A388
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:39 pm

FlyRow wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
What's the smart money on in terms of eventual KLM narrow body renewal ? Is a consolidated pan group type likely whatever that type may be ?


Maybe, Dutch ground workers have stated that they prefer containerised a320's instead of the manuel loaded 737.
But that doesn't say much, it's the pilot/crew training that is the big issue for KLM which has to be factored in to the price picture.

I do believe KLM techniek/technic can maintain the a320 already although i'm not 100% sure about it.

It will be a total price picture, but I would be very surprised if the narrowbody order would be not-grouped. A hop order maybe, KLM did that with cityhopper. But I would expect the narrowbody order to be shared.

However, they could still operate two types. KLM+Transavia is large enough to warrent a order of type 1, with Air France for type 2. The size of the order is probably enough to not feel the cost of operating two types.


I agree with you FlyRow. I see KL/HV go for the MAX as HV is already rumored to go for the MAX. AF will go for Airbus (A220/A320NEO). It makes sense for them this way, cost wise speaking because they already operate the 737NG and A320CEO respectively.

A388
 
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Polot
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:46 pm

zkojq wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
The B737MAX was indeed the preferred choice by KLM. But, since the arrival of Smith it seems the CEO's of KLM and Air France have less influence and that Smith really wants to push a further integration within the Group, including simplified brands and fleets. That's why the Airbus-rumours are getting stronger as it is a number's game.


IMO in an age where IAG has focused on a single narrowbody mainline fleet type and where Lufthansa Group has (with the exception of Swiss' CSeries) consolidated to a single narrowbody fleet type (nearly all of which have CFM56 engines), AFKL will surely be forced to do the same. Then again, maybe in a few years time they will end up owning Norwegian or Volotea - thus making any consolidation to a single fleet type at this time pointless.

The difference is all the LH group and IAG airlines independently settled on the same narrow body type before they were part of a conglomerate. LH/IAG didn’t transform a 737NG operator into a A320 one.

Turning KLM/Transavia into a A320 operator (or AF into a 737 one, after all I think the AF/KLM 737 fleet is larger than the A320 one but I could be wrong) is a huge expense with questionable benefit. Mechanics/crews need to be retrained, possibly new ground equipment needs to be bought (if moving from 737 to containerized A320), etc. The KL/HV 737 fleet and AF A320 fleet are both large enough to support both types, and the economics of the 737 and A320 are close enough that there is not a huge savings operating one over the other.
 
sirtoby
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:28 pm

Look who did a test/demonstration flight in AMS today...
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/pr-zgq#
 
76er
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:44 pm

sirtoby wrote:
Look who did a test/demonstration flight in AMS today...


Pratt engines. In other words, forget it. Unfortunately, I might add. :banghead:
 
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Polot
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:49 pm

76er wrote:
sirtoby wrote:
Look who did a test/demonstration flight in AMS today...


Pratt engines. In other words, forget it. Unfortunately, I might add. :banghead:

As oppose to its direct competitor the A220...only available with Pratt engines?

If AF/KL want something smaller than a A320/738 (I don’t see them going for the A319neo or 7MG) they are going to have to accept Pratts.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:07 pm

Polot wrote:
zkojq wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
The B737MAX was indeed the preferred choice by KLM. But, since the arrival of Smith it seems the CEO's of KLM and Air France have less influence and that Smith really wants to push a further integration within the Group, including simplified brands and fleets. That's why the Airbus-rumours are getting stronger as it is a number's game.



I think the AF/KLM 737 fleet is larger than the A320 one but I could be wrong

AF A320 family: 102
KL 737 family: 50
 
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Polot
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:12 pm

RalXWB wrote:
Polot wrote:
zkojq wrote:



I think the AF/KLM 737 fleet is larger than the A320 one but I could be wrong

AF A320 family: 102
KL 737 family: 50

+ 39 737s at Transavia + 30 737s at Transavia France (according to airfleets).
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:17 pm

Polot wrote:
76er wrote:
sirtoby wrote:
Look who did a test/demonstration flight in AMS today...


Pratt engines. In other words, forget it. Unfortunately, I might add. :banghead:

As oppose to its direct competitor the A220...only available with Pratt engines?

If AF/KL want something smaller than a A320/738 (I don’t see them going for the A319neo or 7MG) they are going to have to accept Pratts.

Indeed. Their regional fleet (Cityhopper) is vital for their operations, enabling to connect AMS with all kinds of small of smaller airports in the UK, Scandinavia and Eastern Europe.

If the A220 or E2 is ruled out, KL could turn to the MRJ, which has.... ooops, also Pratts :rotfl:

I really don't think KL has a problem with Pratts. I do think the A220 is too large for Cityhopper though. As for that E2 demo flight, it was somewhat overdue. It was to happen earlier but I believe there was a little issue with scheduling.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:27 pm

LA704 wrote:
Boair wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
No such thing as a seat limit for hop. There are no rules like us rj operators with a max seating.

Hop could operate a A340 like Lufthansa Cityline if they'd choose too.


Hop! can't operate aircrafts with more than 110 seats so A220 will have to be with Air France.

Link (in french):
https://www.air-journal.fr/2019-01-21-l ... 09835.html


For me this rules out the A221. If it can't be operated by HOP, the longer version will be more attractive.
My prediction is A223 to replace A318/319, together with 320neo/321neo, possibly some LR. Not sure about the LR, CDG/ORY isn't that much closer to the US than FRA, and LH said it lacks range, especially as AF usually has denser configurations. Possibly some 789 top-up to keep Boeing calm.


One could do a W20Y90 version to fit in the BCS1 under HOP! for longer thinner trips (Delta's A220-100 has 109 seats). The Embraer 190s are already a W28Y72 version. The A220-300 would be the A319 replacement (what's the longest current Air France A319 route?).

As for P&W engines on the A220/BCS1/3, they haven't been a problem here as they have been on the A320neo family.
 
Breathe
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:07 pm

FlyRow wrote:
Breathe wrote:
beechnut wrote:

Not so, at least until Brexit. The wings are manufactured by Bombardier (ex-Shorts) in Belfast.

Beech

After Brexit, Belfast will still remain part of the continent of Europe.

You call the british islands part of the European continent? Blasphemy!!
Don't let them hear you say this, they will throw you in the tower of London.

:rotfl:
 
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Polot
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:45 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
LA704 wrote:
Boair wrote:

Hop! can't operate aircrafts with more than 110 seats so A220 will have to be with Air France.

Link (in french):
https://www.air-journal.fr/2019-01-21-l ... 09835.html


For me this rules out the A221. If it can't be operated by HOP, the longer version will be more attractive.
My prediction is A223 to replace A318/319, together with 320neo/321neo, possibly some LR. Not sure about the LR, CDG/ORY isn't that much closer to the US than FRA, and LH said it lacks range, especially as AF usually has denser configurations. Possibly some 789 top-up to keep Boeing calm.


One could do a W20Y90 version to fit in the BCS1 under HOP! for longer thinner trips (Delta's A220-100 has 109 seats). The Embraer 190s are already a W28Y72 version. The A220-300 would be the A319 replacement (what's the longest current Air France A319 route?).

As for P&W engines on the A220/BCS1/3, they haven't been a problem here as they have been on the A320neo family.

AF/KLM really doesn’t need the range of the A221. IMHO the E2 is a better replacement for Hop!/Cityhopper regional needs, and the A223 for A319/73G replacement needs. A318s replaced by larger A223 or regional E2 on a route by route basis.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:55 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Polot wrote:
76er wrote:

Pratt engines. In other words, forget it. Unfortunately, I might add. :banghead:

As oppose to its direct competitor the A220...only available with Pratt engines?

If AF/KL want something smaller than a A320/738 (I don’t see them going for the A319neo or 7MG) they are going to have to accept Pratts.

Indeed. Their regional fleet (Cityhopper) is vital for their operations, enabling to connect AMS with all kinds of small of smaller airports in the UK, Scandinavia and Eastern Europe.

If the A220 or E2 is ruled out, KL could turn to the MRJ, which has.... ooops, also Pratts :rotfl:

I really don't think KL has a problem with Pratts. I do think the A220 is too large for Cityhopper though. As for that E2 demo flight, it was somewhat overdue. It was to happen earlier but I believe there was a little issue with scheduling.

I'm very curious if AF/KL will order Pratt's. If they avoid Pratt's, only last generation frames are available.

As a Pratt fan, there just doesn't seem to be another choice unless the group upgauge. Personally, due to lack of slots at AMS, all flights should begin upgauging, with non-viable frequencies dropped.

As to which smaller plane, that is an interesting decision. More A220 or a lifeline for the E2? All of these orders are heavily contested, so AF/KL cannot loose.

Lightsaber
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zkojq
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:12 pm

Polot wrote:
The difference is all the LH group and IAG airlines independently settled on the same narrow body type before they were part of a conglomerate. LH/IAG didn’t transform a 737NG operator into a A320 one.


I see where you're coming from but SN Brussels was a 737 operator, LH Group bought them second hand A319/A320s. Austrian had a large 737 fleet. LH Group had those replaced with additional A320s.

Polot wrote:
Turning KLM/Transavia into a A320 operator (or AF into a 737 one, after all I think the AF/KLM 737 fleet is larger than the A320 one but I could be wrong) is a huge expense with questionable benefit. Mechanics/crews need to be retrained, possibly new ground equipment needs to be bought (if moving from 737 to containerized A320), etc. The KL/HV 737 fleet and AF A320 fleet are both large enough to support both types, and the economics of the 737 and A320 are close enough that there is not a huge savings operating one over the other.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but you could say the same for any large airline switching over. The transition costs didn't stop Air Canada (~90 narrowbodies) from switching to a 737MAX fleet from an A320 one - though we later discovered that plenty of A321s will be staying for the long term.
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Polot
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:28 pm

zkojq wrote:
Polot wrote:
The difference is all the LH group and IAG airlines independently settled on the same narrow body type before they were part of a conglomerate. LH/IAG didn’t transform a 737NG operator into a A320 one.


I see where you're coming from but SN Brussels was a 737 operator, LH Group bought them second hand A319/A320s. Austrian had a large 737 fleet. LH Group had those replaced with additional A320s.

SN Brussels was a A320 family operator (A319 to be exact), they never flew 737s. They got 737 Classics from Virgin Express when the two merged (and renamed themselves Brussels Airlines). This was all before LH’s involvement in the airline.

Austrian has never had a large 737 fleet. They have been a longtime A320 family operator, since the mid-90s, and before then were a DC-9/MD-80 operator. They only got 737s as a result of their purchase of Lauda Air and needing their capacity for the Austrian brand, but they didn’t stick around long and were never intended to.

In both cases the airlines only operated 737s because of mergers, but still had a A320 fleet to build upon. This is different than KLM which currently have zero A320s and have never operated the type and where the management actively selected the 737.
 
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OA940
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:55 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
Outside of the parent company, there is no part of the A220 that’s native to Europe or France. Not the PW (USA) engines. Not the assembly. There is no secondary economic value or jobs. Given this, it doesn’t have a home field advantage that many are assuming. Embraer sits nearly equal with the only major difference being the E2-195 is smaller than the A223.

On the otherhand, a neo order powered by CFM gets a lot of home-country advantage, especially related to jobs and secondary economic return which is the rage for politicians these days.

The narrow body market is remarkably equal on overall performance and less subject to pure fundamental frame size matching. (WB market is more influenced on performance factors).

As such, I’ll be surprised if this is anything but a typical sized neo order.


...Aside for the fact it's literally the perfect replacement for their combined fleet of over 50 A318/A319 aircraft and that Airbus would cut them a hell of a deal for a combined order with the A320neo/A321neo and maybe even the A350 for the 772 replacement, even though I'd say that's gonna come at a later date.

My money is definitely on 20-25 A221s and 30-40 A223s for a direct replacement of the A318-A319 fleet and a little bit of expansion, plus around 20 A320neos and 10 A321neos to replace some of the older ceos.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
gsg013
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:13 pm

Any news when these A380's will be refurb'd? cannot wait.
 
76er
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Re: Air France will place an order at Le Bourget - Anne Rigail, CEO

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:13 pm

A388 wrote:
HV is already rumored to go for the MAX


Not just rumored, but confirmed by HV boss Matthijs van den Brink in june 2018:

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... ng-737-max

Article in Dutch, sorry..

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