DENflyer10
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Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:56 pm

After a phenomenal 2018 where airlines added service to 20 previously unserved destinations what are your predictions on the next new airlines and destinations to be added in 2019?

I recall Aer Lingus with service to Dublin was thrown into the rumor mill as well as TK to IST. Can't wait to see what the future holds for DEN once the gate expansion and Great Hall overhaul are complete.
 
jplatts
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:13 am

While UA already serves RIC nonstop from DEN, RIC is located in the largest U.S. market that currently doesn't have any nonstop service to DEN on any LCC's. While WN is unlikely to add RIC-DEN nonstop service, I could see F9 entering RIC and adding DEN-RIC nonstop service.

Even though F9 hasn't yet announced DEN-BOS nonstop service, F9 is likely to add DEN-BOS nonstop service since (a) BOS is located in the largest market that F9 doesn't currently serve nonstop from DEN, (b) F9 has announced BOS-MCO and BOS-RDU nonstop service this week, and (c) there are currently no ULCC's serving BOS nonstop from DEN (even though both WN and B6 already serve BOS from DEN).

F9 could also add ROC-DEN nonstop service if UA or WN doesn't add ROC-DEN nonstop service since ROC is located in the largest U.S. market that doesn't currently have any nonstop service to DEN.

While F9 has recently reentered many of the destinations that it previously pulled out of, F9 hasn't yet re-entered ANC or DAY. I could see F9 possibly re-entering ANC and DAY. There is enough demand for F9 service out of CVG if it re-enters DAY since (a) F9 will likely have a much smaller presence at DAY than it currently does at CVG if it re-enters DAY, (b) F9 already carries over 1,000,000 million passengers per year out of CVG, and (c) F9 has nonstop service out of CVG to destinations that it will never serve nonstop from DAY.

Even though F9 has recently started service out of SRQ, F9 doesn't currently serve DEN nonstop from SRQ, and F9 could add DEN-SRQ nonstop service.

I am surprised that F9 hasn't yet added DEN-TTN nonstop service, even though TTN is one of the largest F9 stations in the Northeast. While TTN's main runway is 6006' long, LGA's longest runway is only 997' longer than TTN's main runway is, and LGA already has seasonal nonstop service from DEN on F9. I think that TTN might be able to handle nonstop service to DEN on A320neo planes.

F9 will very likely announce nonstop service out of DEN to at least 1 or 2 more East Coast destinations this year.
 
Fargo
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:23 am

Isn’t DEN trying to recruit EK? Denver may not be big enough of a market for them.

Biggest things that need to happen is UA building up to 600 flights and upgauging to mainline and larger RJ’s.
 
jplatts
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:44 am

Does anyone know what the load factors are like on the DEN-LBB nonstop route? WN can likely make DEN-MAF nonstop service work if WN is doing well on the DEN-LBB nonstop route since there is more demand for WN service out of MAF than there is out of LBB.

There are a few other nonstop routes such as DEN-BHM, DEN-CLT, DEN-DSM, DEN-LIT, and DEN-ICT that could be added by WN. WN will also likely announce at least 1 or 2 new domestic nonstop routes out of DEN this year since WN had added DEN-CVG, DEN-ELP, DEN-LBB, and DEN-MEM nonstop service last year and since WN has also already announced the return of DEN-BUF nonstop service starting in Summer 2019.
 
DENflyer10
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:06 am

Fargo wrote:
Isn’t DEN trying to recruit EK? Denver may not be big enough of a market for them.

Biggest things that need to happen is UA building up to 600 flights and upgauging to mainline and larger RJ’s.


I've read about DEN and EK before but agree don't think it's a big enough market for them to warrant an A380 or 77W, at least not daily. 2-3x/week maybe.

Does anyone have stats on the most popular Middle East destinations for passengers originating from DEN?
 
yuriya
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:21 am

EK has been picking up the 787-10s recently, perhaps as they replace some a330s and smaller 787s those could perhaps accomodate a DEN route. The problem with Denver is that I think for Asian travel (which the Middle East serves as a transfer hub for), passengers would rather take the UA NRT flight. Further along that line of thinking, I believe that it makes more sense for China Airlines, EVA, Cathay, or some of the other Asian carriers that are loading up on the 787/A350s to come into Denver rather than EK or other Middle Eastern airways.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:49 pm

As much of a DEN homer as I am, I can't imagine too many more overseas adds besides more transatlantic. The ME3 and TK have slowed their growth, and even DEN might be a stretch for them. No other Asia destination seems as obvious of a slam dunk as UA to NRT was, either.
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OA412
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:00 pm

intotheair wrote:
As much of a DEN homer as I am, I can't imagine too many more overseas adds besides more transatlantic. The ME3 and TK have slowed their growth, and even DEN might be a stretch for them. No other Asia destination seems as obvious of a slam dunk as UA to NRT was, either.

They certainly are slowing growth, so I don't think we'll see any of them in DEN soon. However, when things pick up again, I actually think the best bet is TK on a 789. It would be the right sized aircraft to start such a route, and it's a shorter route than DXB, so you don't run into tire speed issues. Also, IST is just a better position hub to feed some Southern and Eastern European points, in addition to all the Middle East, than is DXB.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
caverunner17
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:59 pm

intotheair wrote:
As much of a DEN homer as I am, I can't imagine too many more overseas adds besides more transatlantic. The ME3 and TK have slowed their growth, and even DEN might be a stretch for them. No other Asia destination seems as obvious of a slam dunk as UA to NRT was, either.

I could see potential for Air China on the 332 or 789 to Beijing, unless UA starts PEK with another 788
 
mikejepp
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:01 pm

Is there anything noteworthy going on these days at any of the other main Denver airports? APA BJC FTG?
 
DENflyer10
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:00 am

OA412 wrote:
intotheair wrote:
As much of a DEN homer as I am, I can't imagine too many more overseas adds besides more transatlantic. The ME3 and TK have slowed their growth, and even DEN might be a stretch for them. No other Asia destination seems as obvious of a slam dunk as UA to NRT was, either.

They certainly are slowing growth, so I don't think we'll see any of them in DEN soon. However, when things pick up again, I actually think the best bet is TK on a 789. It would be the right sized aircraft to start such a route, and it's a shorter route than DXB, so you don't run into tire speed issues. Also, IST is just a better position hub to feed some Southern and Eastern European points, in addition to all the Middle East, than is DXB.


Found a few good articles that talk about unserved intl markets. IST may not be in the cards soon since traffic dropped 40% since their terror attacks years ago and may not rebound soon. From what I could discern, Amsterdam, Dublin, Rome and Beijing are the biggest intl markets that don't have nonstop service from Denver yet. What's also interesting is about the 20% avg. of passengers that are only traveling directly to Tokyo (UA) or Frankfurt (LH) and the rest are connecting to other cities from those large hubs. Hopefully we see Air China in Denver soon.

https://www.summitdaily.com/news/denver ... d-markets/

https://coloradosun.com/2018/11/14/denv ... ights-dia/
 
FLLflyboy
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:15 am

mikejepp wrote:
Is there anything noteworthy going on these days at any of the other main Denver airports? APA BJC FTG?


From what I understand, APA and FTG are prohibited from commercial operations. However, as someone who works at BJC, I know the airport director is actively pursuing airlines to serve a handful of destinations. It is in the 5-10 year plan but he has the support of the county. Right now, they are focused on allowing Pilatus build out their operation there and to develop some land on the SW side of the airport. There is a new FBO moving is as early as this month and they apparently want to build a few more hangars. In short, it looks like they are focusing on building up the GA traffic but you could see some airlines in the next several years.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:18 am

yuriya wrote:
EK has been picking up the 787-10s recently, perhaps as they replace some a330s and smaller 787s those could perhaps accomodate a DEN route. The problem with Denver is that I think for Asian travel (which the Middle East serves as a transfer hub for), passengers would rather take the UA NRT flight. Further along that line of thinking, I believe that it makes more sense for China Airlines, EVA, Cathay, or some of the other Asian carriers that are loading up on the 787/A350s to come into Denver rather than EK or other Middle Eastern airways.


EK has been all 777/a380 for a few years now and hasn't owned 787s. Smallest they could use is a 77L since the 78X won't have the range to fly the route nonstop (6800 nautical miles).

Indeed, Denver's Asia service has been pretty stagnant for a while. I don't really know where else a transpack could or should fly through Denver; Seoul? Beijing? It's always those two (with Tokyo) first as they're the largest.
 
bomber996
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:56 pm

I flew through the C Concourse today and noticed C38 is branded all up for United Airlines. How many other gates across A and C are like this now?

Peace :box:
"We've recently upped our standards, so up yours." - Federal Aviation Administration
 
fry530
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:46 am

bomber996 wrote:
I flew through the C Concourse today and noticed C38 is branded all up for United Airlines. How many other gates across A and C are like this now?

Peace :box:


Looking at the map, that one appears to be common use, but it sounds like UA has been using it quite a bit though. Beyond that, it appears that all other C gates are Southwest and then two token gates for Alaska and Spirit.

Here's the map: https://www.flydenver.com/sites/default ... nfoMap.pdf

Does anyone know when they are supposed to be done with the bridge maintenance on Peña Boulevard right after you get on it from I-70? They've been slowly working on it since I think June at night time, and it makes going to the airport then a real pain.
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Fargo
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:22 am

Has DEN tried to recruit either AF or KL to start DEN-CDG/AMS? With SkyTeam being the only alliance without a European TATL flight out of DEN, it seems logical one or the other will come sooner or later. I'd say KL could make DEN work, given its largish energy sector and its similarities to YYC. I'm surprised KL added LAS over DEN.
 
jhsusman
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:38 pm

With UA adding DEN - FRA daily and reintroducing the seasonal DEN - LHR next summer I would imagine that the A widebody gates are nearly at capacity in the afternoons. I wonder if they have capacity to add more widebody flights before the new gates open in 2020. I believe Norwegian is bringing back the DEN - CDG flight as well. . .
 
fry530
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:50 pm

jhsusman wrote:
With UA adding DEN - FRA daily and reintroducing the seasonal DEN - LHR next summer I would imagine that the A widebody gates are nearly at capacity in the afternoons. I wonder if they have capacity to add more widebody flights before the new gates open in 2020. I believe Norwegian is bringing back the DEN - CDG flight as well. . .


As it stands, DY is slated to bring back DEN-CDG for the summer. Edelweiss is also coming back with DEN-ZRH and I think Icelandair a frequency increase as well? On certain days the big gates at A may be a bit clogged, but not all of those flights are daily, and the UA flights don't depart from A, so that helps. I would think that the number of widebody gates at A may play a role in the slowing of new international flights however.
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Beechtobus
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:00 pm

Fargo wrote:
Has DEN tried to recruit either AF or KL to start DEN-CDG/AMS? With SkyTeam being the only alliance without a European TATL flight out of DEN, it seems logical one or the other will come sooner or later. I'd say KL could make DEN work, given its largish energy sector and its similarities to YYC. I'm surprised KL added LAS over DEN.


I’d be very surprised if DEN-AMS wasn’t just a matter of when. Now whether it will be on KL or DL, metal, who knows. Rumor has it that once the concourse A expansion is complete, DL will be adding gates (and this, flights) in DEN.

I’m thinking the only holdup for DEN landing AMS SkyTeam service up is lack of adequate equipment. Denver is merely an outstation for DL (albiet, a very large one) so a 350, 747, or 777 would be too much AC, and a 330 or 767 would take too many performance hits. KLM has 13 787-9s which would probably eventually be a good match. I’m sure they are simply tied up for the moment until the 787-10s start coming on line.
 
caverunner17
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Beechtobus wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Has DEN tried to recruit either AF or KL to start DEN-CDG/AMS? With SkyTeam being the only alliance without a European TATL flight out of DEN, it seems logical one or the other will come sooner or later. I'd say KL could make DEN work, given its largish energy sector and its similarities to YYC. I'm surprised KL added LAS over DEN.


I’d be very surprised if DEN-AMS wasn’t just a matter of when. Now whether it will be on KL or DL, metal, who knows. Rumor has it that once the concourse A expansion is complete, DL will be adding gates (and this, flights) in DEN.

I’m thinking the only holdup for DEN landing AMS SkyTeam service up is lack of adequate equipment. Denver is merely an outstation for DL (albiet, a very large one) so a 350, 747, or 777 would be too much AC, and a 330 or 767 would take too many performance hits. KLM has 13 787-9s which would probably eventually be a good match. I’m sure they are simply tied up for the moment until the 787-10s start coming on line.

330 wouldn't take much of any performance hit. Lufthansa flew DEN-MUC on the 330 before the 350's came on board. And DEN-ZRH is also on a 330.
 
Beechtobus
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:41 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
Beechtobus wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Has DEN tried to recruit either AF or KL to start DEN-CDG/AMS? With SkyTeam being the only alliance without a European TATL flight out of DEN, it seems logical one or the other will come sooner or later. I'd say KL could make DEN work, given its largish energy sector and its similarities to YYC. I'm surprised KL added LAS over DEN.


I’d be very surprised if DEN-AMS wasn’t just a matter of when. Now whether it will be on KL or DL, metal, who knows. Rumor has it that once the concourse A expansion is complete, DL will be adding gates (and this, flights) in DEN.

I’m thinking the only holdup for DEN landing AMS SkyTeam service up is lack of adequate equipment. Denver is merely an outstation for DL (albiet, a very large one) so a 350, 747, or 777 would be too much AC, and a 330 or 767 would take too many performance hits. KLM has 13 787-9s which would probably eventually be a good match. I’m sure they are simply tied up for the moment until the 787-10s start coming on line.

330 wouldn't take much of any performance hit. Lufthansa flew DEN-MUC on the 330 before the 350's came on board. And DEN-ZRH is also on a 330.


You’re right. I think I was thinking SLC-NRT, and not SLC-Europe. I spaced that MUC-DEN was originally an A330.
 
Fargo
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:39 pm

Beechtobus wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Has DEN tried to recruit either AF or KL to start DEN-CDG/AMS? With SkyTeam being the only alliance without a European TATL flight out of DEN, it seems logical one or the other will come sooner or later. I'd say KL could make DEN work, given its largish energy sector and its similarities to YYC. I'm surprised KL added LAS over DEN.


I’d be very surprised if DEN-AMS wasn’t just a matter of when. Now whether it will be on KL or DL, metal, who knows. Rumor has it that once the concourse A expansion is complete, DL will be adding gates (and this, flights) in DEN.

I’m thinking the only holdup for DEN landing AMS SkyTeam service up is lack of adequate equipment. Denver is merely an outstation for DL (albeit, a very large one) so a 350, 747, or 777 would be too much AC, and a 330 or 767 would take too many performance hits. KLM has 13 787-9s which would probably eventually be a good match. I’m sure they are simply tied up for the moment until the 787-10s start coming on line.


DL already has a hub in SLC, they probably won't add any p2p flights out of DEN. While not unprecedented, I doubt DL would start an AMS flight on their own metal in a strong competitor hub. Plus, as you said, the 767 or the A330 would have performance issues. DL has better opportunities elsewhere. It makes much more sense for KL to start DEN-AMS. 3-4x weekly on the 789 makes almost too much sense. I'm honestly surprised LAS got KL before DEN, then again, that may be because LAS isn't a hub market.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:44 pm

DEN is a major market. I could see Delta doing some focus cities. No true P2P routes, but to focus cities like AUS, RDU woudln't seem too crazy.
 
Fargo
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:49 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
DEN is a major market. I could see Delta doing some focus cities. No true P2P routes, but to focus cities like AUS, RDU woudln't seem too crazy.


Most definitely they could add the likes of BOS, RDU and perhaps AUS (if it becomes a DL focus city, it is not official yet), I was just saying don't expect any non-hub/focus city DL destinations from DEN.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:19 pm

Peoria, Illinois had DEN service for well over 20 years on either Ozark, CO or UA. I guess its too close to ORD for UA and F9 is doing BMI again so that takes care of Central Illinois for Frontier. I wish UA would take another look at it.
C'mon BA, bring your tail to STL. :airplane:
 
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intotheair
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:31 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
330 wouldn't take much of any performance hit. Lufthansa flew DEN-MUC on the 330 before the 350's came on board. And DEN-ZRH is also on a 330.


DEN-MUC is still an A330. The A350 replaced the A346 on the summer upgauge, and when DEN-MUC was first started briefly in 2007, it was on the A343.

I would love to see a DL/KL/AF flight to CDG/AMS In DEN, and maybe we will get there soon. But DL starting a transatlantic flight in a UA hub would be quite a gutsy move. Aside from taking over ORD-CDG for AF at one point, I don't think it's ever happened.
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fry530
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:41 am

intotheair wrote:
caverunner17 wrote:
330 wouldn't take much of any performance hit. Lufthansa flew DEN-MUC on the 330 before the 350's came on board. And DEN-ZRH is also on a 330.


DEN-MUC is still an A330. The A350 replaced the A346 on the summer upgauge, and when DEN-MUC was first started briefly in 2007, it was on the A343.

I would love to see a DL/KL/AF flight to CDG/AMS In DEN, and maybe we will get there soon. But DL starting a transatlantic flight in a UA hub would be quite a gutsy move. Aside from taking over ORD-CDG for AF at one point, I don't think it's ever happened.


The MUC flight is mostly 350. In the winter it is a 350 most days, and a couple days a week is a 330. It started as a 330 but quickly upguaged to a 346 and then a 350.

I agree that DL running DEN-AMS would be a bit of a jab to UA, but the politics of it are a bit laughable. Given that KLM and Delta have a JV, it wouldn't really make that much of a difference whose metal is flying the route. But, laughable or not, politics exist in aviation. LH flies to Atlanta and Detroit, but UA isn't flying FRA-ATL/DTW even though there is a JV. If we are to see DEN-AMS begin soon, which I think is not out of the realm of possibility, it would more likely be KLM starting it. DL doesn't tend to fly routes like that to big UA hubs. I think they may have had an EWR-AMS flight at one point? But I could be misremembering. While DL could fly a 332 on DEN-AMS, KL doing it on a 332 or a 789 just seems to make more sense. I don't see UA adding AMS, so here's to hoping we get the blue planes that don't say "Southwest" on them.
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Fargo
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:15 am

fry530 wrote:
I agree that DL running DEN-AMS would be a bit of a jab to UA, but the politics of it are a bit laughable. Given that KLM and Delta have a JV, it wouldn't really make that much of a difference whose metal is flying the route. But, laughable or not, politics exist in aviation. LH flies to Atlanta and Detroit, but UA isn't flying FRA-ATL/DTW even though there is a JV. If we are to see DEN-AMS begin soon, which I think is not out of the realm of possibility, it would more likely be KLM starting it. DL doesn't tend to fly routes like that to big UA hubs. I think they may have had an EWR-AMS flight at one point? But I could be misremembering. While DL could fly a 332 on DEN-AMS, KL doing it on a 332 or a 789 just seems to make more sense. I don't see UA adding AMS, so here's to hoping we get the blue planes that don't say "Southwest" on them.


DL operated both AMS and CDG from EWR, and they also operated LHR and CDG from PHL (AA hub) too. All have since been cut. I am of the opinion AUS will be the next city to see a AMS/CDG (or both) flight on DL metal. DEN-AMS will be operated by KL if it happens, which I think is fairly likely barring a major downturn.

Question though, is year round Paris/Amsterdam on either AF or KL a stated goal of DEN? Most of the talk on here has centered around TK or a ME3 carrier starting DEN, but it seems AF/KL is a lower hanging fruit that ought to be addressed first.
 
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Frontier14
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:56 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Peoria, Illinois had DEN service for well over 20 years on either Ozark, CO or UA. I guess its too close to ORD for UA and F9 is doing BMI again so that takes care of Central Illinois for Frontier. I wish UA would take another look at it.


Your observation about Peoria and UA is probably correct to a degree. The DEN-PIA flights on UA before they pulled back were outrageous, $400ow, $800rt. It was no wonder that folks living in central Illinois never jumped with joy over the most recent service. It was just too pricey. It was cheaper for my family to fly to BMI, ORD or MDW and take the shuttle, than pay UA's prices.

Perhaps Allegiant could try the route and make it work.

Frontier 14
 
748iDEN
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:38 pm

Fargo wrote:
fry530 wrote:
I agree that DL running DEN-AMS would be a bit of a jab to UA, but the politics of it are a bit laughable. Given that KLM and Delta have a JV, it wouldn't really make that much of a difference whose metal is flying the route. But, laughable or not, politics exist in aviation. LH flies to Atlanta and Detroit, but UA isn't flying FRA-ATL/DTW even though there is a JV. If we are to see DEN-AMS begin soon, which I think is not out of the realm of possibility, it would more likely be KLM starting it. DL doesn't tend to fly routes like that to big UA hubs. I think they may have had an EWR-AMS flight at one point? But I could be misremembering. While DL could fly a 332 on DEN-AMS, KL doing it on a 332 or a 789 just seems to make more sense. I don't see UA adding AMS, so here's to hoping we get the blue planes that don't say "Southwest" on them.


DL operated both AMS and CDG from EWR, and they also operated LHR and CDG from PHL (AA hub) too. All have since been cut. I am of the opinion AUS will be the next city to see a AMS/CDG (or both) flight on DL metal. DEN-AMS will be operated by KL if it happens, which I think is fairly likely barring a major downturn.

Question though, is year round Paris/Amsterdam on either AF or KL a stated goal of DEN? Most of the talk on here has centered around TK or a ME3 carrier starting DEN, but it seems AF/KL is a lower hanging fruit that ought to be addressed first.


Paris was a stated goal for the DEN and technically speaking they already got their wish. Norwegian flies DEN-CDG in the summer so I think that may be why they are focusing more on getting TK or the ME3 service since that would allow DEN to be extremely well connected internationally besides Europe and NRT.
 
Fargo
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:39 pm

748iDEN wrote:
Fargo wrote:
fry530 wrote:
I agree that DL running DEN-AMS would be a bit of a jab to UA, but the politics of it are a bit laughable. Given that KLM and Delta have a JV, it wouldn't really make that much of a difference whose metal is flying the route. But, laughable or not, politics exist in aviation. LH flies to Atlanta and Detroit, but UA isn't flying FRA-ATL/DTW even though there is a JV. If we are to see DEN-AMS begin soon, which I think is not out of the realm of possibility, it would more likely be KLM starting it. DL doesn't tend to fly routes like that to big UA hubs. I think they may have had an EWR-AMS flight at one point? But I could be misremembering. While DL could fly a 332 on DEN-AMS, KL doing it on a 332 or a 789 just seems to make more sense. I don't see UA adding AMS, so here's to hoping we get the blue planes that don't say "Southwest" on them.


DL operated both AMS and CDG from EWR, and they also operated LHR and CDG from PHL (AA hub) too. All have since been cut. I am of the opinion AUS will be the next city to see a AMS/CDG (or both) flight on DL metal. DEN-AMS will be operated by KL if it happens, which I think is fairly likely barring a major downturn.

Question though, is year round Paris/Amsterdam on either AF or KL a stated goal of DEN? Most of the talk on here has centered around TK or a ME3 carrier starting DEN, but it seems AF/KL is a lower hanging fruit that ought to be addressed first.


Paris was a stated goal for the DEN and technically speaking they already got their wish. Norwegian flies DEN-CDG in the summer so I think that may be why they are focusing more on getting TK or the ME3 service since that would allow DEN to be extremely well connected internationally besides Europe and NRT.


The thing is, I'm not sure if DY will last, so I think landing AF or KL would be lower hanging fruit than a middle eastern carrier, not that DEN shouldn't be pursuing one of those as well.

Perhaps when KL solves their widebody issues, they'll launch DEN-AMS.

Would TK or EK be more likely for a middle eastern carrier?
 
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intotheair
Posts: 1663
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:12 pm

fry530 wrote:

The MUC flight is mostly 350. In the winter it is a 350 most days, and a couple days a week is a 330. It started as a 330 but quickly upguaged to a 346 and then a 350.

I agree that DL running DEN-AMS would be a bit of a jab to UA, but the politics of it are a bit laughable. Given that KLM and Delta have a JV, it wouldn't really make that much of a difference whose metal is flying the route. But, laughable or not, politics exist in aviation. LH flies to Atlanta and Detroit, but UA isn't flying FRA-ATL/DTW even though there is a JV. If we are to see DEN-AMS begin soon, which I think is not out of the realm of possibility, it would more likely be KLM starting it. DL doesn't tend to fly routes like that to big UA hubs. I think they may have had an EWR-AMS flight at one point? But I could be misremembering. While DL could fly a 332 on DEN-AMS, KL doing it on a 332 or a 789 just seems to make more sense. I don't see UA adding AMS, so here's to hoping we get the blue planes that don't say "Southwest" on them.


Interesting, I didn't realize it switched from day to day.

I also agree that the optics of AF/KL starting something would be better than DL. My main concern is whether DEN fits into AF/KL's plans rather than the other way around. AF/KL serve outside of the big cities thins out east of the Mississippi, and I don't get the feeling that AF/KL are in growth mode right now.

I think the odds of UA launching another TATL destination from DEN might be a little higher than they were before, actually. UA is most definitely in an expansion mode. They're launching SFO-AMS, which now means that it's served by all the hubs except DEN and LAX.
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fry530
Posts: 147
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:26 pm

intotheair wrote:
fry530 wrote:

The MUC flight is mostly 350. In the winter it is a 350 most days, and a couple days a week is a 330. It started as a 330 but quickly upguaged to a 346 and then a 350.

I agree that DL running DEN-AMS would be a bit of a jab to UA, but the politics of it are a bit laughable. Given that KLM and Delta have a JV, it wouldn't really make that much of a difference whose metal is flying the route. But, laughable or not, politics exist in aviation. LH flies to Atlanta and Detroit, but UA isn't flying FRA-ATL/DTW even though there is a JV. If we are to see DEN-AMS begin soon, which I think is not out of the realm of possibility, it would more likely be KLM starting it. DL doesn't tend to fly routes like that to big UA hubs. I think they may have had an EWR-AMS flight at one point? But I could be misremembering. While DL could fly a 332 on DEN-AMS, KL doing it on a 332 or a 789 just seems to make more sense. I don't see UA adding AMS, so here's to hoping we get the blue planes that don't say "Southwest" on them.


Interesting, I didn't realize it switched from day to day.

I also agree that the optics of AF/KL starting something would be better than DL. My main concern is whether DEN fits into AF/KL's plans rather than the other way around. AF/KL serve outside of the big cities thins out east of the Mississippi, and I don't get the feeling that AF/KL are in growth mode right now.

I think the odds of UA launching another TATL destination from DEN might be a little higher than they were before, actually. UA is most definitely in an expansion mode. They're launching SFO-AMS, which now means that it's served by all the hubs except DEN and LAX.


Yep, as per Flightradar24, it is a 333 Saturdays and Wednesdays, all other days it is a 359. Although it doesn't operate on Tuesdays in the winter.

I could see KLM coming here. Given the energy industry in Colorado, plus tourism and the vast amount of connections in AMS it could work. UA is expanding, but I don't see them adding any more international flights from DEN soon. I hope I am wrong though. AF seems much less likely to me, as they don't seem to to be expanding really at all, other than resuming DFW. With that said, I have no idea if DEN officials are trying to court AF/KLM, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I think we still have yet to see some more domestic expansion at DEN. I know WN hopes to grow a lot here, but where else do they have yet to fly to? I would imagine we will see more UA domestic adds too.
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AlexBrewster03
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:12 pm

Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:29 pm

intotheair wrote:
fry530 wrote:

The MUC flight is mostly 350. In the winter it is a 350 most days, and a couple days a week is a 330. It started as a 330 but quickly upguaged to a 346 and then a 350.

I agree that DL running DEN-AMS would be a bit of a jab to UA, but the politics of it are a bit laughable. Given that KLM and Delta have a JV, it wouldn't really make that much of a difference whose metal is flying the route. But, laughable or not, politics exist in aviation. LH flies to Atlanta and Detroit, but UA isn't flying FRA-ATL/DTW even though there is a JV. If we are to see DEN-AMS begin soon, which I think is not out of the realm of possibility, it would more likely be KLM starting it. DL doesn't tend to fly routes like that to big UA hubs. I think they may have had an EWR-AMS flight at one point? But I could be misremembering. While DL could fly a 332 on DEN-AMS, KL doing it on a 332 or a 789 just seems to make more sense. I don't see UA adding AMS, so here's to hoping we get the blue planes that don't say "Southwest" on them.


Interesting, I didn't realize it switched from day to day.

I also agree that the optics of AF/KL starting something would be better than DL. My main concern is whether DEN fits into AF/KL's plans rather than the other way around. AF/KL serve outside of the big cities thins out east of the Mississippi, and I don't get the feeling that AF/KL are in growth mode right now.

I think the odds of UA launching another TATL destination from DEN might be a little higher than they were before, actually. UA is most definitely in an expansion mode. They're launching SFO-AMS, which now means that it's served by all the hubs except DEN and LAX.

If anything, UA would launch DEN-AMS over LAX-AMS. I don’t think they would want to go against DL and AF, not to mention they don’t seem to be crazy large at LAX
 
airportlover
Posts: 87
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:53 pm

Just a side note. If UA were to add a new transatlantic service to either CDG or AMS, which city would it more likely be? Also on what type of aircraft? Seasonal or year-round?

My guess: CDG w a 787-8 (seasonal)
 
Fargo
Posts: 613
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:05 am

AlexBrewster03 wrote:
intotheair wrote:
fry530 wrote:

The MUC flight is mostly 350. In the winter it is a 350 most days, and a couple days a week is a 330. It started as a 330 but quickly upguaged to a 346 and then a 350.

I agree that DL running DEN-AMS would be a bit of a jab to UA, but the politics of it are a bit laughable. Given that KLM and Delta have a JV, it wouldn't really make that much of a difference whose metal is flying the route. But, laughable or not, politics exist in aviation. LH flies to Atlanta and Detroit, but UA isn't flying FRA-ATL/DTW even though there is a JV. If we are to see DEN-AMS begin soon, which I think is not out of the realm of possibility, it would more likely be KLM starting it. DL doesn't tend to fly routes like that to big UA hubs. I think they may have had an EWR-AMS flight at one point? But I could be misremembering. While DL could fly a 332 on DEN-AMS, KL doing it on a 332 or a 789 just seems to make more sense. I don't see UA adding AMS, so here's to hoping we get the blue planes that don't say "Southwest" on them.


Interesting, I didn't realize it switched from day to day.

I also agree that the optics of AF/KL starting something would be better than DL. My main concern is whether DEN fits into AF/KL's plans rather than the other way around. AF/KL serve outside of the big cities thins out east of the Mississippi, and I don't get the feeling that AF/KL are in growth mode right now.

I think the odds of UA launching another TATL destination from DEN might be a little higher than they were before, actually. UA is most definitely in an expansion mode. They're launching SFO-AMS, which now means that it's served by all the hubs except DEN and LAX.

If anything, UA would launch DEN-AMS over LAX-AMS. I don’t think they would want to go against DL and AF, not to mention they don’t seem to be crazy large at LAX


I doubt UA would launch DEN-AMS, considering there wouldn't be any connections on the AMS. They are doing FRA and LHR on their own metal because FRA is their TATL jv hub and LHR because it's the biggest European market from the US. At the end of the day, DEN is primarily a domestic hub for UA and most international growth will likely be left to the likes of the costal hubs. Heck, UA doesn't even fly IAH-CDG and that is their second largest hub.

I think KL doing DEN-AMS is likely once they solve their widebody issues.

On this note, how does BA do on DEN-LHR? Considering DEN is a large Star hub, do they do decently?
 
Fargo
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:06 am

airportlover wrote:
Just a side note. If UA were to add a new transatlantic service to either CDG or AMS, which city would it more likely be? Also on what type of aircraft? Seasonal or year-round?

My guess: CDG w a 787-8 (seasonal)


Like I said in my above post, UA doesn't even do IAH-CDG. I doubt UA will add any additional DEN TATL service on their own metal for a while, they only have so many 788's to go around.
 
airportlover
Posts: 87
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:46 am

Fargo wrote:
airportlover wrote:
Just a side note. If UA were to add a new transatlantic service to either CDG or AMS, which city would it more likely be? Also on what type of aircraft? Seasonal or year-round?

My guess: CDG w a 787-8 (seasonal)


Like I said in my above post, UA doesn't even do IAH-CDG. I doubt UA will add any additional DEN TATL service on their own metal for a while, they only have so many 788's to go around.


Yeah makes sense. IAH should come before DEN.
 
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intotheair
Posts: 1663
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:54 am

Fargo wrote:
I doubt UA would launch DEN-AMS, considering there wouldn't be any connections on the AMS. They are doing FRA and LHR on their own metal because FRA is their TATL jv hub and LHR because it's the biggest European market from the US. At the end of the day, DEN is primarily a domestic hub for UA and most international growth will likely be left to the likes of the costal hubs. Heck, UA doesn't even fly IAH-CDG and that is their second largest hub.

I think KL doing DEN-AMS is likely once they solve their widebody issues.


AMS I believe is now the biggest unserved overseas market at DEN. I think it makes a lot more sense for the airport to pursue that than much riskier attempts to get TK to IST or EK to DXB, both of which are much, much smaller markets from DEN. And the "DEN can't do international" viewpoint has been challenged in recent years with all these new additions. Yes, DEN Is a domestic powerhouse, but UA is starting to show that it's interested in adding international. I think DY's entry to the market showed that UA wasn't doing enough international at DEN, and it more or less forced UA's hand to bring back the LHR summer seasonal. UA's recent adds to FRA and MUC also show to me that Scott Kirby's UA isn't going to just let LH do the heavy lifting in the JV like before.

On this note, how does BA do on DEN-LHR? Considering DEN is a large Star hub, do they do decently?


They've been flying DEN-LON nonstop on nothing smaller than a 777 every day for 20 years. UA can't say the same. BA must be doing pretty well.
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rajincajun01
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:01 am

Fargo wrote:
Most definitely they could add the likes of BOS, RDU and perhaps AUS (if it becomes a DL focus city, it is not official yet), I was just saying don't expect any non-hub/focus city DL destinations from DEN.


Delta just insourced their ramp and is getting several more gates in March at AUS. Look for their moves to start soon.
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Fargo
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:26 am

rajincajun01 wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Most definitely they could add the likes of BOS, RDU and perhaps AUS (if it becomes a DL focus city, it is not official yet), I was just saying don't expect any non-hub/focus city DL destinations from DEN.


Delta just insourced their ramp and is getting several more gates in March at AUS. Look for their moves to start soon.


Oh I fully believe it will happen, in fact, I expect the first announcement(s) to be made any week now. I was just wording things carefully because some users on this site get triggered when the mere suggestion of AUS becoming a DL focus city is said.
 
crowski31
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:36 am

As someone that travels to HKG and ICN on UA through NRT or SFO, I would love to see UA or CX open a direct HKG route or even a UA direct to ICN. Not sure what they would do to their traffic through SFO, but it seems that many of the NRT passengers are continuing to HKG anyway.
 
Fargo
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:46 am

intotheair wrote:
Fargo wrote:
I doubt UA would launch DEN-AMS, considering there wouldn't be any connections on the AMS. They are doing FRA and LHR on their own metal because FRA is their TATL jv hub and LHR because it's the biggest European market from the US. At the end of the day, DEN is primarily a domestic hub for UA and most international growth will likely be left to the likes of the costal hubs. Heck, UA doesn't even fly IAH-CDG and that is their second largest hub.

I think KL doing DEN-AMS is likely once they solve their widebody issues.


AMS I believe is now the biggest unserved overseas market at DEN. I think it makes a lot more sense for the airport to pursue that than much riskier attempts to get TK to IST or EK to DXB, both of which are much, much smaller markets from DEN. And the "DEN can't do international" viewpoint has been challenged in recent years with all these new additions. Yes, DEN Is a domestic powerhouse, but UA is starting to show that it's interested in adding international. I think DY's entry to the market showed that UA wasn't doing enough international at DEN, and it more or less forced UA's hand to bring back the LHR summer seasonal. UA's recent adds to FRA and MUC also show to me that Scott Kirby's UA isn't going to just let LH do the heavy lifting in the JV like before.


I'm not saying DEN can't support international, I am simply stating that UA may be more inclined to start international on their own metal at other hubs. We have to keep in mind that DEN is a large and fast growing market, but it isn't the caliber of the markets of UA's other hubs (ORD, IAH, EWR, IAD, SFO, LAX). So far, UA has only done LHR and FRA on their own metal from DEN. LHR is a result of them serving it from every hub and FRA is the result of them finally realizing they need to serve their jv TATL hub on their own metal like they do at their other major hubs. But what else would they add? Like I said, they don't even serve IAH-CDG, IAH being a market more than double the size of DEN and with a ton of international demand. Why would they serve CDG or AMS from DEN?

Also, an international flight from DEN should have connections on the other end to make it successful. This is why I think KL would be a good fit for DEN. If YYC can have KL, there isn't any reason DEN can't.

intotheair wrote:
On this note, how does BA do on DEN-LHR? Considering DEN is a large Star hub, do they do decently?


They've been flying DEN-LON nonstop on nothing smaller than a 777 every day for 20 years. UA can't say the same. BA must be doing pretty well.


To be fair, UA just started the route and doesn't have a slot to do it year round. When they get one, it will go year round and perhaps upgauged.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:41 pm

As a recent transplant to Denver, I am enjoying the domestic network that SFO(former home) will never be able to match. Would be nice to see another Asian route or European route, as have found airfares to both are pretty steep usually. Given United's strength, would think one of their partners might be able to make something work, possibly, EVA, Asiana or Turkish. Asia is challenging with Chinese capacity saturating the market so i think best odds are another European flight on United, maybe AMS or CDG, although both are Skyteam hubs. The 787-8 could make these work.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:15 am

Fargo wrote:
I'm not saying DEN can't support international, I am simply stating that UA may be more inclined to start international on their own metal at other hubs. We have to keep in mind that DEN is a large and fast growing market, but it isn't the caliber of the markets of UA's other hubs (ORD, IAH, EWR, IAD, SFO, LAX). So far, UA has only done LHR and FRA on their own metal from DEN. LHR is a result of them serving it from every hub and FRA is the result of them finally realizing they need to serve their jv TATL hub on their own metal like they do at their other major hubs. But what else would they add? Like I said, they don't even serve IAH-CDG, IAH being a market more than double the size of DEN and with a ton of international demand. Why would they serve CDG or AMS from DEN?

Also, an international flight from DEN should have connections on the other end to make it successful. This is why I think KL would be a good fit for DEN. If YYC can have KL, there isn't any reason DEN can't.


I think we generally agree. I'll put it this way: the odds of UA launching another DEN-TATL route that's not to LHR or a Star hub is low, but the odds are somewhat higher than they were pre-Scott Kirby.

I'm also still not so sure of how high the odds are of AF/KL starting DEN. I've never really been able to figure out why YYC has always been able to have the international service that it does. With all that said, the more international in DEN, the better.

To be fair, UA just started the route and doesn't have a slot to do it year round. When they get one, it will go year round and perhaps upgauged.


UA has done it before. DEN-LHR was started as a daily, year-round flight in March 2008 on a 3-cabin 777 after the start of EU open skies. UA then pulled it by that October when the economy went south even though it was supposed to continue through the winter. They then brought it back as a summer seasonal in 2010 and 2011, again on the 777. Pre-2008, I think UA may have been prevented from doing DEN-LON nonstop because of some Bermuda II nonsense, though I could be wrong.

I think if LHR slots weren't an issue, UA could probably do DEN-LHR year-round with no problem. The 2-cabin 788 is clearly the right plane for that route. Should be interesting to see what else becomes of the new 787 pilot base in DEN...
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caverunner17
Posts: 258
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:16 pm

crowski31 wrote:
As someone that travels to HKG and ICN on UA through NRT or SFO, I would love to see UA or CX open a direct HKG route or even a UA direct to ICN. Not sure what they would do to their traffic through SFO, but it seems that many of the NRT passengers are continuing to HKG anyway.

I really hope someone besides UA comes to the TPAC market. Prices for the DEN-NRT-XXX are often significantly higher than DEN-SEA-XXX-XXX or DEN-SFO-XXX-XXX.A little bit of competition would go a long way for pricing.
 
fry530
Posts: 147
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Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:51 am

Well, in other news it looks like UA is looking to compete with F9 on DEN-BTV:
https://www.mynbc5.com/article/hello-go ... e/26023361

Here's the a.net threat on it too: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1414181

Interesting that we will now have two carriers flying to Vermont when that seemed like such a far fetched route, at least to me.
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cm642
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:16 pm

Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:52 am

intotheair wrote:
Fargo wrote:
I think if LHR slots weren't an issue, UA could probably do DEN-LHR year-round with no problem. The 2-cabin 788 is clearly the right plane for that route. Should be interesting to see what else becomes of the new 787 pilot base in DEN...


When did UA announce they're opening a 787 pilot base in DEN?
 
mcg
Posts: 927
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:35 pm

It's interesting to me that the new service to Europe (i.e. UA to LHR and FRA) hasn't seemed to have any effect on fares. I'm shopping for a trip to Europe in June and fares are quite high. I'm trying to be patient and wait for a fare sale, but as of yet fares DEN to Europe are as high as I've ever seen.
 
caverunner17
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:50 pm

Re: Denver Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:50 pm

mcg wrote:
It's interesting to me that the new service to Europe (i.e. UA to LHR and FRA) hasn't seemed to have any effect on fares. I'm shopping for a trip to Europe in June and fares are quite high. I'm trying to be patient and wait for a fare sale, but as of yet fares DEN to Europe are as high as I've ever seen.

Pro tip: Don't be picky where you fly into. Sometimes flying to London or Paris can be expensive, but Brussels or Amsterdam can be cheap.

For example, I'm seeing some $6xx summer fares to LHR

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