sccutler
Posts: 5790
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:00 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
747Whale wrote:
Do airlines cut corners? Yes, unquestionably. If you work for an airline and you don't believe it, you're blind. Probably deaf, and dumb, too. Whether it's mechanics falsifying a work card and applying incorrect grease to a stabilizer trim jack screw, applying incorrect rigging to a Beech 1900, to placing hazardous unsecured "COMAT" oxygen generators in the lower cargo of a passenger operation. Yes, they do. Occasionally they get caught.


If airlines were not cutting corners the FAA fine coffers would be empty. Since 2000 the big four (AA, DL, UA & WN) paid a total of 137.5 million in safety violation fines.... 747Whale very informative post in its entirety.

bob75013 wrote:
QXorVX wrote:
Do the recent incidents at Southwest not at least support this a little? When you look at which airlines are fined for MX issues it seems like WN is frequently on that list. Not to mention a couple high profile (one of which was deadly) engine issues in the last couple years. I'm happy everyone is such a fan of Southwest, but some of your trust may be displaced.


No it does not.

Oh please show us your "list" of which airlines received mx fines so we can determine whether WN is on the "list" more frequently.

A quick web search shows plenty of articles about AA . UA, Dl and other airlines receiving fines -- Southwest too.


Here some data. Interpret the data to formulate your own opinion. From what I see since 2000 WN is the 2nd most fined (by dollar amount) airline and last in incidents both for safety violations

WN : https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst. ... t-airlines
DL: https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst. ... -air-lines
UA: https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst. ... ontinental
AA: https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst. ... n-airlines


That is, at first glance, some fascinating information.

It is interesting to consider the correlation between the quantity of "aviation safety" violations, and the total dollar value.

Could we, from that data, conclude that Southwest was being singled out for larger penalties than the other carriers because it is less politically influential (or perhaps, some other reason)? Maybe.

From the same data, could we conclude that Southwest was find more because, while it had fewer events a violation, they were a greater severity? Maybe.

All good food for thought.

What we do know, however, is that no airline has come close to Southwest's volume of operations with anything remotely approaching Southwest's record of safety. Again, you cannot dodge the inevitability of loss that accompanies unsafe practices.

As for the original question, again, I think we can safely say that the principal problem is an unresolved union contract and, while I don't believe is anything unsafe about the airline, I prefer they get that issue resolved because, in the long term, it is unlikely to improve morale. And that, also, cannot be good for business.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
B737900ER
Posts: 995
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:54 pm

747Whale wrote:
Likewise, a mechanic may have a particular assignment, but his overall duty always includes inspecting and looking for discrepancies. Attempting to censure a mechanic for doing that is a very, very dangerous thing, and in this singular case, SWA was caught.

Everybody who believes this was an isolated case, stand on your head in the corner until the sense drains back into your skull.

Do airlines cut corners? Yes, unquestionably. If you work for an airline and you don't believe it, you're blind. Probably deaf, and dumb, too. Whether it's mechanics falsifying a work card and applying incorrect grease to a stabilizer trim jack screw, applying incorrect rigging to a Beech 1900, to placing hazardous unsecured "COMAT" oxygen generators in the lower cargo of a passenger operation. Yes, they do. Occasionally they get caught.

Don't for a moment think or suggest these are isolated to third world operations. You'll find them anywhere that aircraft are flown, anywhere in the world.


If nobody believes what was just written, ask yourself, why do airlines ferry airplanes all the way to China or El Salvador for aircraft maintenance? Most of you wouldn’t have your car worked on in El Salvador or China. Think about that.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7256
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:30 pm

Well, given what the WN unions are saying, I guess I would rather have my aircraft done in El Salvador, which is by all accounts an excellent facility.

And I would be happy to have my car worked on in El Salvador, or Cuba for that matter, because they actually know how to fix things rather than just replace parts until they discover the one that is broken.
 
747Whale
Posts: 507
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:41 pm

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:44 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Well, given what the WN unions are saying, I guess I would rather have my aircraft done in El Salvador, which is by all accounts an excellent facility.

And I would be happy to have my car worked on in El Salvador, or Cuba for that matter, because they actually know how to fix things rather than just replace parts until they discover the one that is broken.


Given that you're describing taking your aircraft somewhere to have it worked on, it's evident that you don't work on aircraft. You really wouldn't know about troubleshooting vs. parts replacement because you don't do it, do you?

Why make definitives that sound as though you know, when you don't?
 
B737900ER
Posts: 995
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:05 am

wjcandee wrote:
Well, given what the WN unions are saying, I guess I would rather have my aircraft done in El Salvador, which is by all accounts an excellent facility.

And I would be happy to have my car worked on in El Salvador, or Cuba for that matter, because they actually know how to fix things rather than just replace parts until they discover the one that is broken.

WN maintenance is done in El Salvador. And no they don’t fix things. Overseas repair stations are all about paperwork compliance. Do you really think a revolving door repair station where the majority of workers are unskilled and inexperienced can really overhaul an airplane faster than an airlines own facility, full of expertise and resources? Add to that no oversight except an airline tech rep, who’s job is to make sure the timeline doesn’t slip. It’s a for profit business who’s one goal is to deliver the aircraft back on time with all of the paperwork signed off. I can tell you’ve never taken part in an aircraft overhaul. Otherwise you’d know what they do is unrealistic if performed throughly and safely.

You don’t send anything to China or El Salvador for the craftsmanship.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7256
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:11 am

747Whale wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Well, given what the WN unions are saying, I guess I would rather have my aircraft done in El Salvador, which is by all accounts an excellent facility.

And I would be happy to have my car worked on in El Salvador, or Cuba for that matter, because they actually know how to fix things rather than just replace parts until they discover the one that is broken.


Given that you're describing taking your aircraft somewhere to have it worked on, it's evident that you don't work on aircraft. You really wouldn't know about troubleshooting vs. parts replacement because you don't do it, do you?

Why make definitives that sound as though you know, when you don't?


Because I was talking about my car.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7256
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:15 am

B737900ER wrote:
It’s a for profit business who’s one goal is to deliver the aircraft back on time with all of the paperwork signed off.


Which sounds just like the airline, if you believe the Southwest mechanics.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:30 am

According to AirlineRatings.com, Southwest only has 3 stars out of 7 in safety. Why is that?

https://www.airlineratings.com/ratings/ ... -airlines/
 
Boof02671
Posts: 619
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:39 am

WN isn’t using aeroman anymore
 
747Whale
Posts: 507
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:44 am

Ziyulu wrote:
According to AirlineRatings.com, Southwest only has 3 stars out of 7 in safety. Why is that?

https://www.airlineratings.com/ratings/ ... -airlines/


Who cares? It's not even a US company; it's nothing more than a web site in Australia, making judgement on a US carrier.

It might mean something to the internet-loving rubber-boned millennial generation that lives and dies by "likes," but really doesn't amount to a hill of beans otherwise.

wjcandee wrote:
747Whale wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Well, given what the WN unions are saying, I guess I would rather have my aircraft done in El Salvador, which is by all accounts an excellent facility.

And I would be happy to have my car worked on in El Salvador, or Cuba for that matter, because they actually know how to fix things rather than just replace parts until they discover the one that is broken.


Given that you're describing taking your aircraft somewhere to have it worked on, it's evident that you don't work on aircraft. You really wouldn't know about troubleshooting vs. parts replacement because you don't do it, do you?

Why make definitives that sound as though you know, when you don't?


Because I was talking about my car.


You specifically called out having your "aircraft" serviced in El Salvador, and then went on to say that you hear it's a good facility. Not only do you not know about servicing aircraft (or cars, apparently), but you have no experience with the facility, and are talking based on hearsay of what you *think* it might be. Another internet expert strikes. Dandy.
 
 
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1701
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:29 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:16 am

Ziyulu wrote:
According to AirlineRatings.com, Southwest only has 3 stars out of 7 in safety. Why is that?

https://www.airlineratings.com/ratings/ ... -airlines/


Take a few moments to figure out how they compile their ratings and you’d understand. Hint, 3 of the stars are based upon taking part in an international auditing program that most LCC, such as WN, do not participate in. If they cut a check to that organization, they’d have 6/7.

Try again.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1701
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:20 am

Boof02671 wrote:
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113942431

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11 ... bing-truth


WN heavy mx takes place in PAE, IND, MCI, and DAL. WN does not outsource to Aeroman any longer.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
Passedv1
Posts: 605
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:48 am

It's the union equivilant of management crying poverty during contract negotiations. Look at the miraculous turn around in margins in the 4th quarter that AS has made since all of their wage arbitrations are now completed.

And the beat goes on.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7256
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:18 am

747Whale wrote:
You specifically called out having your "aircraft" serviced in El Salvador, and then went on to say that you hear it's a good facility. Not only do you not know about servicing aircraft (or cars, apparently), but you have no experience with the facility, and are talking based on hearsay of what you *think* it might be. Another internet expert strikes. Dandy.


I do hear that Aeroman is a good facility.

And you have absolutely no idea -- none -- of who I am and what I do and what I know about and what I don't.

And I don't care.

But thanks for attacking me. It's always fun to see people get their backs up over things on the Internet.

Sad because I actually have enjoyed reading several knowledgeable and interesting posts of yours.

PS The Salvadorans must be clueless and useless. https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... iance.html
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9027
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:47 am

Ziyulu wrote:
According to AirlineRatings.com, Southwest only has 3 stars out of 7 in safety. Why is that?

https://www.airlineratings.com/ratings/ ... -airlines/


Because you keep texting in your votes?
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
greendot
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:10 am

smokeybandit wrote:
Not to downplay the concerns,but, is this a power play move due to:

"Both Southwest and American mechanics also are in the middle of protracted bargaining talks over new contracts."


Motivation aside, the facts are still the facts right? Don't these problems exist nevertheless? Let's say these issues are being brought into the light because of the union(s). Does that mean they were covered up before?
 
baqnav
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:08 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:45 am

It would be amazing if MCDU responded to this CBS article, mostly about American Airlines mechanics complaints. You all should watch the video included in the OPs post. And then there is his airline (MCDU) and its’ history of accidents, runway incursions, FAA fines, and the like. And his comments about pilots “always” asking for a shortcuts on busy airport arrivals are a joke. Claims of high taxi speeds, go back to the 1980s. Ask a controller how this works at DCA, LGA or? This persons (MCDU) attitude living in the past,and they live to expolit it.
My opions are mine, not my employers
 
Boof02671
Posts: 619
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:09 am

usflyguy wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113942431

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11 ... bing-truth


WN heavy mx takes place in PAE, IND, MCI, and DAL. WN does not outsource to Aeroman any longer.

Already stated that in post 59. But AA still does.
 
747Whale
Posts: 507
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:41 pm

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:12 am

wjcandee wrote:

I do hear that Aeroman is a good facility.



As long as you hear it's good, that's all that really matters, because what counts is what a friend of a friend of a friend heard someone say they heard from somebody else.
 
WBM
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:19 am

greendot wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
Not to downplay the concerns,but, is this a power play move due to:

"Both Southwest and American mechanics also are in the middle of protracted bargaining talks over new contracts."


Motivation aside, the facts are still the facts right? Don't these problems exist nevertheless? Let's say these issues are being brought into the light because of the union(s). Does that mean they were covered up before?


Facts are facts, but not all facts are created equal. It is quite possible for something to be both true, and not important. The facts presented in the original linked story do not appear to me to be very substantial.
 
Boof02671
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:20 am

Aeroman has only 163 certified mechanics while they have 2,231 non-certified mechanics.

http://av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.as ... o=RJEY598H
 
Boof02671
Posts: 619
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:21 am

WBM wrote:
greendot wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
Not to downplay the concerns,but, is this a power play move due to:

"Both Southwest and American mechanics also are in the middle of protracted bargaining talks over new contracts."


Motivation aside, the facts are still the facts right? Don't these problems exist nevertheless? Let's say these issues are being brought into the light because of the union(s). Does that mean they were covered up before?


Facts are facts, but not all facts are created equal. It is quite possible for something to be both true, and not important. The facts presented in the original linked story do not appear to me to be very substantial.

You do know AA has settled at least six whistleblower claims with mechanics?
 
B737900ER
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:35 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Aeroman has only 163 certified mechanics while they have 2,231 non-certified mechanics.

http://av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.as ... o=RJEY598H

But they’re an excellent facility. I’m sure those 2,231 non-certified mechanics are highly skilled and know exactly what kind of corrosion they’re looking at. And all the illegal sheet metal repairs that have to be reworked when it gets back, that’s just them being more creative than the rest of us. Excellent facility. Or at least I’m told....
 
747Whale
Posts: 507
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:39 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Aeroman has only 163 certified mechanics while they have 2,231 non-certified mechanics.

http://av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.as ... o=RJEY598H


In a repair station, mechanics work under the station certificate, rather than their own. It's not uncommon in repair stations to have numerous uncertificated mechanics, and it's not common for mechanics to sign off work using their certificate, even when they hold a mechanic certificate (eg, A&P).

When I work on my own, I use my maintenance certification to do the work and to sign off repairs, maintenance, etc. When working under a repair station, however, the authority belongs to the repair station and I don't typically do work under my own certificate (though I can). Some repair stations will have mechanics sign with their certificate, but in most cases the work is done under the station certificate, with mechanic initials on work cards or inspection sheets.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4680
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:55 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
747Whale wrote:
Do airlines cut corners? Yes, unquestionably. If you work for an airline and you don't believe it, you're blind. Probably deaf, and dumb, too. Whether it's mechanics falsifying a work card and applying incorrect grease to a stabilizer trim jack screw, applying incorrect rigging to a Beech 1900, to placing hazardous unsecured "COMAT" oxygen generators in the lower cargo of a passenger operation. Yes, they do. Occasionally they get caught.


If airlines were not cutting corners the FAA fine coffers would be empty. Since 2000 the big four (AA, DL, UA & WN) paid a total of 137.5 million in safety violation fines.... 747Whale very informative post in its entirety.

bob75013 wrote:
QXorVX wrote:
Do the recent incidents at Southwest not at least support this a little? When you look at which airlines are fined for MX issues it seems like WN is frequently on that list. Not to mention a couple high profile (one of which was deadly) engine issues in the last couple years. I'm happy everyone is such a fan of Southwest, but some of your trust may be displaced.


No it does not.

Oh please show us your "list" of which airlines received mx fines so we can determine whether WN is on the "list" more frequently.

A quick web search shows plenty of articles about AA . UA, Dl and other airlines receiving fines -- Southwest too.


Here some data. Interpret the data to formulate your own opinion. From what I see since 2000 WN is the 2nd most fined (by dollar amount) airline and last in incidents both for safety violations

WN : https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst. ... t-airlines
DL: https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst. ... -air-lines
UA: https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst. ... ontinental
AA: https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst. ... n-airlines


Good links. WN is the second most fined for safety violations since 2000...but they are a distant second. They are also 4th, (out of the 4 listed), in TOTAL fines.

They are way behind AA in total safety violation fines, and marginally ahead of United. Delta leads the pack with the lowest dollar amount of fines, but WAY ahead in dollar amount of total fines.


__________Safety Fines --------Total Fines

AA ______ $99,300,594______ $127,417,835

Southwest__$17,516,375______$42,879,301

UA________$13,184,790______$77,448,777

Delta______$7,554,800_______$284,201,203

These numbers don't indicate to me that WN's safety culture is significantly out of whack with its legacy competitors...at least judging by the fines...but you know what they say about statistics and statisticians.
What the...?
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7256
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:05 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Aeroman has only 163 certified mechanics while they have 2,231 non-certified mechanics.

http://av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.as ... o=RJEY598H


That's a little misleading. Actually, a high percentage of their workers have the Salvadoran-authority's equivalent of an A&P, and, rather unusually, Aeroman sends a number (I guess it is 163) to the US to get their US A&P, which is what is reflected on the FAA web site. They also have an employee turnover of 2-3% per year. But whatever.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 619
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:02 am

747Whale wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Aeroman has only 163 certified mechanics while they have 2,231 non-certified mechanics.

http://av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.as ... o=RJEY598H


In a repair station, mechanics work under the station certificate, rather than their own. It's not uncommon in repair stations to have numerous uncertificated mechanics, and it's not common for mechanics to sign off work using their certificate, even when they hold a mechanic certificate (eg, A&P).

When I work on my own, I use my maintenance certification to do the work and to sign off repairs, maintenance, etc. When working under a repair station, however, the authority belongs to the repair station and I don't typically do work under my own certificate (though I can). Some repair stations will have mechanics sign with their certificate, but in most cases the work is done under the station certificate, with mechanic initials on work cards or inspection sheets.

Someone licensed has to sign off the work, a non-licensed mechanic cannot sign off any work.
 
747Whale
Posts: 507
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:12 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
[
Someone licensed has to sign off the work, a non-licensed mechanic cannot sign off any work.


Actually, no. In a repair station, as I explained, that's not the case.

In a repair station, the work is done by the repair station, not by the mechanic.

Again, I'm a long time mechanic. I've worked in repair stations as a mechanic and inspector. In either capacity, "signoffs" are not done with my mechanic certificate number as it would be if I were using my own authority; the "signoffs" are done using the repair station certificate as the authority. I can sign work, but in most cases, the work doesn't have my certificate number; it has that of the repair station, which is the authority granted to do the work. Some repair stations require their personnel to hold certification, but in others, a great many of the workers may hold no certification at all.

The holder of the mechanic certificate ("A&P") gets paid more, in each case, but seldom actually uses his or her certificate.
 
User avatar
9lflyguy
Posts: 161
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:33 pm

Yup, its contract negotiation time. Let's put out some bad press to pressure the company to give in to our demands. Typical union tactic. Nothing else to see here. Southwest is still one of the safest airlines in the sky flying a well proven airframe. I would have no concern over flying them any day.
Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 712, 722, 732, 733, 734, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 763, 772, CR2, CR7, CR9, DHA, D8B, D8C, D95, E140, E145, E170, E175, E190, M82, M88, M90, S340
 
Boof02671
Posts: 619
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:00 pm

At US and now AA a non-licensed cannot sign off any paperwork at all.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 619
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:02 pm

Why are you all losing sight of the fact that AA has settled at least six cases with the FAA under the whistleblower act and made the mechanics sign a NDA.

That is a fact, not union propaganda.
 
B737900ER
Posts: 995
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:02 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Aeroman has only 163 certified mechanics while they have 2,231 non-certified mechanics.

http://av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.as ... o=RJEY598H


That's a little misleading. Actually, a high percentage of their workers have the Salvadoran-authority's equivalent of an A&P, and, rather unusually, Aeroman sends a number (I guess it is 163) to the US to get their US A&P, which is what is reflected on the FAA web site. They also have an employee turnover of 2-3% per year. But whatever.

Almost none of what you say is accurate. First you “hear” that it’s a good facility. Now you know their turnover rates. Out of curiosity, since youre in the know, what is the percentage of workers with the “Salvadoran A&P equivalent”. Since their own website says they’ll take you if all you have is some automotive mechanic experience

And this is why this site has turned into what it is now. People with actual knowledge of a situation are run off by people with no knowledge. But I guess that’s the world now...

P.S. remember the JetBlue A320 with the cocked landing gear at LAX? Brought to you courtesy of Aeroman
 
kiowa
Posts: 386
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:23 pm

9lflyguy wrote:
Yup, its contract negotiation time. Let's put out some bad press to pressure the company to give in to our demands. Typical union tactic. Nothing else to see here. Southwest is still one of the safest airlines in the sky flying a well proven airframe. I would have no concern over flying them any day.


Total opinion. I avoid flying them for my own opinions. My belief is that they take way to many shortcuts and sacrifice safety by doing so but that is just my opinion. Your statement is only your opinion, not fact.
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 150
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Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:34 pm

B737900ER wrote:

If nobody believes what was just written, ask yourself, why do airlines ferry airplanes all the way to China or El Salvador for aircraft maintenance? Most of you wouldn’t have your car worked on in El Salvador or China. Think about that.


Because they'll do the job cheaper, on time, with no political agendas, and do what they're being paid to do.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7256
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:38 pm

B737900ER wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Aeroman has only 163 certified mechanics while they have 2,231 non-certified mechanics.

http://av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.as ... o=RJEY598H


That's a little misleading. Actually, a high percentage of their workers have the Salvadoran-authority's equivalent of an A&P, and, rather unusually, Aeroman sends a number (I guess it is 163) to the US to get their US A&P, which is what is reflected on the FAA web site. They also have an employee turnover of 2-3% per year. But whatever.

Almost none of what you say is accurate. First you “hear” that it’s a good facility. Now you know their turnover rates. Out of curiosity, since youre in the know, what is the percentage of workers with the “Salvadoran A&P equivalent”. Since their own website says they’ll take you if all you have is some automotive mechanic experience

And this is why this site has turned into what it is now. People with actual knowledge of a situation are run off by people with no knowledge. But I guess that’s the world now...

P.S. remember the JetBlue A320 with the cocked landing gear at LAX? Brought to you courtesy of Aeroman


Actually, what ruined this site is people like you mocking and bullying everybody with a different opinion or who states facts (and they are facts) that inconveniently contradict your fervent belief. And belief/opinion is all you are offering, regardless of how you try to frame your expertise. That the mods allow it is disgraceful.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7256
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:21 pm

B737900ER wrote:
P.S. remember the JetBlue A320 with the cocked landing gear at LAX? Brought to you courtesy of Aeroman


Actually, the US Senate looked into that, and the one with the nosegear issue had never been at Aeroman (at least prior to the nosegear incident).
 
kiowa
Posts: 386
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:32 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
B737900ER wrote:

If nobody believes what was just written, ask yourself, why do airlines ferry airplanes all the way to China or El Salvador for aircraft maintenance? Most of you wouldn’t have your car worked on in El Salvador or China. Think about that.


Because they'll do the job cheaper, on time, with no political agendas, and do what they're being paid to do.


Well, cheaper anyway. not so sure about your other reasons.
 
flylowhou
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:32 pm

btw WN stop sending planes to El Salvador two years ago...
 
many321
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:15 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:05 pm

wjcandee wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

That's a little misleading. Actually, a high percentage of their workers have the Salvadoran-authority's equivalent of an A&P, and, rather unusually, Aeroman sends a number (I guess it is 163) to the US to get their US A&P, which is what is reflected on the FAA web site. They also have an employee turnover of 2-3% per year. But whatever.

Almost none of what you say is accurate. First you “hear” that it’s a good facility. Now you know their turnover rates. Out of curiosity, since youre in the know, what is the percentage of workers with the “Salvadoran A&P equivalent”. Since their own website says they’ll take you if all you have is some automotive mechanic experience

And this is why this site has turned into what it is now. People with actual knowledge of a situation are run off by people with no knowledge. But I guess that’s the world now...

P.S. remember the JetBlue A320 with the cocked landing gear at LAX? Brought to you courtesy of Aeroman


Actually, what ruined this site is people like you mocking and bullying everybody with a different opinion or who states facts (and they are facts) that inconveniently contradict your fervent belief. And belief/opinion is all you are offering, regardless of how you try to frame your expertise. That the mods allow it is disgraceful.


I agree. I had little incident a few days back with a certain poster who was belittling someone else and pushing his 'facts' with a certain condescension that frankly pissed me off. I had to step in, give them actual facts with a little tone. Still waiting for their response. That's why I barely come here anymore.
 
GoSharks
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:23 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:30 pm

B737900ER wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Aeroman has only 163 certified mechanics while they have 2,231 non-certified mechanics.

http://av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.as ... o=RJEY598H


That's a little misleading. Actually, a high percentage of their workers have the Salvadoran-authority's equivalent of an A&P, and, rather unusually, Aeroman sends a number (I guess it is 163) to the US to get their US A&P, which is what is reflected on the FAA web site. They also have an employee turnover of 2-3% per year. But whatever.

Almost none of what you say is accurate. First you “hear” that it’s a good facility. Now you know their turnover rates. Out of curiosity, since youre in the know, what is the percentage of workers with the “Salvadoran A&P equivalent”. Since their own website says they’ll take you if all you have is some automotive mechanic experience

And this is why this site has turned into what it is now. People with actual knowledge of a situation are run off by people with no knowledge. But I guess that’s the world now...

P.S. remember the JetBlue A320 with the cocked landing gear at LAX? Brought to you courtesy of Aeroman

I have no stake in this game but you have not proven yourself to have any knowledge of the situation. All I’ve seen are attacks on this 2nd page.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2367
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:43 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Why are you all losing sight of the fact that AA has settled at least six cases with the FAA under the whistleblower act and made the mechanics sign a NDA.

That is a fact, not union propaganda.


Cleary AA has not changed this still appears to be happening https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYVuGxqdjkw

flylowhou wrote:
btw WN stop sending planes to El Salvador two years ago...


With their recent proposal, they want to resume it....
 
kiowa
Posts: 386
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:12 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Why are you all losing sight of the fact that AA has settled at least six cases with the FAA under the whistleblower act and made the mechanics sign a NDA.

That is a fact, not union propaganda.


Cleary AA has not changed this still appears to be happening https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYVuGxqdjkw

flylowhou wrote:
btw WN stop sending planes to El Salvador two years ago...


With their recent proposal, they want to resume it....


Do you think they want to resume outsourcing as a tactic against their mechanics? Is it just posturing??
 
sohanb82
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:37 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:21 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
747Whale wrote:
Do airlines cut corners? Yes, unquestionably. If you work for an airline and you don't believe it, you're blind. Probably deaf, and dumb, too. Whether it's mechanics falsifying a work card and applying incorrect grease to a stabilizer trim jack screw, applying incorrect rigging to a Beech 1900, to placing hazardous unsecured "COMAT" oxygen generators in the lower cargo of a passenger operation. Yes, they do. Occasionally they get caught.


If airlines were not cutting corners the FAA fine coffers would be empty. Since 2000 the big four (AA, DL, UA & WN) paid a total of 137.5 million in safety violation fines.... 747Whale very informative post in its entirety.

bob75013 wrote:
QXorVX wrote:
Do the recent incidents at Southwest not at least support this a little? When you look at which airlines are fined for MX issues it seems like WN is frequently on that list. Not to mention a couple high profile (one of which was deadly) engine issues in the last couple years. I'm happy everyone is such a fan of Southwest, but some of your trust may be displaced.


No it does not.

Oh please show us your "list" of which airlines received mx fines so we can determine whether WN is on the "list" more frequently.

A quick web search shows plenty of articles about AA . UA, Dl and other airlines receiving fines -- Southwest too.


Here some data. Interpret the data to formulate your own opinion. From what I see since 2000 WN is the 2nd most fined (by dollar amount) airline and last in incidents both for safety violations

WN : https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst. ... t-airlines
DL: https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst. ... -air-lines
UA: https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst. ... ontinental
AA: https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst. ... n-airlines


Oh god AA.

Does anyone know why WN keeps getting these violations. Is it a recurring theme or a whole slew of problems?
 
sccutler
Posts: 5790
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:28 am

kiowa wrote:
9lflyguy wrote:
Yup, its contract negotiation time. Let's put out some bad press to pressure the company to give in to our demands. Typical union tactic. Nothing else to see here. Southwest is still one of the safest airlines in the sky flying a well proven airframe. I would have no concern over flying them any day.


Total opinion. I avoid flying them for my own opinions. My belief is that they take way to many shortcuts and sacrifice safety by doing so but that is just my opinion. Your statement is only your opinion, not fact.


The record speaks for itself; by any rational statistical measure, Southwest is at the very highest tier of safe carriers. You cannot have unsafe practices and a huge volume of traffic without losses.

Out of curiosity, can you share with us what "shortcuts" Southwest takes? It might save a life!
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Boof02671
Posts: 619
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:04 pm

 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8186
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:11 pm

So the reason why CBS did not speak to mechanics at airlines other than AA and WN is because?????????????
Hopefully, it is because at those other carriers mechanics are not feeling pressured to put a/c back into service, thereby endangering the travelling public.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7256
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:16 pm

Well, this is all apparently orchestrated, and the question then becomes by whom and to what end. Unlikely that it's just about safety at these two carriers.
 
kiowa
Posts: 386
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Mechanics and FA’s say airline is unsafe

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:48 pm

sccutler wrote:
kiowa wrote:
9lflyguy wrote:
Yup, its contract negotiation time. Let's put out some bad press to pressure the company to give in to our demands. Typical union tactic. Nothing else to see here. Southwest is still one of the safest airlines in the sky flying a well proven airframe. I would have no concern over flying them any day.


Total opinion. I avoid flying them for my own opinions. My belief is that they take way to many shortcuts and sacrifice safety by doing so but that is just my opinion. Your statement is only your opinion, not fact.


The record speaks for itself; by any rational statistical measure, Southwest is at the very highest tier of safe carriers. You cannot have unsafe practices and a huge volume of traffic without losses.

Out of curiosity, can you share with us what "shortcuts" Southwest takes? It might save a life!


Sounds like 'flame bait". Southwest shortcuts are well known and without getting into specific agencies, I will just say that I avoid southwest for my own beliefs and opinions. Just like your opinion about them being at a high tier of safety, I believe they are not.

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