by BOS flights which gets an evening departure from LHR.

I only see this route operating if the Cobalt slots got used for this route - but then the arrival time wouldn't feed very well into transatlantic traffic.

Whilst I would like to see Heathrow get new routes, I would take this as only speculation - you can be hopeful but not reliant
 
anstar
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:11 pm

Given the amount of LCC competition from London airports (ezy upto 4 times a day) and Wizz... I cant see them starting it... surely there is something better they can do with that slot?
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:27 am

Well they are dropping CUN in 2019 so have some slack
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TC957
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:37 am

Well, VS does have an Israeli CEO now...
 
ChrisKen
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:52 am

CrisL wrote:
While I'm not a VS fan, I do hope this is true.

BA prices from London are far too high, which makes TLV almost unaffordable, as for literally only a few more pounds I can go elsewhere.

There's an orange airline that flies the route from LTN & LGW for half the price. They also offer an arguably better service at the moment.
 
EL-AL
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:24 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
CrisL wrote:

There's an orange airline that flies the route from LTN & LGW for half the price. They also offer an arguably better service at the moment.


Also Standstand, and Wizzair fly daily from LTN to Tel Aviv and twice weekly to Eilat.
every day is a good day to fly
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:33 pm

EL-AL wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
CrisL wrote:

There's an orange airline that flies the route from LTN & LGW for half the price. They also offer an arguably better service at the moment.


Also Standstand, and Wizzair fly daily from LTN to Tel Aviv and twice weekly to Eilat.


You probably mean Stansted. ;)
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ilyagran
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:43 pm

This is not only about LON-TLV market which is currently well served by BA, LY, EZY and Wizz.
BA has two daily widebody flights in the winter and most of them are filled with connecting pax. In fact, frequently TLV-LON with BA is more expensive than TLV-NYC with BA. I wander if VS wants to tap into this market (together with its partner DL).
 
gunnerman
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:40 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
CrisL wrote:
While I'm not a VS fan, I do hope this is true.

BA prices from London are far too high, which makes TLV almost unaffordable, as for literally only a few more pounds I can go elsewhere.

There's an orange airline that flies the route from LTN & LGW for half the price. They also offer an arguably better service at the moment.

Plus the Saturday flights from STN, going to twice-weekly from 1 January.
 
lhrsfosyd
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:59 pm

DL probably wants to expand their TLV-US market share. At the moment they only offer one daily TLV-JFK flight which pales in comparison to UA/LY/BA-AA extensive network. Exploring LHR as a conning hub makes perfect sense given the size of the US route network out of LHR.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:26 pm

lhrsfosyd wrote:
DL probably wants to expand their TLV-US market share. At the moment they only offer one daily TLV-JFK flight which pales in comparison to UA/LY/BA-AA extensive network. Exploring LHR as a conning hub makes perfect sense given the size of the US route network out of LHR.


Why would DL want passengers to connect at LHR when it has ample U.S. connectivity to JFK (and outstanding connectivity via ATL)? The VS TATL network adds nothing to that. Absolutely nothing.
 
lhrsfosyd
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:37 pm

TLV-JFK O&D alone is enormous and it doesn't leave much space for connections. You mention ATL but DL does not fly from ATL to TLV so your example is irrelevant. VS would not add additional destinations but additional capacity which is clearly want they want to do.
 
DAL763ER
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:41 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
CrisL wrote:
While I'm not a VS fan, I do hope this is true.

BA prices from London are far too high, which makes TLV almost unaffordable, as for literally only a few more pounds I can go elsewhere.

There's an orange airline that flies the route from LTN & LGW for half the price. They also offer an arguably better service at the moment.


How is TLV unaffordable on BA? It's at £300 for Economy, which is not dissimilar to other airports in the area, plus you get a widebody on a 4.5hr flight. It's bad enough that flights to the US east coast are starting to drop to around £250 and people are then still complaining about lack of "service".
 
mandyhaslott
Topic Author
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:44 pm

SeanM1997 wrote:
Seems unlikely. Rumours about new Virgin Atlantic routes have included Harare, Victoria Falls, Mumbai and now Tel Aviv over the last few months. Yet nothing has come to these.

The DXB flights will be used by BOS flights which gets an evening departure from LHR.

I only see this route operating if the Cobalt slots got used for this route - but then the arrival time wouldn't feed very well into transatlantic traffic.

Whilst I would like to see Heathrow get new routes, I would take this as only speculation - you can be hopeful but not reliant


I see what you mean, however, I posted this one because not only will VS imminently be getting an Israeli head honcho, but also the outlets are specifying a special charter flight for Eurovision and even which meeting reps from both sides discussed commencement of the flight. The other rumours went no where near into that level of detail.

I'm pretty confident it'll be happening.
 
panamair
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:50 pm

lhrsfosyd wrote:
DL probably wants to expand their TLV-US market share. At the moment they only offer one daily TLV-JFK flight which pales in comparison to UA/LY/BA-AA extensive network. Exploring LHR as a conning hub makes perfect sense given the size of the US route network out of LHR.


DL will be offering a second daily JFK-TLV on the A333 starting summer 2019.
 
LY777
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:54 pm

Which a/c type would VS use on the TLV route?
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,MD83, MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
SeanM1997
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:12 pm

LY777 wrote:
Which a/c type would VS use on the TLV route?


A330-300
 
LY777
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:41 pm

SeanM1997 wrote:
LY777 wrote:
Which a/c type would VS use on the TLV route?


A330-300


Thanks
That would be the most logical choice
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,MD83, MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:53 am

panamair wrote:
lhrsfosyd wrote:
DL probably wants to expand their TLV-US market share. At the moment they only offer one daily TLV-JFK flight which pales in comparison to UA/LY/BA-AA extensive network. Exploring LHR as a conning hub makes perfect sense given the size of the US route network out of LHR.


DL will be offering a second daily JFK-TLV on the A333 starting summer 2019.


NYC-TLV is largely an O&D route though. This is likely because an additional flight is needed. Also, keep in mind that this would require four 242t A330-300s, and DL only has 10 with which to work. You need 2 more for LAX-HND, 1 for ATL-HNL, and 2 for LAX-AMS (and one could be rotating between these destinations). Based on distance and acceptable diversions, the 242t A330-300 is needed for JFK-TLV; a 233t A330-300 cannot be used. (ATL-HNL sometimes sees a 233t A330-300, but that's 3930 nmi.)

Others have said it, but it bears repeating: TLV-JFK and TLV-EWR are O&D. Connections via UA are typically handled via IAD, and UA is increasing capacity with the B78X (a few years ago, it was double-daily B77E; now with S19 it will be B77W and B78X, 1 daily each). There is a reason why LY is extending 747 service on TLV-JFK primarily; those planes, as well as the LY 25/6 and 27/8 to EWR, go out filled to the brim. Connections need to be handled elsewhere. I'm surprised that FI isn't considering KEF-TLV with an early PM arrival and an RON.
 
LY777
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:57 am

Indeed
And I wonder how LY will do when their a/c type will be the 772.
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,MD83, MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
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LuxuryTravelled
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:01 am

It does feel typically Virgin, and a bit of a vanity project. I would put it in the same bracket as ‘Little Red’ or the Sydney extension to Hong Kong. Both big slashes for the headlines, but commercially not lucrative.
 
TC957
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:24 am

LuxuryTravelled wrote:
It does feel typically Virgin, and a bit of a vanity project. I would put it in the same bracket as ‘Little Red’ or the Sydney extension to Hong Kong. Both big slashes for the headlines, but commercially not lucrative.

Maybe, but a TLV service wouldn't come with the financial risks that those two services endured. Crew for example can do out & back same day as the round trip will be still less in duration than some of their long-haul flights.
 
lhrsfosyd
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:33 am

Crew most definitely would not do there and back.
 
Arion640
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:03 am

LuxuryTravelled wrote:
It does feel typically Virgin, and a bit of a vanity project. I would put it in the same bracket as ‘Little Red’ or the Sydney extension to Hong Kong. Both big slashes for the headlines, but commercially not lucrative.


I think the Sydney extension to hong kong did ok, up until the ME3 became a thing. Using the A340 probably didn’t help.
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Galwayman
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:03 am

lhrsfosyd wrote:
Crew most definitely would not do there and back.



Why not? It’s not a particularly long flight from London .
 
[email protected]
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:39 pm

In December 2018, LON-TLV-LON has 52,877 seats:

LHR-TLV: 28,652 seats across 110 flights
LTN-TLV: 17,899 seats across 102 flights - noticing very similar frequency as LHR but clearly LHR has much greater seats/flight from wide-bodies
STN-TLV: 4106 seats across 21
LGW-TLV: 2,220 across 12

In this month:

LHR-TLV: 2x daily BA, 11x weekly LY
LTN-TLV: 11x weekly EZY, 1x daily W9, 4x weekly LY
STN-TLV: 3x weekly Arkia, 1x weekly EZY (2x weekly coming)
LGW-TLV: 2x weekly EZY

Of course, there are various changes for summertime, e.g.

LHR-TLV: BA to 3x daily
LTN-TLV: EZY to 13x weekly and LY to 11x weekly
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gunnerman
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:14 pm

lhrsfosyd wrote:
Crew most definitely would not do there and back.

LHR-TLV would be about 4h 45m, so the return flight can certainly be operated by the same crew. However as VS is not accustomed to doing this kind of return mid-range operation there would need to be an agreement with the flight and cabin crews for this to be done.
 
lhrsfosyd
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:46 pm

gunnerman wrote:
lhrsfosyd wrote:
Crew most definitely would not do there and back.

LHR-TLV would be about 4h 45m, so the return flight can certainly be operated by the same crew. However as VS is not accustomed to doing this kind of return mid-range operation there would need to be an agreement with the flight and cabin crews for this to be done.


Crew report 1.5hrs before the flight, 4h45min to TLV, 1h45min turnaround minimum, 5h30min flight back. That's 13h30min to 14h day which is still legal but doesn't leave room for any delays. Nightstopping a flight in TLV is a lot more expensive than crew accommodation costs, it simply isn't commercially sensible to be doing that on a widebody.
 
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yochai
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:49 pm

Pending slots, they would probably be doing a 9pm departure ex LHR arriving TLV around midnight, RON and depart TLV around 5am arriving into LHR around 7:30am just in time for its first wave of TATL connections.
 
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yochai
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:51 pm

lhrsfosyd wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
lhrsfosyd wrote:
Crew most definitely would not do there and back.

LHR-TLV would be about 4h 45m, so the return flight can certainly be operated by the same crew. However as VS is not accustomed to doing this kind of return mid-range operation there would need to be an agreement with the flight and cabin crews for this to be done.


Crew report 1.5hrs before the flight, 4h45min to TLV, 1h45min turnaround minimum, 5h30min flight back. That's 13h30min to 14h day which is still legal but doesn't leave room for any delays. Nightstopping a flight in TLV is a lot more expensive than crew accommodation costs, it simply isn't commercially sensible to be doing that on a widebody.


And yet, BA,IB,PS and a few more RON in TLV and seem to make it work.
 
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:32 pm

yochai wrote:
Pending slots, they would probably be doing a 9pm departure ex LHR arriving TLV around midnight, RON and depart TLV around 5am arriving into LHR around 7:30am just in time for its first wave of TATL connections.


At the moment, a 2100 departure would arrive around 0400. And a 0530 departure around 0900.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
TC957
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:10 pm

Without a nite-stop, VS will either miss the main US flight arrival wave at LHR or miss it on the return.
Something like LHR-TLV 1330 / 2100 and TLV - LHR 0715 / 1045 would work .
 
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:19 pm

I think we shouldn't forget how enormous LON is by pax from TLV even before 6th freedom traffic is considered, with over 1 million passengers in 2017, i.e. over 2,700 a day excluding seasonality. Hence significant supply:

In December 2018:

LHR-TLV: 2x daily BA, 11x weekly LY
LTN-TLV: 11x weekly EZY, 1x daily W9, 4x weekly LY
STN-TLV: 3x weekly Arkia, 1x weekly EZY (2x weekly coming)
LGW-TLV: 2x weekly EZY

In summertime (e.g., w/c 5th August 2019):

LHR-TLV: BA to 3x daily
LTN-TLV: EZY to 13x weekly and LY to 11x weekly
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
lhrsfosyd
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:23 pm

yochai wrote:
lhrsfosyd wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
LHR-TLV would be about 4h 45m, so the return flight can certainly be operated by the same crew. However as VS is not accustomed to doing this kind of return mid-range operation there would need to be an agreement with the flight and cabin crews for this to be done.


Crew report 1.5hrs before the flight, 4h45min to TLV, 1h45min turnaround minimum, 5h30min flight back. That's 13h30min to 14h day which is still legal but doesn't leave room for any delays. Nightstopping a flight in TLV is a lot more expensive than crew accommodation costs, it simply isn't commercially sensible to be doing that on a widebody.


And yet, BA,IB,PS and a few more RON in TLV and seem to make it work.


You lost your credibility when you mentioned 9pm LHR departure would arrive in TLV around midnight. BA does no do there and back to TLV. You do not know what you're talking about.
 
BA777FO
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:10 pm

gunnerman wrote:
lhrsfosyd wrote:
Crew most definitely would not do there and back.

LHR-TLV would be about 4h 45m, so the return flight can certainly be operated by the same crew. However as VS is not accustomed to doing this kind of return mid-range operation there would need to be an agreement with the flight and cabin crews for this to be done.


It can't - EASA FTLs maximum FDP for a report between 0600-1329 is 13 hours. 1 hour 30 minute brief/report time + 4 hours 45 + 1 hour 30 turnaround (much likely to be longer in reality) + 5 hours 20 return = 13 hours and 5 minutes. So 5 minutes over. Even if you try and knock 5 minutes off the return sector you'd have crew going into discretion for a 1 minute delay so it wouldn't last long.

Any report after 1.30pm would be way outside of FTLs.
 
gunnerman
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:22 pm

Interestingly, bmi used to operate LHR-CAI return with the same crew. The flight times for LHR-CAI are very similar to LHR-TLV, for BA it's 5h 0m and 4h 45m respectively.
 
lhrsfosyd
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:29 pm

gunnerman wrote:
Interestingly, bmi used to operate LHR-CAI return with the same crew. The flight times for LHR-CAI are very similar to LHR-TLV, for BA it's 5h 0m and 4h 45m respectively.


Yeah and on what aircraft?
 
Ryanair01
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:00 am

lhrsfosyd wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
Interestingly, bmi used to operate LHR-CAI return with the same crew. The flight times for LHR-CAI are very similar to LHR-TLV, for BA it's 5h 0m and 4h 45m respectively.


Yeah and on what aircraft?


BMI had the A330 to Cairo for the Google impaired.

Easyjet do TLV as a one day trip from London airports and have made it work reliably for years now. Monarch did too, even from MAN. I personally know guys from both airlines who regularly work (or worked) them. I don't mean to sound rude, but to jump up and down claiming the already routine is impossible, well, it's insanity :swirl:
 
Galwayman
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:26 am

I’m pretty sure Easy and lots of other U.K. airlines did day returns to Sharm el Shek which is possibly a bit further - definitely doable . However there may be greater yields to co-ordinate with TA flights and a night stop could be cost effective
 
 
MON
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:10 pm

I 0730 departure from TLV means nightstopping with FTLs.
Last edited by MON on Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MON
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:10 pm

A 0730 departure from TLV means nightstopping with FTLs.
 
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TheLion
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:13 pm

Interesting news...
 
BA777FO
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:38 pm

Galwayman wrote:
I’m pretty sure Easy and lots of other U.K. airlines did day returns to Sharm el Shek which is possibly a bit further - definitely doable . However there may be greater yields to co-ordinate with TA flights and a night stop could be cost effective


They did and in some cases still do but they often require a dispensation that means that they are required to have a day off before and a day off after the duty - on short haul that becomes quite restrictive.

Short haul turnarounds of 40-45 minutes make this kind of thing somewhat doable. You can't turn around a long haul aircraft that quickly. That's why BA night stops. Moscow is a day trip, TLV is a night stop.

The 0730 departure is obviously designed to capture a piece of the TLV-N. America traffic.
 
mandyhaslott
Topic Author
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:02 am

 
smi0006
Posts: 2058
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:16 am

lhrsfosyd wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
lhrsfosyd wrote:
Crew most definitely would not do there and back.

LHR-TLV would be about 4h 45m, so the return flight can certainly be operated by the same crew. However as VS is not accustomed to doing this kind of return mid-range operation there would need to be an agreement with the flight and cabin crews for this to be done.


Crew report 1.5hrs before the flight, 4h45min to TLV, 1h45min turnaround minimum, 5h30min flight back. That's 13h30min to 14h day which is still legal but doesn't leave room for any delays. Nightstopping a flight in TLV is a lot more expensive than crew accommodation costs, it simply isn't commercially sensible to be doing that on a widebody.


1hr45min turn?! They should be able to do this in 75mins Max.

Always good to see VS expand outside the US!! Hope this route works for them. If only they could get their hands on more slots for more eastward expansion!

Interesting quote - is there anything else on the table?

Shai Weiss, Virgin Atlantic CEO commented: “2019 marks the start of a new phase of growth for Virgin Atlantic as we work to achieve our ambition to become the most loved travel company.
 
BA777FO
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:12 pm

smi0006 wrote:
1hr45min turn?! They should be able to do this in 75mins Max.


If you exclude the time to disembark and reboard ~300 passengers that'd leave you with about 20 minutes to clean and recater the aircraft. Local Israeli procedures do not allow refuelling with passengers onboard either so you'd struggle to refuel in that 15/20 minutes anyway. 1h45 sounds like a typical longhaul turnaround time. This isn't a cheap and cheerful low frills flight.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: VS LHR-TLV

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:33 pm

mandyhaslott wrote:


It's interesting how the paragraph about cargo takes prominence early on in the press release before talking about O&D and connecting passengers. I wonder if VS have identified cargo to/from Israel as lucrative in particular?

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