BlueShamu330s
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DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sat Mar 16, 2002 11:22 pm

Reliably told this morning that Delta is reviewing the performance and continuation of the BOS-LGW-BOS route.

There is some very heavy discounting going on, with the cheapest return fare currently 140 (yes, one hundred and forty) GBP, plus 58 GBP tax, total 198 GBP.

Load factors are rising, but the yield is appalling and the route has been running at a loss since before 9/11.

Considering you can get this fare even for the Easter holiday period (when fares normally rise significantly), the signs aren't looking good for the service.  Sad

Is Gatwick in meltdown, or is it just a reallignment ?

With BA downsizing and EZY expanding, is the traffic orientation thru Gatwick undergoing a major change ?

Is Gatwick's future in short haul, high frequency, low cost services ??

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:20 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again...Delta, please move the BOS-LGW flight to FLL. FLL would be ever grateful, and give you $1M in incentives to top it off. However, from what I hear, BOS-LGW isn't leaving, because if DL wants to grow at BOS, LGW is a key route.
a.
 
padcrasher
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:42 am

I had hoped that DL might see some advantage being the sole airline flying BOS-LGW. The $40 Million new terminal is going ahead. New RJ routes from BOS may provide additional feed. If UA continues to lose money one could hope that they might reevaluate their service out of BOS to LHR. They're most likely losing money in this market as well.

MAH, no doubt FLL could support this service. I'm suprised a UK carrier has not done this already. FLL just does not fit into DL's strategic plans as BOS does.
 
MD88Captain
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:45 am

BOS-LGW may have smaller loads, but CVG/LGW and ATL/LGW are oversold this weekend. I'm flying to LGW tonight with a 48hr layover in Brighton and I couldn't get my family over with me.
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:49 am

Padcrasher, exactly, which is why, bad or good loads, BOS-LGW will probably stay because with DL's plans for BOS it is a key route. No UK carrier has done FLL-LON, but Laker Airways tried FLL-LGW, and did very well, but they had finanical issues and slot isssues with BA, and now they just fly 727s to the Bahammas.
a.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 1:00 am

MD88Captain

Yes, DL is doing very well on all their UK routes, apart from the BOS run.

And before we started to ORD and IAD, Delta was always my carrier of choice across the atlantic...I would still rank BizElite in the top 3 of transatlantic business class products.

I guess my question is, if a carrier as successful as DL is struggling to achieve yield on the run, who can ??

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
madhatter
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 1:34 am

CAnt DL swap it to JFK. Theyd be the only carrier on the route following BA scrapping the route and they have much more Atlantic routings from JFK than BOS?
 
donder10
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 3:46 am

Hi Shamu,
if Open Skies US-UK were to happen would you think Delta would drop BOS-London or attempt to make it work at LHR?
 
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OA412
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:21 am

DL has stated that if USA-UK openskies is achieved, it would move the BOS flight from LGW to LHR.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:49 am

I'm with OA on that one; which brings me back to my other question in a way...
Let's say open skies does go through one day before hell freezes over. Will it leave LGW as a charter and short haul low fares airfield, with the majority of long haul going through LHR ?

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:52 am

As its already been said, if DL wants a real presence at BOS they have to have a flight to LGW. LHR would be better but for now LGW will have to do. I would expect DL will run this route at a loss for quite a while hoping that with time they can build it up.

DL has run BOS-LAX for almost two years and the route is still a loser, but DL keeps it because you have to have LAX service if you want to be a real player.

To be fair though, the BOS-LGW route hasn't really had a chance. DL launched it as the US economy was sliding into a recession and then 9/11 happened. I would like to see how this route runs when the economy is at full strength.

Another key is for DL to keep building up feed add SYR/ROC/ALB/BWI/RIC/JAX-BOS with RJ's. These would could help bolster BOS especially routes like SYR-BOS where US is just running props with no int'l connections.
 
SIA_B777
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:58 am

hi,

could somebody explain openskies to me?
 
David_itl
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 6:08 am


Any US or UK airline having the right to fly LHR-USA, whereas current situation restricts US destinations to around 6 or 7 (?) "areas" with the only permitted airlines being United, American, BA and Virgin. Air India and Kuwait Airways also ply their trade from LHR to the US but started operations before the new Bermuda II regulations came into force.

David/MAN
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 6:13 am

Open skies is basically an agreement between two countries on free and unrestricted air services from the two respective countries. There are no barriers and a carrier can fly from these countries from any destination at any time without restrictions, i.e Bermuda II.

Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 6:30 am

SIA_B777

Explaining Open Skies is like trying to explain the rules of cricket or the offside rule in soccer !!  Big grin

Below is a pretty good link to the US perspective on the subject, plus another link listing all the agreements the USA have with other nations.

http://www.state.gov/www/policy_remarks/2000/000329_larson_aviat.html

http://www.state.gov/www/issues/economic/tra/agrmts_opskies.html

Hope they're interesting for you.

Regards

Shamu


So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 6:47 am

Unfortunately for DL, all the carriers that serve London from Boston use Heathrow, including Virgin, which has moved the flight from LGW. Consequently, with AA, UA, VS, and BA flying to LHR, there is little room for DL and the only way to fill the plane is to discount seats. DL is at a competitive disadvantage not being able to access LHR. I wouldn't be surprised to see the route be dropped.

ContinentalEWR
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 9:05 am

I've wondered why Delta doesn't serve LGW from JFK too.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6878
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 9:13 am

Yes, Delta is at a disadvantage vs. VS, BA, AA, and UA, as all four have the valuable LHR slots (which is what the people up front want), while DL has the LGW slots. Yes, to make this route work, Delta will need to provide more feed into the new BOS hub. Right now, we only have connection feed from YUL, PWM, BGR, MYR, and BTV, with YHZ starting in May. By the time the new terminal is built, I see the following routes being served from Boston on Delta:

Connection: JAX (was flown prior to 9/11 with 2x daily CRJ), YYZ, BUF, ALB, SYR, ROC, PIT, ABE, BWI, CMH, CLE (was flown when DL had TSA before ACA).
Mainline: SFO (738/757), SAN (738), SEA (738), LAS (757/767, was flown pre-9/11), PHX (738), FCO (c/s with AZ, getting feed from both sides and Boston's large Italian population), DUB (there are always a lot of people flying BOS-Ireland, both business and leisure), MAN (this is coming straight from Delta), FRA, and CDG (to supplement AF)

However, IF US Airways goes under (which, if their structure does not change, has a good chance to go under, I believe), I feel that Delta and American will come right on in and snap up any left-over pieces, which with US Airways large presence, will enable both carriers to grow more signifigantly into Boston.

Jeff
 
flashmeister
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 9:29 am

DeltAirlines, a good observation regarding US, but one wrench could be thrown in the works:

It's pretty well-known that US and United have a codeshare agreement of some sort cooking, and if that happens, I'd expect UA to codeshare on a lot of the most lucrative US routes at BOS, PHL, LGA, and DCA.

When US goes under, if United's codeshare has been successful (and a lot of Mileage Plus Elites and high-fare biz pax are flying the routes), I'd expect United to pay heavily to take over the flying on those routes... so, I don't really see a sure-bet (or even a real chance) for Delta to get its hands on the US carcass at BOS...
 
BlueShamu330s
Topic Author
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 9:36 am

DeltAirlines

Lots of welcome info. there.

I'd also been told the same about MAN, but because I've been flamed in the past for mentioning DL and MAN in the same post, I kept quiet.

I don't know if it's the same as you have been told, but my source claims that the daily MAN-JFK-BOS WILL return, but restructured as MAN-BOS-JFK instead and marketed as a non-stop BOS service.

I do believe there is a market and sufficient demand out there for a major Delta BOS operation; perhaps the LGW service was launched just premature to the other development plans DL have for BOS...? Notwithsatnding that, with the benefit of hindsight and from personal work experience, 2001 was a terrible time to launch and invest in any new transatlantic operation.

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Sun Mar 17, 2002 1:21 pm

I wouldn't be too sure about a domestic codeshare between UA and US. Pilots groups on both sides are vehemently against it. I could see US joining Star and doing international codeshare...but domestic is a whole nother ballgame.

JFK-BOS-MAN would be an interesting routing...you get a some JFK traffic plus the rest of the BOS traffic and the route might just work.

DeltAirlines, I think your list of cities if right on. The question is...will DL really have the guts to go through with it??? They've committed to the terminal so hopefully they will.

On a side note, it's dissapointing to see that DL still can't make BOS-DCA work. Ol' USAirways still has a little life left in her.
 
BlueShamu330s
Topic Author
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:12 am

How often is the DL BOS-DCA service these days??

I was ticketed for that route on Dec 05 last year and was given the option at the airport of service to IAD or transfer over to US for DCA.

I took the US option, and apart from the awkward terminal change, was pleasantly surprised at the service.

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
deltairlines
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:32 am

Currently BOS-IAD is 7x daily FRJ-328 on Delta Connection/ACA. I don't know when DCA will come back though. I think Delta will have the guts to follow through on this expansion, as they will be increasing capacity by 67%, so I don't think they want to hold level. They currently have ~150 daily weekday flights from BOS (incl. extra sessions), so this would amount to a total of 200-225 daily flights. Where to, I don't know yet, maybe more hub service, and maybe some of the aforementioned cities. I would wait until mid-year, when Delta should be back in the black ink, to see a major BOS expansion.

Jeff
 
David_itl
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:50 am


Shamu

Looks like December was, on the surface, a very good month for bmi - the IAD service again nudged 55% loads and the ORD route looks like it was pretty much three-quarter full as the total traffic on the route almost doubled.

David/MAN
 
donder10
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:53 am

55%???????Thats not too good really because their yields must be poor.
 
David_itl
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:04 am


I'm led to belive that the cargo carryings on the IAD run are more than making up for any shortfall in passenger revenue!

David
 
BlueShamu330s
Topic Author
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:04 am

Hi David

Those figures sound pretty believable.

Donder, bmi did very little discounting during the period after 9/11, fortunately because the majority of sales had been made in advance.
It's a peculiar fact that the proportion of people who book at the last minute as opposed to well in advance is far less on MAN services (and even less on Scottish services) than on services out of the London airports.
Therefore, the yield is without doubt greater than on a service which is going out full but which has most seats sold at or below cost.

Shamu

So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
Guest

RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:20 am

With regards to DL services, LGW-BOS; as others have said, the high-yield crowd opt for LHR and the carriers that serve BOS from that airport.

It's an extremely unfair situation for non-Bermuda II airlines, who might well make pots of money, given the chance. Roll on open-skies.

>> Is Gatwick's future in short haul, high frequency, low cost services ?? <<

For the forseeable future, my answer would be 'generally, yes'.

Adding an extra runway might well change things.

Don't forget the charters and BA's non-Bermuda II destinations.

Who knows what the future holds for LGW...

 
FlyPNS1
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Tue Mar 19, 2002 3:12 am

Starting next month, the IAD-BOS on ACA's FRJ's will be cancelled and DL will have NO nonstop service from BOS-WAS. Seems kind of pathetic for an airline that has such a large presence in BOS and a reasonably large presence at DCA.
 
MAS777
Posts: 2757
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Thu Mar 21, 2002 3:34 am

For more information for anyone flying into Gatwick - I am starting a new website to for LGW information and information on Brighton.

Go to http://www.angelfire.com/on/khian
 
LH423
Posts: 5869
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Thu Mar 21, 2002 9:44 am

I too wonder if DL will actually put into place some of those services DeltAirlines mentioned. Some of those seem very adventurous, like Phoenix. Phoenix has traditionally been AW territory and no one has challenged that. I truly hope the endeavours work for DL, and that they can finally do what no airline has ever really done: Turn BOS into a hub.

Sure, BOS isn't centrally located, but I think many airlines have often overlooked its strategic location. I mean, who wants to fly from Europe to California by way of Atlanta?! Why fly southwest only to get on a plane and go due west, when you can fly west-southwest and then get on a plane in generally the same direction? Have flights from Europe arrive in Boston, and have convenient connections for domestic and Canadian points! Glad DL finally got the drift. Can't wait for the new terminal!

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
BlueShamu330s
Topic Author
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RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Fri Mar 29, 2002 8:34 am

Again, told reliably today that the BOS-LGW is safe until atleast the end of summer.

Let's hope things improve during the intervening period.

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6878
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: DL @ LGW And Other Questions

Fri Mar 29, 2002 9:34 am

We'll see if the route gets better during the summer season. London is one of the major cities from Boston, and is the most important international city in my opinion from Boston. With United and British Airways both hurting and Delta being in decent shape (maybe only Virgin having a better cash sheet) and American not being in all that great of a shape, maybe Delta can lower the business fares a little and take away some passengers from the LHR carriers. Also, with Delta saying that they could be profitable by the end of the year, I could see some new cities being added from BOS, adding more connection availabilities to the LGW flight, as well as the MXP and CDG codeshares.

Jeff

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