Cap'n Dan
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AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:08 am

AC's timetable now shows YOW-YWG as 1 mainline flight a day for the summer. I thought they were going to have two mainline flights, plus a Tango flight. Any insight?
 
YWG
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:21 am

Air Canada is a very unpredictable airline  Big thumbs up
FLY A I R C A N A D A
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
CanadianDC10
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:26 am

Maybe AC only has one YOW-YWG route daily during the summer is because Tango now has two daily flights on that route in the summer.
 
RP TPA
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:26 am

I have the AC timetable downloaded in my computer. The latest update (eff. Mar. 15) shows 2 non-stops in each direction. These are mainline, no idea if Tango has anything in addition to those 2 flights.
 
mel
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:08 pm

Looks like there will be two mainline AC flights, as well as a Tango flight. Mainline flights will be 737-200s, with the odd 319 flight mixed in there. Tango will be on a 737-200. 3 flights a day -- pretty good service if you ask me.
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yow
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:09 pm

Yeah according to the online timetable AC is cutting one mainline flight, so that there will only be one mainline and one Tango. But for the month of May, before the Tango flight starts there is only one flight period.

AC will "add" a flight with great fanfare, but not say a word when something is cut. AC was suppose to have two daily YOW-YEG flights but it will still remaing a 1. And in all their brillance they are not adding extra flights from YOW to both YVR and YYC this summer. In fact, AC is cutting capacity on the YOW-YVR route this summer over this winter. Currently there are 2 763s a day, but at this point the peak summer period is showing only 2 762 flights. So for anyone that says a market is always served to its needs, this proves that it's not true. YOW-YVR is a route with a quarter of a million O&D pax a year, not counting thousands of additional connecting pax, but with almost no competition, Air Toronto can do as much YYZ hubbing as it pleases.
 
flyyul
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:15 pm

Thank you Andrew,

I definitely know how you feel... but these YYZers dont get it, and gotta bring out the worst in us, in order to get the point...

It is ridiculous, and stupid. Just like Tango saying they will 2 YUL-YHZ flights, well its now only 1 737.... Trust me, we lost our mainline flight to YEG and YWG, and we are 3 times bigger than Ottawa, no offense directed of course.....

I think Air Canada should definitely change its name to Air Toronto...... cuz thats what they really are..

Mark
 
yow
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:22 pm

No offence taken Mark, it's a fact that Montreal is 3 times the size of Ottawa.  Smile

But you're right the YYZers just don't get it. If AC cuts the number of YYZ-YVR flights from 13 to 12 nobody cares. But it's a big deal when AC is planning on cutting capacity on a route for the peak summer period over the winter schedule with only 2 flights a day on it. It proves what we have been saying all along.
 
yow
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:24 pm

Mark,

Just to further prove our point, back in the days of CP there were up to 6 YOW-YVR AC + CP combined flights a day during the summer months using 319/320s. Now this was probably too much capacity, but you know what I'm getting at.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:42 pm

Hey guys.....don't be sore losers. AC puts its aircraft on the routes that make the most $. Clearly, a 13th daily YYZ-YVR is more profitable than a 2nd daily YOW-YVR.

As for AC being called 'Air Toronto'.....you must be joking. The fed govt MANDATES thru the legislated AC Act that AC MUST be HQ'ed in YUL forever.....sounds like discrimination AGAINST Toronto (and the rest of English Canada) to me.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:48 pm

Here we go again...
 
flyyul
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:52 pm

Yup here we go again...

Neil, you'll never get it.... trust me. We're not being sore losers, but it just doesnt make sense... its not about the money.... im sure they are equally as profitable, but you believe most certainly that AC is in the business of making money, but some of the numbers I have collected, and route annoucments/cuts make you believe otherwise...

mark
 
Samurai 777
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:53 pm

"Unpredictable" is a bit of an understatement as far as AC's timetables are concerned. While AC tries its very best to be Toronto-centric much to the disgust of its customers, other routes have their times and even equipment used changing almost monthly, making flight schedules almost unreliable! The YEG-YYC-YVR is a pretty good example of such a thing.

As I have mentioned in other posts before, I'm supposed to fly YEG-YYC-YOW-YVR-YEG this May. Since I booked the ticket, the flight times and even the equipment used has changed on at least one flight segment! Because I paid only the restricted fare, it might mean I have to pay an extra penalty fee for an itinerary change!!  Angry  Angry  Angry

FLYYUL, I'd agree with you on the name change to Air Toronto!
 
flyyul
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 1:06 pm

Yeah.. Samurai777 I know how you feell... it feels like a roller coaster here at YUL...

You know, are we better off without CP? But in all honesty, these are bad moves for AC...WJ will definitely pick up the pieces, and what will be left for AC, but to then claim unprofitability, and saturation of market..

Ill tell you this much, 22 daily flight to YYC from YYZ is saturation, and 2 from YOW, or 1 from YHZ or even 3 from YUL, is not..... and the number are out there, YYZ demand does not justify 10X more flights, but AC will make you believe this...

Trust me, I flew YUL-YYZ, was on an A330, then an A320, then a B767-300, finally a A321... my row changed from the back, to front, to exit row, now to middle...

Thank god,
Mark
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 1:09 pm

I'm sorry to hear that Samurai 777...sick.

You see, I am totally on the other end of the spectrum, as I want as many changes and connections as possible. Why? 'cause I like to changes planes and see other airports...but I'm a freak, not the regular pap. As a result, I have booked myself on WJ YOW-YVR in April with a stop AND a connection on the way to and 3 stops on the way back

My philosophy is that when you fly, or rather, when you are booked to fly nowadays (opposite to the jet- set sixties) you HAVE to give yourself some leeway; meaning more time in case of cancellations, reroutings, misconnections, IROP's etc...today's passenger must recognise that fact. You'll get there faster than the TGV but... bring a good book and quite a collection of CD's. how hard is that?

Regards
Grégoire
 
yow
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 1:24 pm

Yep here we go again, but let's stop before it goes too far this time.  Big grin

The facts of routes being or becoming underserved, based on what's published in the schedule at this time speak for themselves. If YVR-YOW was so unprofitable for AC then why would they fly the 2 daily flights with 763s during the winter? Wouldn't they only use 320s or 319s instead? So then dropping them to 762s during the summer, thereby cutting about 60 seats a day from the market at a time when traffic increases, makes no sense whatsoever. I can understand that the 763s need to be deployed on international routes during the summer, but wouldn't it make just a little too much sense to replace that lost capacity and to add a little more for the peak summer season with say an extra 320 flight as has occured in the past ? Not for the AC of the 21st century though.

Tell me something, not counting the heavily business- oriented Rapidair routes and the southern leisure routes, how many AC routes from YYZ, where traffic increases during the summer months, get a cut in capacity during the peak summer period...none right?

AC's Toronto-centrism has nothing to do with language or politics. There are 600,000 Franco-Ontarians in case no one has noticed, and a similar number of anglophone Quebecers.
 
ywg777
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RE: What Exactly Are WJ's Expansion Plans

Mon Mar 18, 2002 1:43 pm

its 3 AC flights betwen YWG-YOW. 2 Mainline Jets and 1 tango flight. thats great service to our capital if you ask me.
Shawn
 
yow
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RE: What Exactly Are WJ's Expansion Plans

Mon Mar 18, 2002 1:56 pm

It was suppose to be 3 nonstop flights, but if you check the online schedule, unless this is an error (who knows, knowing AC) it now only lists 1 mainline flight a day as of May 1st.
 
yow
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Re: WJ

Mon Mar 18, 2002 2:04 pm

WJ's expansion plans for the summer should be coming out any day now. My guess is that YHZ, YYT, and YUL will be added by the end of August along with at least 2 other new destinations in the east. Along with a bunch of new routes annouced from existing destinations.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 3:22 pm

Stop whining guys! AC puts its aircraft on the most profitable routes. If a 3rd daily YOW- or YUL-YVR flight made sense over a 13th daily YYZ-YVR flight, AC would fly it.

If you want more flights in YOW or YUL, fly more often.

Whine. Whine. Whine.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
lymanm
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:32 pm

Dan, thanks alot, you've given FLYYUL yet another forum to demonstrate his sheer lack of knowledge of hub and spoke ops. I'm surprised he hasn't brought in the DFW website "load factors" yet...

FLYYUL, in EVERY post you make, you say "trust me"...Ooooh, I get it, we're supposed to second guess AC's management and instead believe "some of the numbers (you) have collected"???? Get me an AC barf bag...
buhh bye
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Mon Mar 18, 2002 9:21 pm

Well said Lymanm.....

AC barf bags.....ordered by some manager in YUL for the entire airline no doubt......because the Fed govt DICTATED that AC be based on YUL forever.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Cap'n Dan
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 12:11 am

a) I agree with you, Neil. I'm just a bit jealous. The truth is that there is more demand from YOW than YYZ; AC is not dumb. It really bugs me when people get on Milton's back for losing money and then complain when he cuts unprofitable routes. That said, I'm still from Ottawa and I always love to see more YOW service...

b) Lymanm: "alot" is not a word. You probably meant to write "a lot."
 
flyyul
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 12:34 am

well thank you YYZ717 and Lumanm, im about to become a passenger service agent for Northwest at Dorval, so my knowledge is as good as yours, or even better...

Ive been following the scene, see the loads from seat mappers (which are accurate +-5%), and just words of mouth.

Furthermore, would you like to deny the load factors of 43 and 45% shown for AC at IAH and DFW. Not official, so whats the margin of error, +-5%... comeone, who are you kidding.

My knowledge has been growing since I became interested in 1996, and trust me, with this new job, ill learn a lot more every day..

Mark
 
flyyul
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 12:36 am

Let Milton take his American ass and French Canadian executives that believe in YYZ-centrism, it will be no loss for Montreal..... we've got Air Transat and Columbus  Smile

So it look like its me and Andrew, vs Neil and Lymanm.. we should have a real debate some time...

Mark
 
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 12:54 am

This debate comes down to the question of whether Air Canada is a private business or a public utility.

If it is a private business, AC should be allowed to act like a real business and do what it needs to do to maximize its value to the shareholders who own the airline. I know that Toronto-bashing is one of our national negative pastimes, alongside navel-gazing, regional/linguistic politics and arguing about whether we're superior or inferior to the Americans, but if running AC like a real business means hubbing people through YYZ, so be it.

If AC is going to be a public utility, then let's run it as such, with mandatory service requirements, subsidies, regulated prices, etc. (That would be a lousy option, but at least we'd be clear about what we expect from AC.)

But AC shouldn't be encouraged to be both.
 
lymanm
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 1:36 am

...FLYYUL, it takes more than browsing through reservation computers and checking reserved seats to understand the concept of hub and spokes...go to adult high school and take economics 101.

Working for Northwest, are you? Well, you're gonna LOVE all the point to point services THEY offer! Wanna go anywhere? You either go thru DTW, DTW or DTW. Either way, your new job does not legitimize your ridiculous claims. Cessnapimp will readily admit he's a moron.

Cap'n Dan, you ferocious nerd, lick my balls.
buhh bye
 
flyyul
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 1:46 am

Negative lymanm, Northwest is an airline with much credibility, unlike AC... AC is a pr nightmare.....

Do you feel comfortable with the following situation, having zero flights between Ottawa/Montreal-Vancouver, and consequently hubbing everybody through YYZ... if you do, and others as well, we clearly need a competitor...

Im not saying that AC should be YUL centric, but its inexcusable that we have dont even have service to Edmonton or Winnipeg, while the O&D combinations for the market surely indicate that there clearly is one, and AC has been flying them for over 60 years....... 60 years, through's Montreal up's and down's, and now as Montreal is on a big up (economy growing as fast as the Canadian average and then some), AC cuts these routes...... Meanwhile there are 11 daily and counting from Toronto, simply inexcusable.

The public would never accept this, but they are definitely blind when it comes to this.. the issue is to raise awareness, and let everybody know all the routes they promised for montreal (IT was Air Canada that wanted the transfer of flights, and told Montreal reports in a news room "AC will make quantum leaps at Dorval, will be Canada's 'Munich')... now take into account all that was said, and try to put on a straight face when you hear news as such  Sad

Mark
 
captaingomes
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 3:00 am

Listen, Air Canada does what's best for them from a business perspective. While that's hard to prove, because they are so unprofitable, why does anybody have to complain? So they cut one flight from 3 to 2. YOU CAN STILL GET A SEAT TO YOUR DESTINATION! Air Canada has lots of experienced people who use more than just load factors on a handful of flights and word of mouth! They use very sophisticated information systems to get the best results necessary.

I do believe that with the advent of Tango, and with WestJet coming more and more to the east, as well as the possible startup of Royal2 as a low cost, eastern based airline, if demands warrants more direct flights from Montreal or Ottawa to some other city in Canada, there will be more flights at some point made available!

If it proves that 2 or even 1 flight from YOW to YWG makes the most profit for Air Canada, with the aircraft being used on another route to make a greater return, then that is what they will try to do!

One last point ... given all that, I tend to agree that Air Canada is rather unpredictable with route additions and cutbacks, but hey, you don't like Air Canada, in time somebody else will be around and you can buy the service from them! And in the end, that WILL hurt Air Canada.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
yow
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 3:19 am

To the yyzers, I'm not whining or anything of the sort...all I did was ask the simple question of where's the logic in cutting capacity on a route at a time of the year when traffic increases?

Since no one has given me a logical answer, (because there isn't one) us non-yyzers must just be a bunch of whiners eh?
 
C-GRYK
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Flyyul

Tue Mar 19, 2002 3:35 am

Mark,
As a respected user on my list, I feel I must say something before I lose respect. You have got to stop this complaining of how Toronto gets so much service and Montreal loses out. You have to realize that airlines are in the game to make money, and it's quite obvious that if service is cut, then that route wasn't making any or enough money. When you say you have load factors, you seem to think that they totally determine profitability, but a flight of 100 people paying $250 per ticket makes that same as a flight of 50 people paying $500 per ticket. With Toronto being the largest city in Canada, it should be no surprise that AC has their fortress hub there, but please, stop thinking that Uncle Milty and his gang are only out there is serve YYZ's needs and take away service just out of spite... it just doesn't work that way. You're a smart guy, but when I keep logging on and seeing you make a bit of a fool out of yourself, I finally felt I needed to say something. It's time for everyone to just be happy that they have decent air service, in these days, you can be halfway across the world in 15 or so hours, heck I was just in Rio 18 hours ago, now I'm at home, I had to connect in NYC to fly Varig but I don't complain, I realize that there isn't a market for RG to serve YYZ with their own equipment. Well, hope I didn't upset you, I'm just trying to make you realize that it's not worth slandering people (YYZ717, who imho is a very knowledgeable member of the forum and it's a pleasure to read most of his posts) or whining about "underserved" airport, of which there are none in this country.

Adios amigo

Jeremy
Think before you type!
 
captaingomes
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 3:42 am

I could care less how many Air Canada A320's are flying in and out of YYZ. I really don't care. The logical answer is this ...


1. Air Canada uses a Hub and spoke route network, and their main hub is Toronto, for whatever reasons they see fit. As such, they direct traffic to other points through Toronto. I agree, that to lots of travellers, that is a nuicanse, but it's how Air Canada thinks they make the most money.
2. They are cutting back capacity on a route at a time of year when traffic increases, because maybe they think that they could make use of that aircraft on another higher yielding route while still meeting demand on the route you are talking about.
3. Maybe Air Canada has other plans for the route, since MAYBE it is a low yield, high capacity route, and Tango might make more sense. As they increase the number of Tango services, they might increase the route you are talking about and other routes.
4. Maybe, the very advanced information system tells them information on an aggregate basis which anybody here, and I mean EVERYBODY here, with no real access to information compared to what Air Canada has ... maybe that information tells them to cut capacity. Maybe they've added capacity in the past and lost more money on the route. Maybe they have to do seat sales.


Bottom line, don't take what I'm saying just because I live close to YYZ. Pretend that I live in Wawa. Then you can read the above information as credible. But if you're just going to take the information I have given you as nonesense, just because I live close to YYZ, then that makes you just a whiner.

I'm all for more direct services from many cities in Canada. I love Canada! And I don't feel superior just because I'm from Toronto! But, if Air Canada makes their money by doing what they are doing, let them do that, and let other carriers come in and do the direct routes and offer the service which is, in all of your opinions so lacking! That way everybody makes money, and everybody has great service. Give it time!
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
captaingomes
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C-GRYK

Tue Mar 19, 2002 3:43 am

Welcome back Jeremy! How was your trip?
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Noise
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YYZers

Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:10 am

To all YYZers, it seems that you guys can't argue withought making dumb and childish insults towards the other forum members. Mark does the effort of getting these stats to prove you guys wrong(which he has done countless times before), and what do you guys do, you call him a whiner and suggest he goes to adult high school. Give me a break! As Andrew said, you guys have no logical answer, therefore YOU ARE WRRROOOOONGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!

You guys are very immature and should be ashamed at yourselves, especially you Lymanm, you make me sick!

Now, back to the debate. Yes, AC is very unpredictable. Remeber when AC announced a 3rd weekly to TPA from YUL, then cancelled it 2 weeks later. What idiots! Any way, yes, AC is too YYZ-centric, and that will probably never change, that is why we need WJ. They will atleast offer some flights to the other domestic cities.
 
captaingomes
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Noise

Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:14 am

Noise, I would like you to disprove the reasons I gave in my last post, and how they are childish? And how can you or anybody realistically claim to know more about Air Canada's operations than Air Canada themselves?

Like I said, if there is a need in the market place, and Air Canada for whatever reason wishes to ignore it, then other carriers will come and fill in the void. How is that so bad?
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
C-GRYK
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Noise

Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:20 am

Chris,
You have never contributed much in terms of positive info to this forum, and when I saw the other day you telling a certain user of this forum to not use the forum, it mad me kind of sick. You are noone special here, this isn't any kind of place for you to be telling people if they should or shouldn't be posting here. You have always whined about how you want more service to YUL, you don't bring any facts to the table. Mark is a genuinely knowledgeable person, even though he does harp on about YYZ "stealing" away service, I have a good amount of respect for him and will listen to him any day. You on the other hand, have a severe lack of knowledge of the business aspect of aviation. I suggest you quit trying to insult other members of this forum, and calling the Toronto based users immature is way out of line. Please, when you post, try not to let your frustrations get the best of you, you end up making yourself look like the immature one.

Jeremy

PS, the trip was awesome, Brazil is a wonderful country I wish more people have the opportunity to go there, great people (not much English though hehehe), great food, great spotting, great looking girls, great beaches, great scenery and great weather.
Think before you type!
 
Noise
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RE: Noise

Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:29 am

Captaingomes, the reason why they are childish is because they have nothing to prove thier point and put down other people who have the info. I never said that other carriers filling in the void is bad, where did you get that?

C-GRYK, you want positive. Ok, what I like about AC being YYZ centric is that I can get anywhere in the world from YUL, with just one stop. Is that ok?

I'm starting to regret I ever joined this forum 2 years and 87 days ago.
 
Noise
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:32 am

But guys, seriously, you don't find it a bit.........strange that there are so many flights from YYZ, yet almost none from YUL, YOW, YWG? AC does claim YUL as it's hub too, you know.
 
yow
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RE: Noise

Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:43 am

Yikes what a heated debate this has turned into! :O

"Like I said, if there is a need in the market place, and Air Canada for whatever reason wishes to ignore it, then other carriers will come and fill in the void. How is that so bad?

Captaingomes, that was very well put.

Some have said that this is not the case and that there is no such thing as an "underserved or ignored" route or market. I, like others are trying to prove that this is in fact the case. That's what I have been trying to say all along is that AC ignores opportunities in the marketplace. All I was doing was providing examples of this. I do it for YOW, b/c that's where I live and it's easiest for me to cite examples from here;, Mark does the same for YUL. It has nothing to do with me wanting to spot more aircraft at my local airport or anything of the sort, b/c don't get me wrong, I too love to go spotting at YYZ.

Heck AC probably even ignores a few blatantly obvious opportunities from YYZ, while at the same time launching routes that make no sense whatsoever, like the short lived routing to JAX for example. A lot of that could very possibly be due to poor management at AC.

Hopefully if there are any more posts to this thread that the virtual shouting match with the foul language will end. Agreed?  Big grin

 
Noise
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RE: Noise

Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:48 am

I honesly thought that the JAX route would work. I just found the flight to Greenville made no sense.
 
yow
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RE: Noise

Tue Mar 19, 2002 5:03 am

JAX might have worked on a seasonal basis, like PBI or RSW.

Noise, good point about Greenville.
 
captaingomes
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RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 5:25 am

Yes the virtual shouting match is dumb! Makes everybody look stupid. However, from an outsider's perspective, it's rather entertaining! Kinda like WWF meets airliners.net!

How about a Royal Rumble in YYZ? Winner gets more flights! Of course we can't hold it anywhere else, because YYZ is the biggest and best airport in Canada, where all others are small and pathetic! Why should we do anything at any other airport? LOL J/k Folks.  Smile
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
flyyul
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RE: Noise

Tue Mar 19, 2002 5:30 am

I have never disputed the Air Canada hub in Toronto....im to simply prove my opinion by the some facts that I see from statistics canada O&D combinations, and the overall numbers that seem to be ignored here, but hecne have markets in Toronto with markets a third of the size, that are being added on a monthly basis.... now it does get frustrating.

For example, YYZ-JAX is a 20,000 pax route. YUL-ATL is an 85,000 pax route, now why a RJ to JAX, and possibly not look into YUL-ATL? Toronto-Orlando is 300,000 pax, Montreal-Orlando 150,000 pax, so why 3 flights daily from Toronto, and only weekend service from Montreal? Why no Tango on Montreal-Vancouver and Calgary,markets of 350,000 pax and 200,000 pax respectively? Now why fly Toronto-Deer Lake??? What is that?

Why fly Toronto-Amsterdam and be the 4th competitor, while Air Canada can be the only one on a Montreal-Brussels route?

Toronto's numbers are huge, and the facility is going to be great. The city is big, and growing, and its a rising star. Regardless, i believe that there are potential markets that AC can serve, and make more $$$$ than some of the one's served from YYZ like (norfolk, richmond, dayton, amsterdam etc etc.)....

Im not a Toronto basher, but I become increasingly annoyed to see valuable and frequencies with high load factors be cut, in favor of retaining the Toronto one. Thats what its all about...

One last thing, why does AC need to serve Raleigh and Greensboro from YYZ, before YOW or YUL gets a service to Raleigh, a high-technology hub which is commonly found in the cities of YOW and YUL, more so per capita than Toronto??????

I could be wrong, ive been wrong before, but id like to read Air Canada's route planning department's mind, and maybe knock some sense into them  Smile

Mark
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

Hub Ops Made Easy

Tue Mar 19, 2002 5:32 am

Before I get started, I want to say I'm not from Toronto, I'm from Ottawa, I now live in Montreal.

It is absolutely infuriating that some of you continue to claim that you know better than AC regarding route profitability. Admit it or not, none of you have that kind of information. And if you did, this is NOT the appropriate forum to post such sensitive information. FLYYUL messing around on his NW trainee computer DOES NOT count as legitamite information! AC is a corporation. They want to make money. Whatever routes/aircraft/crew decisions they make reflect that fact. Do not forget this.

Just to remind you, AC is most profitable using hub and spoke operations. It isn't a hard concept to grasp. In the interest of educating this woefully uninformed group, here is an image of a chart from a book called Airline Deregulation, by Melvin A. Brenner, James O. Leet & Elihu Schott.

http://www.geocities.com/lymanm/Temp/cities.jpg

See? It doesn't get simpler than that, folks. Hub and spoke compared to point to point service. Easy.
buhh bye
 
Noise
Posts: 2011
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 7:38 am

RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 5:36 am

I think we'd all like to do some mind reading Mark. Yet, maybe the people at AC do have a point. Toronto is far more richer and has a higher standard of living than Montreal. This is why AC choose them as a hub. Montreal is not poor, but compared to the rest of Canada, I can understand why we are "underserved". Besides, nobody can ignore the "center of the universe"!
 
Noise
Posts: 2011
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 7:38 am

RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 5:40 am

Lymanm, as I said before, that's the positive side of having a hub in YYZ. You can get to anywhere in the world with just one stop.
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 5:45 am

So noise, if you agree with that chart, and Air Canada as the type of carrier it is, then you will agree that Air Canada does a lot better by using Toronto as a hub, and offering their service in that way, and letting other services such as their own Tango and carriers like Westjet do the other routes? Good!

Now let's leave Air Canada alone, it cannot be everything to everybody. The crown corporation days are over, and that's a good thing! The little agile fighting machines being created by our market place shall serve all Canadians well, if demand exists  Smile.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Cap'n Dan
Topic Author
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 5:49 am

RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 6:56 am

I think we can all agree that there are plenty of routes in this great country of ours that are not served by Air Canada. So what. If AC doesn't want to serve YUL-YEG, or anywhere else for that matter, it's their perogative. Sure, another YOW-YWG flight, or YUL-YEG service would make money, but AC only has so many staff an so many aircraft and obviously they feel as though their resources can be best spent elsewhere. This is why we have competition. If WJ isn't flying YUL-YEG then their resources can be best spent elsewhere too. If a route has the potential to make money an airline will serve it sooner or later.

My beef with AC in this case is their horrible lack of consistency with their scheduling. If they think it's best to have one daily YOW-YWG flight, I can live, but at least do what you say you're going to! It seems as though no schedule lasts more than a week these days...

Lymanm, you better watch out, or I'll post the contents of your IE history...and I think you know as well as I how offended you'll get. Free cake for me at Les2Ps.
 
SafeFlyer
Posts: 561
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 6:41 am

RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 7:09 am

As I said in my Trip Report (see the TR forum), AC, Never Again! Fly WJ or TS.

For those needing proofs on the rentability of the YOW-YVR service; I flew last summer AC 1139 762 and AC 3908 A320

AC 1139: 5 seats empty in economy.
AC 3908: overbooked on a Tuesday night at 11:00pm

And the former sch.
AC 3933: 9:30 am 763
AC 1139: 5:15 pm 762
AC 3909: 7:30 pm A320

And YYZs should also explain why 80% of the pax on my last flights via YYZ where not from T. O.
 
yow
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:47 pm

RE: AC YOW-YWG Reductions?

Tue Mar 19, 2002 7:17 am

Well said Capn'Dan about AC constantly changing their minds. It's annoying when they announce a new route with great fanfare, but then drop a route without mentioning a thing. Or likewise with Tango, they don't mention that a so-called "new flight" is really just replacing a mainline flight. (And I'm not just talking about YOW-YWG regarding the original question at the top of this thread, they've done that from YYZ, YUL, etc. as well.) The public would appreciate having a full explanation of what's going on.

Besides saving them money, no wonder AC doesn't produce a paper version of their timetable anymore. Since they change half their schedule every 2 weeks (I'm exaggerating of course), a paper version would become obsolete before even getting published.

By the way I started a new thread about WJ. It's meant to be fun and civilized, with no facts or heated debates needed to support what you guess. Everyone is welcome to join in that discussion.