YYZLGA
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Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:23 pm

Since so many of these threads are being created, I thought it would be appropriate to have one for Toronto, given the important service changes that have been happening and the big plans that seem to be coming forward for Pearson.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:18 am

Was running some back of the napkin calculations, next summer will see over 500K additional seats spread across numerous increases (AF, LH, etc) along side AC adding 29 planes, most of which will pass through pretty frequently. Look for ~ 53 million total pax next year barring anything crazy.
 
wave46
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:29 am

whywhyzee wrote:
Was running some back of the napkin calculations, next summer will see over 500K additional seats spread across numerous increases (AF, LH, etc) along side AC adding 29 planes, most of which will pass through pretty frequently. Look for ~ 53 million total pax next year barring anything crazy.


How many passengers can Pearson accommodate in its current form? 50m? 60m?

How 'peaky' is Pearson over the year? I know it accommodates larger numbers during the summer and occasional spurts during the winter. I've only been through it during the slower seasons recently. How's it coping at peak times?
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:48 am

wave46 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
Was running some back of the napkin calculations, next summer will see over 500K additional seats spread across numerous increases (AF, LH, etc) along side AC adding 29 planes, most of which will pass through pretty frequently. Look for ~ 53 million total pax next year barring anything crazy.


How many passengers can Pearson accommodate in its current form? 50m? 60m?

How 'peaky' is Pearson over the year? I know it accommodates larger numbers during the summer and occasional spurts during the winter. I've only been through it during the slower seasons recently. How's it coping at peak times?


It has some seasonal fluctuations, but it has gradually reduced. This year, largest to smallest quarterly variation has been 20%.

Peak times it operates well in excess of capacity. T1 is getting 5 new contact gates this year, they are in advanced stages of construction, as well as 5 new permanent hard stands with enclosed boarding structures. That will add a significant amount of capability and a much better experience this coming year. Last year, they re-opened the infield terminal as an extension of T3 which helps a little, but more gates will be needed.
Worthy of note, 2018 will be the first year in YYZ's history where international service will be the largest numerical segment (domestic has always been the largest, and trans order has always been the smallest.) YYZ is still the second busiest international airport in the Americas, and is rapidly closing in on the number one spot.
 
master14225
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 6:38 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:09 am

YYZ needs that H pier asap, they reached 50 million pax this year for sure which is over capacity of the entire current airport system.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:05 am

Yesterday was the last day of the Buttonville tower. Where has all that GA traffic gone?

https://twitter.com/CATCA5454/status/10 ... 4248712193
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:09 am

whywhyzee wrote:
Peak times it operates well in excess of capacity. T1 is getting 5 new contact gates this year, they are in advanced stages of construction, as well as 5 new permanent hard stands with enclosed boarding structures. That will add a significant amount of capability and a much better experience this coming year. Last year, they re-opened the infield terminal as an extension of T3 which helps a little, but more gates will be needed.


Thanks for the information. Are the new contact gates in the Gate 193 area? Where are the hard stands located?

Ten more gates will certainly take some of the pressure off. I've always been somewhat partial to the idea of mobile lounges, especially in YYZ's climate. Obviously they're a terrible idea as the main means of boarding aircraft, like YMX and old IAD, but they're not a bad way to add flex capacity to be used in peak periods that isn't as uncomfortable as bus boarding.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:10 am

YYZLGA wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
Peak times it operates well in excess of capacity. T1 is getting 5 new contact gates this year, they are in advanced stages of construction, as well as 5 new permanent hard stands with enclosed boarding structures. That will add a significant amount of capability and a much better experience this coming year. Last year, they re-opened the infield terminal as an extension of T3 which helps a little, but more gates will be needed.


Thanks for the information. Are the new contact gates in the Gate 193 area? Where are the hard stands located?

Ten more gates will certainly take some of the pressure off. I've always been somewhat partial to the idea of mobile lounges, especially in YYZ's climate. Obviously they're a terrible idea as the main means of boarding aircraft, like YMX and old IAD, but they're not a bad way to add flex capacity to be used in peak periods that isn't as uncomfortable as bus boarding.


They are on the east side of the old 193 pier, complete new addition, it's much larger, and the bridges will be all glass. The new hardstands are over where the H parking spots on the old apron are, they remind me of the pre new TBIT hardstands at LAX, actual structures, just not connected to the terminal.

I like their current strategy, adding 5 actual gates means they are insulated for the next little while, and it opens more swing gates to international. During the peak summer, the 5 hardstands can handle things like Rouge and aleciate international gate capacity issues at T1 which has plagued it in the past. What may seem like a small addition really is huge considering that if they are used 2x daily by long hauls, that's an additional 10x dailies, plus the 5 new trans orders which will likely see much more than that, which is a huge capacity expansion. Hardstands for 10x daily widebodies alone gives capacity for 6000 additional daily seats at 300 per. Let's say it's only needed 50 days a year, that's still 300k more seats which is pretty sizeable. T1 doesn't need much more, ultimately, building a small, efficient H pier or adding a small southward extension onto the old 193 complex (which is officially called a pier now, can't remember it's letter designator) that could add maybe 2 widebody gates at the end or 4 narrowbody gates would effectively cover much of the ultimate capacity expansion possible before the runways max out. There isn't much need for too many more gates, eventually, I would completely revamped the 193 pier to modern standards, little by little, beginning with a southern extension, adding gates for ~3 widebodies and a new MPL lounge at the end, and maybe build a small eastbound pier h so to speak for widebody transborder, and concert the current transborder pier F to international and domestic.

...and that's just T1.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:44 am

whywhyzee wrote:


Very interesting, thanks. The master plan seems to indicate a lot of these kinds of piecemeal expansions as you describe. It's a great way to avoid the situation of huge capital expansions opening all at once and being half-empty at first. They don't seem to think the runway capacity constraint is coming all that soon, since they don't even plan to build the fourth parallel runway in the next couple decades.

I'm still slightly unclear on the gates on the east side of the 193 pier. The existing pier is at ground level. Will the gates not have jetways or will the new section be raised somehow?

One other more technical question...why do Pearson approaches from the south always head straight for the airport and then turn either left or right, head directly away from the airport a good distance before turning back to line up with the runway. Wouldn't it save a lot of fuel and noise if aircraft just headed directly from flying over Lake Ontario to wherever east or west of the airport they need to turn to line up with the runway? I'm sure there's an operational reason that this is easier and I may be missing something big, but the added ~10 minutes of flying multiplied by dozens of aircraft a day surely amounts to quite a bit.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:11 am

YYZLGA wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:


Very interesting, thanks. The master plan seems to indicate a lot of these kinds of piecemeal expansions as you describe. It's a great way to avoid the situation of huge capital expansions opening all at once and being half-empty at first. They don't seem to think the runway capacity constraint is coming all that soon, since they don't even plan to build the fourth parallel runway in the next couple decades.

I'm still slightly unclear on the gates on the east side of the 193 pier. The existing pier is at ground level. Will the gates not have jetways or will the new section be raised somehow?

One other more technical question...why do Pearson approaches from the south always head straight for the airport and then turn either left or right, head directly away from the airport a good distance before turning back to line up with the runway. Wouldn't it save a lot of fuel and noise if aircraft just headed directly from flying over Lake Ontario to wherever east or west of the airport they need to turn to line up with the runway? I'm sure there's an operational reason that this is easier and I may be missing something big, but the added ~10 minutes of flying multiplied by dozens of aircraft a day surely amounts to quite a bit.


You mean like YYC? What a blunder there

As for traffic coming into YYZ. Planes are coming from North, East, South and West. The bottleneck that would ensue if you sent all of these arrivals to downwind bedposts would be huge. Add to that departures you need to get them up and enroute as well. They’re the ones burning the most gas and making the most noise.

The arrivals you speak of entering over LINNG need to be metered with arrivals coming from the other bedpost fixes. Sending them to a base entry leg to final would require lots of speed restriction further out, increasing ATS workload. Usually things work quite well. The days of the 20nm downwind seem to be gone. They happen but only occasionally.

As bad a rap YYZ gets, you rarely hold. Now if those pilots at WestJet would fly and descend at jet speeds we wouldnt have to slow down 150nm out. 250 knots descent speeds.

Silly owners.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:10 pm

Effective Mar 31, YYZ gets the A350-900. Luthansa from Munich and Philippine Airlines from Manila.

Also Air Italy from Milan in the summer but my focus was the A350 :).
 
Dominion301
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:46 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
Yesterday was the last day of the Buttonville tower. Where has all that GA traffic gone?

https://twitter.com/CATCA5454/status/10 ... 4248712193


I think a lot of it left in anticipation of the airport itself closing, but some of it came back now that it's confirmed the airport will remain open until at least 2023.

Closing the tower is controversial as Nav Can based it on 2017 aircraft movements, while 2018 saw a substantial increase in movements. Seems like it's a big risk to have not only no tower. They didn't even convert to a Flight Service Station, is that right?
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:23 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:


Very interesting, thanks. The master plan seems to indicate a lot of these kinds of piecemeal expansions as you describe. It's a great way to avoid the situation of huge capital expansions opening all at once and being half-empty at first. They don't seem to think the runway capacity constraint is coming all that soon, since they don't even plan to build the fourth parallel runway in the next couple decades.

I'm still slightly unclear on the gates on the east side of the 193 pier. The existing pier is at ground level. Will the gates not have jetways or will the new section be raised somehow?

One other more technical question...why do Pearson approaches from the south always head straight for the airport and then turn either left or right, head directly away from the airport a good distance before turning back to line up with the runway. Wouldn't it save a lot of fuel and noise if aircraft just headed directly from flying over Lake Ontario to wherever east or west of the airport they need to turn to line up with the runway? I'm sure there's an operational reason that this is easier and I may be missing something big, but the added ~10 minutes of flying multiplied by dozens of aircraft a day surely amounts to quite a bit.


Actual jet bridges. They have built an entirely new structure connected to the pre-existing pier.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:51 pm

Somewhat newsworthy, I noticed an American Eagle flight use the IFT today. AA wasn't one of the original users, so this means it's likely being used as overflow.
 
DrewFOC
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:01 am

Great to see a thread for my primary home airport.
I think it's worth noting that HU recently extended its PEK-YYZ route to CKG, making it YYZ's first destination to secondary/inland Chinese cities. YVR has been getting all those secondary routes instead of YYZ (capacity or policy restrictions?) But CKG still came as a surprise for me as I would have expected destinations like CTU to SZX to come first. Wonder why HU chose CKG and how that route has been doing so far.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:09 am

DrewFOC wrote:
Great to see a thread for my primary home airport.
I think it's worth noting that HU recently extended its PEK-YYZ route to CKG, making it YYZ's first destination to secondary/inland Chinese cities. YVR has been getting all those secondary routes instead of YYZ (capacity or policy restrictions?) But CKG still came as a surprise for me as I would have expected destinations like CTU to SZX to come first. Wonder why HU chose CKG and how that route has been doing so far.


A lot of YVRs gains are two fold - primarily, YVR has a huge asian heritage population, which naturally draws more asian pax in. Secondly, it is significantly closer to china, permitting A330 operations. Most secondary Chinese airlines don't yet have equipment that can even reach YYZ.

The HU route still always goes through PEK, this extra add on just simplifies onward flow. As it stands, the Canada-China bilateral is full, so no further flights can be added.

Separate Update on T1 construction: the old gate 193 complex will be called Pier G moving forward, as it gains 5 jet bridges on thetas side, as well as a significantly increased structure and waiting area. Construction on Pier H has also just begun. That will be the new pier added to the eastern end of T1, adding between 10 and 12 gates, including 4 gates for widebodies from what I can tell. This pier as far as I know is intended to serve transborder flights, so, upon it's completion, most of the current transferred area can likely be converted to international with the capability to swing to transborder to accommodate times with more than 4 US bound wide bodies at a time (early mornings come to mind). Where we stand, net year will see 10 more gates available, and 2020 should see Pier H nearing completion or complete and somewhat operational. Huge chance for AC and Star Alliance to expand capacity, especially at peak times.

No update yet on T3 expansion, it is still pending the demolition of the old AC hangar which is supposedly set to take place this year. In that case however, the IFT continues to be an option they take advantage of to offer more capacity with very limited expenditure.
 
master14225
Posts: 180
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:17 am

Are they doing the Pier H construction in phases or the entire pier in one go?

whywhyzee wrote:
DrewFOC wrote:
Great to see a thread for my primary home airport.
I think it's worth noting that HU recently extended its PEK-YYZ route to CKG, making it YYZ's first destination to secondary/inland Chinese cities. YVR has been getting all those secondary routes instead of YYZ (capacity or policy restrictions?) But CKG still came as a surprise for me as I would have expected destinations like CTU to SZX to come first. Wonder why HU chose CKG and how that route has been doing so far.


A lot of YVRs gains are two fold - primarily, YVR has a huge asian heritage population, which naturally draws more asian pax in. Secondly, it is significantly closer to china, permitting A330 operations. Most secondary Chinese airlines don't yet have equipment that can even reach YYZ.

The HU route still always goes through PEK, this extra add on just simplifies onward flow. As it stands, the Canada-China bilateral is full, so no further flights can be added.

Separate Update on T1 construction: the old gate 193 complex will be called Pier G moving forward, as it gains 5 jet bridges on thetas side, as well as a significantly increased structure and waiting area. Construction on Pier H has also just begun. That will be the new pier added to the eastern end of T1, adding between 10 and 12 gates, including 4 gates for widebodies from what I can tell. This pier as far as I know is intended to serve transborder flights, so, upon it's completion, most of the current transferred area can likely be converted to international with the capability to swing to transborder to accommodate times with more than 4 US bound wide bodies at a time (early mornings come to mind). Where we stand, net year will see 10 more gates available, and 2020 should see Pier H nearing completion or complete and somewhat operational. Huge chance for AC and Star Alliance to expand capacity, especially at peak times.

No update yet on T3 expansion, it is still pending the demolition of the old AC hangar which is supposedly set to take place this year. In that case however, the IFT continues to be an option they take advantage of to offer more capacity with very limited expenditure.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:20 pm

master14225 wrote:
Are they doing the Pier H construction in phases or the entire pier in one go?

whywhyzee wrote:
DrewFOC wrote:
Great to see a thread for my primary home airport.
I think it's worth noting that HU recently extended its PEK-YYZ route to CKG, making it YYZ's first destination to secondary/inland Chinese cities. YVR has been getting all those secondary routes instead of YYZ (capacity or policy restrictions?) But CKG still came as a surprise for me as I would have expected destinations like CTU to SZX to come first. Wonder why HU chose CKG and how that route has been doing so far.


A lot of YVRs gains are two fold - primarily, YVR has a huge asian heritage population, which naturally draws more asian pax in. Secondly, it is significantly closer to china, permitting A330 operations. Most secondary Chinese airlines don't yet have equipment that can even reach YYZ.

The HU route still always goes through PEK, this extra add on just simplifies onward flow. As it stands, the Canada-China bilateral is full, so no further flights can be added.

Separate Update on T1 construction: the old gate 193 complex will be called Pier G moving forward, as it gains 5 jet bridges on thetas side, as well as a significantly increased structure and waiting area. Construction on Pier H has also just begun. That will be the new pier added to the eastern end of T1, adding between 10 and 12 gates, including 4 gates for widebodies from what I can tell. This pier as far as I know is intended to serve transborder flights, so, upon it's completion, most of the current transferred area can likely be converted to international with the capability to swing to transborder to accommodate times with more than 4 US bound wide bodies at a time (early mornings come to mind). Where we stand, net year will see 10 more gates available, and 2020 should see Pier H nearing completion or complete and somewhat operational. Huge chance for AC and Star Alliance to expand capacity, especially at peak times.

No update yet on T3 expansion, it is still pending the demolition of the old AC hangar which is supposedly set to take place this year. In that case however, the IFT continues to be an option they take advantage of to offer more capacity with very limited expenditure.


Not certain, if I had to guess, it'll be phased. They only have half of the pier footprint currently undergoing work, so I imagine it'll first be the section that goes east/west along the edge of the airside area before the southwards extension.
 
YKF
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:31 pm

Are there any photos of the construction currently underway or any links available that describe this work?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:03 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
Somewhat newsworthy, I noticed an American Eagle flight use the IFT today. AA wasn't one of the original users, so this means it's likely being used as overflow.


The regional “farm” on the corner of T-3 (A7 IINM) has been a huge mess for a while. Encore’s refusal to use carts for gate checked bags is part of - but not the whole - issue.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:03 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
Somewhat newsworthy, I noticed an American Eagle flight use the IFT today. AA wasn't one of the original users, so this means it's likely being used as overflow.


The regional “farm” on the corner of T-3 (A7 IINM) has been a huge mess for a while. Encore’s refusal to use carts for gate checked bags is part of - but not the whole - issue.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
master14225
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 6:38 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:54 pm

ah, I was hoping that it would be something like the Terminal 1 rebuild at SFO.

whywhyzee wrote:
master14225 wrote:
Are they doing the Pier H construction in phases or the entire pier in one go?

whywhyzee wrote:

A lot of YVRs gains are two fold - primarily, YVR has a huge asian heritage population, which naturally draws more asian pax in. Secondly, it is significantly closer to china, permitting A330 operations. Most secondary Chinese airlines don't yet have equipment that can even reach YYZ.

The HU route still always goes through PEK, this extra add on just simplifies onward flow. As it stands, the Canada-China bilateral is full, so no further flights can be added.

Separate Update on T1 construction: the old gate 193 complex will be called Pier G moving forward, as it gains 5 jet bridges on thetas side, as well as a significantly increased structure and waiting area. Construction on Pier H has also just begun. That will be the new pier added to the eastern end of T1, adding between 10 and 12 gates, including 4 gates for widebodies from what I can tell. This pier as far as I know is intended to serve transborder flights, so, upon it's completion, most of the current transferred area can likely be converted to international with the capability to swing to transborder to accommodate times with more than 4 US bound wide bodies at a time (early mornings come to mind). Where we stand, net year will see 10 more gates available, and 2020 should see Pier H nearing completion or complete and somewhat operational. Huge chance for AC and Star Alliance to expand capacity, especially at peak times.

No update yet on T3 expansion, it is still pending the demolition of the old AC hangar which is supposedly set to take place this year. In that case however, the IFT continues to be an option they take advantage of to offer more capacity with very limited expenditure.


Not certain, if I had to guess, it'll be phased. They only have half of the pier footprint currently undergoing work, so I imagine it'll first be the section that goes east/west along the edge of the airside area before the southwards extension.
 
YYZLGA
Topic Author
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:30 am

I am a bit baffled by how and why the GTAA keeps these significant expansions so quiet. They seem to have made no real announcements about the Pier H construction or about the big upgrade to the Gate 193 complex.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:36 am

That's the GTAA's style, they never seem to make big announcements, they are building a brand new FBO as well on the south side...no mention of it. No real mention of the re-actovation of the IFT last year either.
 
YYZLGA
Topic Author
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:28 am

It's strange to me, especially since so many people have complained about the low quality of the transborder RJ area at Gate 193 and you'd think they'd want people to know it's much better now.

The other big problem is the F hammerhead pier. At evening peaks, it becomes extremely overcrowded, to the point that it's hard to walk around when people are queueing for flights. In their master plan, they mentioned the possibility of moving some of the retail up to the second floor, which might help. I remember when it first opened, it was quite spacious, but it has gradually filled up with shops and restaurants.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:03 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
It's strange to me, especially since so many people have complained about the low quality of the transborder RJ area at Gate 193 and you'd think they'd want people to know it's much better now.

The other big problem is the F hammerhead pier. At evening peaks, it becomes extremely overcrowded, to the point that it's hard to walk around when people are queueing for flights. In their master plan, they mentioned the possibility of moving some of the retail up to the second floor, which might help. I remember when it first opened, it was quite spacious, but it has gradually filled up with shops and restaurants.


I think by in large, the issue is, they don't really have to care all that much, they improve and expand, but that doesn't really attract customers in a traditional sense. This information is conveyed to airline tenants, the travelling public will still travel, the quality of the airport likely has little to do with the situation.

Moving some retail upstairs would be interesting, but I imagine they also want to preserve space for lounge expansion. I think the expansion is the best way to address these issues, and they seem to be really dedicated to that plan.

In any case, it's a good step, this year should see some fairly significant growth, BA, LOT, PAL, KLM, AF, Condor, FI, LH, UA, AC, TS, WS, DL and WG are all expanding their operations to some degree.

T3 will have the IFT for growth, and the yet to be commenced expansion plans, T1 will have G and soon H.
 
whywhyzee
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Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:52 pm

AC are purchasing another 2 A320s, this time from Interjet. All the more reason to hurry up the expansion.

They are planned to arrive in September, and come as an addition to the 18 max, 4 A333, 2 789, 4 A321 and 1 CS300 arriving this year.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:40 pm

TS increase frequencies between YYZ and ZAG.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ts-in-s19/
I have discovered that once people are truly captivated in their ignorance, they are generally unwilling to let the facts interfere.
(Rick Drury's Flightlines "Paychecks", Airways April 2003)
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:50 am

LOT has further expanded YYZ to 12x weekly this coming summer. 8x 789, 4x 788.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-10jan19/

This should easily place YYZ as the top intercontinental destination from WAW. Peak one way seats weekly will be 5313.

TAP has also scheduled A330neo service to YYZ commencing on March 31st with variable frequency.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ce-in-s19/
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:56 am

sixtyseven wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:


Very interesting, thanks. The master plan seems to indicate a lot of these kinds of piecemeal expansions as you describe. It's a great way to avoid the situation of huge capital expansions opening all at once and being half-empty at first. They don't seem to think the runway capacity constraint is coming all that soon, since they don't even plan to build the fourth parallel runway in the next couple decades.

I'm still slightly unclear on the gates on the east side of the 193 pier. The existing pier is at ground level. Will the gates not have jetways or will the new section be raised somehow?

One other more technical question...why do Pearson approaches from the south always head straight for the airport and then turn either left or right, head directly away from the airport a good distance before turning back to line up with the runway. Wouldn't it save a lot of fuel and noise if aircraft just headed directly from flying over Lake Ontario to wherever east or west of the airport they need to turn to line up with the runway? I'm sure there's an operational reason that this is easier and I may be missing something big, but the added ~10 minutes of flying multiplied by dozens of aircraft a day surely amounts to quite a bit.


You mean like YYC? What a blunder there

As for traffic coming into YYZ. Planes are coming from North, East, South and West. The bottleneck that would ensue if you sent all of these arrivals to downwind bedposts would be huge. Add to that departures you need to get them up and enroute as well. They’re the ones burning the most gas and making the most noise.

The arrivals you speak of entering over LINNG need to be metered with arrivals coming from the other bedpost fixes. Sending them to a base entry leg to final would require lots of speed restriction further out, increasing ATS workload. Usually things work quite well. The days of the 20nm downwind seem to be gone. They happen but only occasionally.

As bad a rap YYZ gets, you rarely hold. Now if those pilots at WestJet would fly and descend at jet speeds we wouldnt have to slow down 150nm out. 250 knots descent speeds.

Silly owners.


As long as you guys are doing 2 kts taxi speed we’ll fly the programmed descent speeds. :P
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:

Very interesting, thanks. The master plan seems to indicate a lot of these kinds of piecemeal expansions as you describe. It's a great way to avoid the situation of huge capital expansions opening all at once and being half-empty at first. They don't seem to think the runway capacity constraint is coming all that soon, since they don't even plan to build the fourth parallel runway in the next couple decades.

I'm still slightly unclear on the gates on the east side of the 193 pier. The existing pier is at ground level. Will the gates not have jetways or will the new section be raised somehow?

One other more technical question...why do Pearson approaches from the south always head straight for the airport and then turn either left or right, head directly away from the airport a good distance before turning back to line up with the runway. Wouldn't it save a lot of fuel and noise if aircraft just headed directly from flying over Lake Ontario to wherever east or west of the airport they need to turn to line up with the runway? I'm sure there's an operational reason that this is easier and I may be missing something big, but the added ~10 minutes of flying multiplied by dozens of aircraft a day surely amounts to quite a bit.


You mean like YYC? What a blunder there

As for traffic coming into YYZ. Planes are coming from North, East, South and West. The bottleneck that would ensue if you sent all of these arrivals to downwind bedposts would be huge. Add to that departures you need to get them up and enroute as well. They’re the ones burning the most gas and making the most noise.

The arrivals you speak of entering over LINNG need to be metered with arrivals coming from the other bedpost fixes. Sending them to a base entry leg to final would require lots of speed restriction further out, increasing ATS workload. Usually things work quite well. The days of the 20nm downwind seem to be gone. They happen but only occasionally.

As bad a rap YYZ gets, you rarely hold. Now if those pilots at WestJet would fly and descend at jet speeds we wouldnt have to slow down 150nm out. 250 knots descent speeds.

Silly owners.


As long as you guys are doing 2 kts taxi speed we’ll fly the programmed descent speeds. :P


I think if anyone should be taxiing slow it’d be you guys. Wasn’t your contract going to be signed in December?

Only in Canada could some fool descend from 410 at 260 knots. 290 min anywhere efficient.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1315
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:41 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:

You mean like YYC? What a blunder there

As for traffic coming into YYZ. Planes are coming from North, East, South and West. The bottleneck that would ensue if you sent all of these arrivals to downwind bedposts would be huge. Add to that departures you need to get them up and enroute as well. They’re the ones burning the most gas and making the most noise.

The arrivals you speak of entering over LINNG need to be metered with arrivals coming from the other bedpost fixes. Sending them to a base entry leg to final would require lots of speed restriction further out, increasing ATS workload. Usually things work quite well. The days of the 20nm downwind seem to be gone. They happen but only occasionally.

As bad a rap YYZ gets, you rarely hold. Now if those pilots at WestJet would fly and descend at jet speeds we wouldnt have to slow down 150nm out. 250 knots descent speeds.

Silly owners.


As long as you guys are doing 2 kts taxi speed we’ll fly the programmed descent speeds. :P


I think if anyone should be taxiing slow it’d be you guys. Wasn’t your contract going to be signed in December?

Only in Canada could some fool descend from 410 at 260 knots. 290 min anywhere efficient.


The contract was done in Dec, flying/taxiing fast or slow wouldn’t have changed anything. Consider it block growth, been stuck behind a few of your MAXs too....not flying any quicker.
 
krisyyz
Posts: 1287
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:48 pm

YKF wrote:
Are there any photos of the construction currently underway or any links available that describe this work?


Yes, but it's in a closed FB group, you can request to join. Someone who works there says the work has been dormant for the last few months.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/4346187 ... 519011885/


KrisYYZ
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 5885
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:52 pm

CH-aviation reports that TS has dropped its plans to launch YYZ-SPU this summer. I guess the freed capacity is to be used on ZAG's third frequency.
I have discovered that once people are truly captivated in their ignorance, they are generally unwilling to let the facts interfere.
(Rick Drury's Flightlines "Paychecks", Airways April 2003)
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 896
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:44 pm

krisyyz wrote:
YKF wrote:
Are there any photos of the construction currently underway or any links available that describe this work?


Yes, but it's in a closed FB group, you can request to join. Someone who works there says the work has been dormant for the last few months.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/4346187 ... 519011885/


KrisYYZ


From the same group, the new construction has just recently commenced.
 
master14225
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 6:38 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:16 pm

Sent a request 2 days ago, they never accepted.

krisyyz wrote:
YKF wrote:
Are there any photos of the construction currently underway or any links available that describe this work?


Yes, but it's in a closed FB group, you can request to join. Someone who works there says the work has been dormant for the last few months.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/4346187 ... 519011885/


KrisYYZ
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:42 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:

As long as you guys are doing 2 kts taxi speed we’ll fly the programmed descent speeds. :P


I think if anyone should be taxiing slow it’d be you guys. Wasn’t your contract going to be signed in December?

Only in Canada could some fool descend from 410 at 260 knots. 290 min anywhere efficient.


The contract was done in Dec, flying/taxiing fast or slow wouldn’t have changed anything. Consider it block growth, been stuck behind a few of your MAXs too....not flying any quicker.


I just looked at the “award”. Was hoping for better for you guys. I guess at the end of the day you have a baseline to start from.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 896
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:14 pm

Egyptair to debut the 789 on Cairo-Toronto as of next October. Huge improvement in on board product, now just hoping for more frequency in light of their recent bilateral expansion.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1315
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:34 am

sixtyseven wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:

I think if anyone should be taxiing slow it’d be you guys. Wasn’t your contract going to be signed in December?

Only in Canada could some fool descend from 410 at 260 knots. 290 min anywhere efficient.


The contract was done in Dec, flying/taxiing fast or slow wouldn’t have changed anything. Consider it block growth, been stuck behind a few of your MAXs too....not flying any quicker.


I just looked at the “award”. Was hoping for better for you guys. I guess at the end of the day you have a baseline to start from.


Yeah, I was honestly worried we’d lose more then gained and I think we did pretty good. My expectation was pretty low, or realistic, compared to some. No way we were getting a 30-40% raise like was being promised.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 896
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:08 am

With the new Jazz CPA, it looks like (read: it's going to happen, just hasn't been 'officially' announced) YYZ will get a Jazz RJ base, and the Dash 8 100s will likely be replaced by Q400 and Dash 8 300 flying. Will put the new pier G to good use.
 
master14225
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 6:38 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:39 pm

I'm wondering as to when will AC announce new routes out of YYZ, every other airline has added new routes out of many airports except for AC this year. Also VIE doesn't count because it's just a fleet upgrade to me as OS is part of star alliance.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 896
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:44 pm

[*]
master14225 wrote:
I'm wondering as to when will AC announce new routes out of YYZ, every other airline has added new routes out of many airports except for AC this year. Also VIE doesn't count because it's just a fleet upgrade to me as OS is part of star alliance.


They likely won't, not much if any. They have already announced their summer schedule and their entire longhaul fleet is allocated. They may introduce some more rouge flying with the addition of the ex WOW A321s, or potentially add in some more max flying to the states. Beyond that, AC is maxed out.
 
master14225
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 6:38 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:46 pm

Maxed out as in profitable routes or maxed out at YYZ terminal 1?

whywhyzee wrote:
[*]
master14225 wrote:
I'm wondering as to when will AC announce new routes out of YYZ, every other airline has added new routes out of many airports except for AC this year. Also VIE doesn't count because it's just a fleet upgrade to me as OS is part of star alliance.


They likely won't, not much if any. They have already announced their summer schedule and their entire longhaul fleet is allocated. They may introduce some more rouge flying with the addition of the ex WOW A321s, or potentially add in some more max flying to the states. Beyond that, AC is maxed out.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 896
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:56 pm

master14225 wrote:
Maxed out as in profitable routes or maxed out at YYZ terminal 1?

whywhyzee wrote:
[*]
master14225 wrote:
I'm wondering as to when will AC announce new routes out of YYZ, every other airline has added new routes out of many airports except for AC this year. Also VIE doesn't count because it's just a fleet upgrade to me as OS is part of star alliance.


They likely won't, not much if any. They have already announced their summer schedule and their entire longhaul fleet is allocated. They may introduce some more rouge flying with the addition of the ex WOW A321s, or potentially add in some more max flying to the states. Beyond that, AC is maxed out.


Maxed out in terms of airplanes available, and maxed out in terms of T1. They have enough routes to occupy their entire long haul fleet.

Remember, they did announce numerous changes this year, VIE, they increased a number of Rouge flights including ATH and TXL, ICN goes to the 77W, FRA is double daily 777 (1x 77W, 1x 77L), ZRH to 789, among other changes.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4430
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:25 pm

master14225 wrote:
I'm wondering as to when will AC announce new routes out of YYZ, every other airline has added new routes out of many airports except for AC this year. Also VIE doesn't count because it's just a fleet upgrade to me as OS is part of star alliance.


What new route has Air Canada left uncovered? Have you been asleep since 2010 - look at how many routes AC has added at pearson.

And Vienna is a new route, it's Air Canada allocating one of its $250+Million dollar airplanes to a route is not a decision that is taken lightly. This is a massive investment in Toronto.
 
Flightsimboy
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:49 pm

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:49 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
Egyptair to debut the 789 on Cairo-Toronto as of next October. Huge improvement in on board product, now just hoping for more frequency in light of their recent bilateral expansion.


Another Boeing 777-300ER gone. KE, SV (of course gone gone). PR no more past Mar 31. TK may be next with the Dreamliners. AF, KL & PK have all been sending the 773ER sometimes. EY hasn't bothered to paint the rest of the 773ERs and the ones they send are still in the old colours. You never know BR may be next too. MU too has the A350s.

On a side note the A330NEO is one sexy beast!! Will have to hope TAP comes in a bit early some nice summer day.
 
dozerman
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:52 pm

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:31 am

Flightsimboy wrote:
TK may be next with the Dreamliners.


Not a chance, unless the government grants more frequency rights to TK. They currently fly 6 weekly to YYZ and 3 weekly to YUL. IST-YYZ is one of the highest load factor routes in TK's network, so they fly their largest equipment (77W) to YYZ. TK has shown interest in YVR, so even if they get a couple additional frequencies, they probably would bump YYZ to daily and start a flight to YVR. I do not see them using anything smaller than 77W if they don't have more than daily flights to YYZ.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 896
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:09 am

Flightsimboy wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
Egyptair to debut the 789 on Cairo-Toronto as of next October. Huge improvement in on board product, now just hoping for more frequency in light of their recent bilateral expansion.


Another Boeing 777-300ER gone. KE, SV (of course gone gone). PR no more past Mar 31. TK may be next with the Dreamliners. AF, KL & PK have all been sending the 773ER sometimes. EY hasn't bothered to paint the rest of the 773ERs and the ones they send are still in the old colours. You never know BR may be next too. MU too has the A350s.

On a side note the A330NEO is one sexy beast!! Will have to hope TAP comes in a bit early some nice summer day.


Worth noting that all the 77Ws replaced have also come with increases in frequency that have produced overall growth.
 
Flightsimboy
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:49 pm

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:29 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
Flightsimboy wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
Egyptair to debut the 789 on Cairo-Toronto as of next October. Huge improvement in on board product, now just hoping for more frequency in light of their recent bilateral expansion.


Another Boeing 777-300ER gone. KE, SV (of course gone gone). PR no more past Mar 31. TK may be next with the Dreamliners. AF, KL & PK have all been sending the 773ER sometimes. EY hasn't bothered to paint the rest of the 773ERs and the ones they send are still in the old colours. You never know BR may be next too. MU too has the A350s.

On a side note the A330NEO is one sexy beast!! Will have to hope TAP comes in a bit early some nice summer day.


Worth noting that all the 77Ws replaced have also come with increases in frequency that have produced overall growth.


Size matters lol. Miss those days with the A346s.
 
master14225
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 6:38 am

Re: Toronto Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:55 pm

Anyone know if maybe NH or JL will start a daily route to YYZ in maybe 2020 once slots open up at NRT or HND?

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