Airliners.net

Ok........ should i give up with them???
they seem to have no idea what they are doing, and are confusing everyone else with regards to their fleet plan, operations, e.t.c, they just seem to be is a big mess!!! I want them to do well, but as many people have mentioned before, the corruption e.t.c is not gonna let it happen.
And their bid to partly privatise the company- well thats out the window..... and long gone!!!!! AFAIK. havnt heard anythign about it in ages, so should i give up expecting anything?
maybe its the old british rajj that is showing through- waste as much money as is possible, and as much time as possible, discuss till u cant discuss no more- physically, and untill the damage has been done, let millions of poor innocent people die- while a decision is being made- or at least the first conference date set!!! (T5 T5 T5 T5 T5 T5 T5....hello..... (except for the people dieing of course))
well maybe that was a sick joke, but maybe there is some truth in it- by that i mean, air india is suffering to a great extent, they have such potential and are wasting it, due to the poor management e.t.c in all aspects of the company.
i just want to see hem do well, but i am about to give up with my expectations of a turnaround. whats the point of leasing old A310's, when what they need is a complete fleet renewal- NOW. well they probably know a bit more than me- the management i mean, but im sure many will agree that air india is going down :'(, in all ways possible.
with other carriers in the indian subcontinent doing well- or improving to an extent, i just think air india is falling behind- way behing. PIA for example have baught some 777's, and have good 743's in the fleet, whereas air india have very very old 744's very old A310's. It is a disgrace, i feel ashamed to be indian to an extent because of air india. although they do what they do fairly well- safely i mean. with middle eastern carriers doing so well, qatar for exaple growing at an extraudinary rate, and EK doing very well s well, and other carriers like SQ and TG doing well, i think its a shame that air india can not even come close to their levels of service, route network, the modern fleets they operate. The business class and first class is not very good, they dont offer the fantastic new innovative things that carriers like BA, SQ and CX offer.
i guess im just angry, and i am going off a bit, but it is a massive shame!
i would like to see air india completely privatised, internationally or domestically. I think VS and SQ could be fantastic, and work wonders for the airline.
There is great potential in india.
I give up!

I don't know all the details, but I agree with you. PIA was losing quite alot of money and very mismanaged in the late 90's and 2000 and was in a situation just like Air India is now. I believe that if Air India could hire all new executive staff (like PIA did), they might become the respectable airline.

Air India has lot's of problems,but going out and buying a bunch of brand new planes won't fix the issues.

Their fleet mix is getting better,the 744's are much newer than the early BA and KLM ones.The old 742's are gone or going soon.

The A310 is a good air plane,the ones they are leasing in are not that old for an aircraft.

Give them time,you know what politics in India is like.

Rgds

BA319-131

I don't think it's really possible for any 744 to be "very very old." I believe they first started flying in 1989. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but that's a very reasonable age for an airplane.

Just wanted to comment on that point.

/gwl

its not just the 744's, ok they have 6 or so 744's in their fleet, but their potential for expansion is incredible, they are not taking advantage of it.
and thats not all, its everyhting put together, everything about the airline, is very very inefficient, for example, it has amongst the highest employees per aircraft compared to other airlines, and the govenrment wont change it because of all the people that will become unemplyed.
my answer would be to privatise it 100% as said before, with no intervention from the government on operating procedures, apart from what is normal- like other private companies- BA for example.
anyway ive expected a lot, and got nothing- for whatever reason, missmanagement, corruption, and now i have given up!!! :'(
and by the way i was thinking....... i was born in england..... so deos that make me indian??? or of indian origin???..... and should i care less? and hope start routing for BA?
im confused- in more ways than 1  
regards
Ammunition

I dont think the 744's are very very old either. Rather, they are very very dirty. Also, the Air India color scheme has not changed in decades, whereas PIA and virtually every other Asian and South Asian carrier has updated their livery (I think Biman Bangladesh is the other exception).

I know they experimented with a new color scheme briefly in the mid 90's, but this was dropped. Its definatley time to rethink their overall image. Most people that I have spoken to seem to have this view of Air India as an old airline with dirty planes. I say, new corporate image, and cleaner aircraft. A few new 777's couldn't hurt either.

privatisation would in my opinion solve ALL of their needs. At the moment the goverrnment doesnt seem to care that it loses money, or that it has 5-10 times as many employees that it requires for their embarassing fleet of 20 or so aircraft, its a disgrace!!!
with a country as large as india (withing top 10, maybe 5 in land area), with a population as large as it has (either 1st or second only to china, with a population of over a billoin), and with the potential india can offer the world as a whole (one of the top 5 economies of the world when analysed with PPP)- air india does not do it any favours!!!
a great shame :'(

Air India is unfortunately caught in the aches and pains of the Indian bureacratic nightmare. Privatizing the airline fell through because a mixture of corrupt bureacrats, opposition members, the idiotic ex-Aviation minister and others with entrenched interests bandied around the idiotic notion that Air India was a jewel in the crown of the Indian socialist nightmare that is the Indian economy (Yes, even 10 years after "liberalization"), and that selling it would be to rob the Indian public. Change in India comes slowly - unlike China - which by mid-century will have made its transition to a first world country. THe fact that the current leadership is composed of a coalition doesnt make thinngs any easier. Unless someone at the top makes a decision, stands by it, and insists that the airline will make it to the top echelons of the industry, nothing will happen.

As far as the AI 744s go, I've flown on them twice in the last few years. One was indeed rather ratty looking inspite of being ony 6 years old. The other 744 looked quite new. However, the inflight service was good on both planes. I agree that the "palace in the sky" livery needs serious updating - even simply painting the belly a grey like they have on the A310s could work. But then the whole fleet, the cabins, the seats, the uniforms, the route structure (why would a high-end traveller want to fly from London or Dubai to Bombay via Delhi or Trivandrum if they can fly non-stop on a better carrier?), and the fundamental approach needs updating. Frankly, the updated early 90s livery was hideous, with that ugly sun on the tail. Why bother with Landor associates, when I bet that contemporary Indian designers can do a much better job !

Air-India problem is government. Privatize the airline, lay off 50% of workers, increase productivity. New aircraft purchases can come later....the AI fleet is not that old. They also need to focus on CLEANLINESS....not sure if this is a cultural thing (I'm not saying that Indians are not clean, but the cleanliness comment about AI is VERY common) about AI or India in general. The same comments are made about PIA.

Doesn't privately owned Jet Airways offer good service with clean aircraft?

AI no doubt has a hold on the Indian ethnic market, but they need to start to cater to the wider world market...and that means having cleaner aircraft.

When AI flew to YYZ (on and off several times) with FFR to LHR, every Canadian I spoke to who flew them said 'never again' due to: unclean aircraft, smelly aircraft, poor ontime record.

Well, to say that India isnt dirty would be to blatantly lie. Its a filthy place !! (And, I'm Indian). But, frankly, I havent found Air India planes to be dirty so much as that the older 747-200s they flew for 20 years were never really spiffed up - and so they looked worn. Frankly, Ive flown on United and NW aircraft that were genuinely dirty. And as far as some folks go - those of Indian descent or the White majority in the West - anything Indian means inferior. Its that whole overall image thing that Air India should be doing its damndest to overcome as India's ambassodor to the world, but hasnt since the good ol' days when JRD was at the helm.

Jet Airways is fabulous. Clean planes, good food, and great schedules.

I agree Jaysit. AI needs to work on its image.

Perhaps Jey Airways will get intl route authority and provide some competition for AI...although I bet there are many in the Indian government & Air-India who will fight tooth & nail to prevent Jet AW from expanding into intl markets.

Air-India should be much better. And about fifteen times bigger. My god, they serve a population of over a billion people with half a dozen 747s and a few Airbus? Jesus christ, Air NZ are stuck with about two million locals (not counting the sheep) with no chance of any transit traffic and they have a bigger fleet. I know the make-up of the population is different (again, we're not counting the sheep) but Air-India should be flying 25 747s easy. Emirates have pretty much based their entire existence on the need for good quality airline service between Europe and the subcontinent, they carry more people between the two regions than any other airline, and this is a disgrace to Air-India. I have flown AI from Heathrow to JFK (for £99, or $150, return) and they were really good, on time and a lovely curry both ways. But they're clearly in a complete mess and should sort it out.

I agree Cedarjet......it comes down to ownership. AI is run by bureaucrats...who have no commercial mindset. AI is overstaffed with poor service. Unshackle AI from the Indian govt & let it have professional mgmt and free reign to serve profitable markets and drop others. Then it will flourish.

Actually AI have done just that - dropped virtually all of their loss making routes and expanded profit making routes. Unfortunately, this has meant that its network has shrunk - only London and Paris remain in Europe. A lot has to do with having no planes - business travellers will not go with an airline that flies to a European destination once or twice a week. Daily non-stop service using mid-sized aircraft is mandatory. So, AI uses its bilateral rights by buying seat blocs on other carriers - lufthansa, Austrian, Swissair, SQ, MAS, etc. AI did make a profit this year of about $ 10 million. However, it appears that for the near future the airline will hedge its bets on being a mass carrier for expat low-wage workers to the Persian Gulf. You can forget about new 777s, flying beds, PTVs in coach, a sexy new livery, etc.

hey cedarjet- can i ask when you travelled with air india for £99 return to JFK from LHR???
i would love to fly this route with them- if it is that cheap.

India is the 7th biggest country, Russia,Canada, China,
Brazil, Oz and the US is bigger area wise. Flew Air India
twice and it was a "different" experience....

very rarely is something good said about air india! i would love to see jet airways go international, now from what ive heard-THATS AN AIRLINE!

wrt to the A310's, i think it was a good idea to go in for leasing the 310's. Buying a fleet-mix of A330/340's for this MCLR requirement would obviously be better, but to those of us who know the way things work out here, no purchase can happen unless the minister concerned gets to have his say, just to be assured of his *importance*. The Previous CA Minister, Sharad Yadav, was a no-good moron who believed that AI should operate on a No-Profit No Loss basis!! The current Minister, the Hussain character, is no better. With such ministers around to spoil things, can AI really improve?

Leasing 310's doesnt require more than a cursory nod from the ministry, while purchasing aircraft will require clearance from atleast 3 ministries. So the AI mgmt has wisely chosen the lease route to fleet expansion.

AI is horrendously over-staffed with around 750 employees per aircraft, certainly the highest employees-per-aircraft ratio in the world. The other state owned carrier IC, operates a fleet of 60 Jets with around the same number of employees as AI. But there is no way AI can get rid of its existing staff, even if it is privatised thanks to the way labour laws have been written. Remember BALCO was privatised, but not a single employee could be laid off.

What makes the labour situation worse at AI as compared to IC is the dominance of a political party called the Shiv Sena in the Trade Unions at AI. They have created a lot of negativity within the airline, and have certainly contributed a great deal to destroying the AI work culture.

Restoring AI's glory? I dont see that happening for a long time. Even the ministry (and there are SOME genuine babus there) has washed its hands off AI. Buying aircraft is not going to solve any of AI's problems. What they need is a change of attitude. They need to give up their hoity-toity attitude towards other carriers, and understand that the superiority complex that they acquired is totally out of place.

The state owned IC improved its bottomlines inspite of the Govt babus taking steps to encourage one particular domestic airline(9W) at the expense of other players, IC in particular. IC did not increase its fleet at all(They will be leasing 4 A320's, and buying 3 A300's only this year), but it s service levels, network, market share and profitability all have gone up tremendously. Mebbe thats the reason why the ministry cleared IC's request for 45 brand new aircraft in one shot, while AI's request for 6 B777/A330's and 4 747-400's is in the process of being thrown out.

Just my Rs.2

-Roy

Roy -

WHats the scoop on Hussain? I was under the impression that he was a better sort than that moron Yadav.

The travails of basing one's operations in Mumbai with the fascist Shiv Sena micromanaging the city to the point of dictating every aspect of labor relations will always be detrimental to AI. What if AI threatened to shift its base to Delhi or even Bangalore? As it is, AI has eased its operations to the Gulf from Bombay and has concurrently increased flights from other Indian cities. Of course, giving the SS (note how all fascist parties appear to have the same initials) the finger is something the BJP and its wretched cohorts will never do.

With India's idiotic labor laws, no one in their right mind will want to purchase AI, so privatization may as well be a case of the Emperor having no clothes. Why bother with AI? If you cant fire a trouble making coterie of goondas within the organization, why would you want to purchase AI? Its not like these people can be transferred to other jobs or re-trained? You cant put them on a new 777 or A380 as cabin or flight crew.

As far as the A310s go, arent they range limited with rather outdated cabin amenities? I guess theyre fine for the labor flights to the Gulf, where the poor sods have never flown before and so couldnt tell the difference between a premier or a second string carrier, but then again, I'm sure that a few years in Dubai raises expectations and the Gulf Expats move to Emirates en masse on their next runs to India.

from what i have read, i see 1 answer and 1 answer only to solve THE problem (AI).....
and that is for it to go bankrupt, i know this will cause major outcry amongst those employed with air india, but life goes on, maybe the govenrment can offer them other jobs, sabena, swiss, and others have done it, and many of the old employees have been re-employed by the new start-ups, pilots, groundstaff (i think) e.t.c.
I am not sure whether bankruptcy is possible for air india, with it being a govenrment owned company, and a so called 'status symbol' for india (which im sure vajpayee is very pleased about), the outcome of the carrier just seems more and more blurred.
as mentioned before, air india needs a complete revamp from its fleet to management, and from groundstaff to livery e.t.c everything about it.
Lets say the company was declared bankrupt by the governement who were no longer willing to feed masses and masses of money into it, would they then finally give it up? what would the possibilities be?
Either was, as sad ast may seem, i feel it is the onl way to go.
Maybe then a new company can develop, with a completely new attitude towards the whole industry.
I would love somoene like Richard Branson start a major international airline, or buy air india 100%, but i suppose as long as pigs cant fly, theres no chance of that happening.
regards
Ammunition

P.S. can a government owned company go bankrupt?... i suppose if it continuously making a loss then surely the government should give up hope and let go, but then again, it would be a major embarassment for the country to lose its airline, so would they continue pumping money into it?

Considering the mindset of the people who work for all the South Asian airlines it will be a long time before they improve, the type of people needed to turn these airlines around shy away from the jobs because they cant relate to teh majority who work there and have a thought pattern peculiar to the region, SriLankan were fortunate Emirates took over, as for the people who work at PIA I dont have the words to describe them and their attitude. Oh and most of these countries are filthy places Pakistan being no exception.

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Photo © Jason Taperell

Well, it appears that the new Sri Lankan govt is making all sorts of noises about Sri Lankan's partial sale to Emirates. Whenever you have S. Asian govt bodies who need to make all sorts of populist appeals to the lowest common denominator, their victim of choice is always the national airline.

In any case, I doubt if AI will ever go under or if the Indian govt will let it.

Yadav was a dehati, but atleast he understood the Technical aspects of an Airline operation, if not the Commercial aspect of it. This Hussain fellow doesnt understand a thing about airline operations and depends on Babus passing him chits.

As i said before, the Ministry has washed its hands off AI. One reason could be that the babus are exasperated at AI's lack of progress. Another the reasons being given (atleast in the ministry gossip clubs) is that AI is being throttled to death, so Jet Airways can finally go international.

If the Shiv Sena got its way, then all Muslim/Christian and non-Maharashtrian employees would be fired pronto. And AI would be flying A310's to Shirdi!

Its a good thing that AI is increasing ops out of destinations like COK, BLR and MAA. But the OP-HQ will always be BOM. AI has built up a phenomenal infrastructure in Mumbai. A lot of it has to be seen to be believed. Their Engineering/Maintainance facilities here are among the best class in the world; totally state of the art. And the amount of office space they have in Mumbai, from Andheri to Nariman point is also phenomenal. So shifting out of Mumbai is going to be a no-go.

As far as the A310's are concerned, I am not sure of the range bit. I did hear that some people within AI(read the powerful Boeing lobby) werent too happy with the A310's performance. But at one stage AI was planning to run a A310 on the BOM-CDG-ORD routing! So i guess they can do most runs.

The A310's are supposed to have PTV's in J (as with the the 744's). But the Ministry decided to ban PTV's for some reason, and these have been sealed. If the A310's are going to be around for some time, it would be gr8 if AI would equip Y seats with the PTVs and improve its IFE system across its fleet. But that is just wishful thinking!

I feel that the ONLY solution is to liberalise the International routes as well. Let IC and 9W fly internationally. This will break the stupid superiority complex that AI mgmt has cultivated. Right now AI isnt concerned with competition from BA or EK, but it throws a fit if an Indian carrier is allowed to fly a route that it sees as its sole *right*. It is this complex that is the root of mot ills at the carrier.

-Roy

i know, u would like to read my reply seeing my username. i was really upset at reading youe post but then it is all true. Gets me back to the time of Tatas way back into the 1930s, when they started the airlines under their name Tata Airlines. It was the best airline in the region and remained so for a long period. It saw a lot of changes inmanagement as well as fleet, the 1970s was a great time when a brand new fleet of 747s replaced the 707s. But alas as the time went by it merely became a scapegoat at the hands of the indian government. To add insult to injury we haven't had a civil avaiation minister who has remained in ofice for more than 2 years at a stretch for the last 6 years now. Thue with that went the possibility of privatisation. All this is really heartening, but i guess, there is dawn after every night.