Thibault973
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DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:10 pm

So it's official, Norwegian is dropping FDF and PTP where they operated seasonal winter bases since 2015. Both bases will close at the end of this winter season in late March.

This season, DY flew from PTP and FDF to JFK (6 weekly each), FLL (4w from FDF and 3 from PTP), CAY (4w each) and YUL (3w each). They previousely also flew from there to BOS, PVD and BWI.

Very sad not only for the custumers but also the tourism industry in the 2 islands. Flights where all going out pretty full (except for the CAY flight which were averaging aound 75% LF) but at awfully low prices.

link only in french for now : https://la1ere.francetvinfo.fr/guadelou ... 79327.html
 
drdisque
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:30 pm

The first season I was looking at going on vacation in FDF, but the cost and relative lack of accommodations put me off. Also, since I don't live in one of the cities they served I was somewhat worried about doing a multi-ticket connection to a less-than-daily flight during the winter.
 
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enilria
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:50 pm

Frankly these routes were so crazy I assumed they were gone long ago. The concept was interesting but those are markets are just too deep into the fringe.
 
Thibault973
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:20 pm

enilria wrote:
Frankly these routes were so crazy I assumed they were gone long ago. The concept was interesting but those are markets are just too deep into the fringe.


YUL-PTP/FDF is already served by both AC and TS. Also, AA serves both FDF (weekly 319 in low season, daily E75 high season) and PTP from MIA + AF will be launching a 2 weekly non stop PTP-MIA flight this summer (current flight operates 5 weekly with and intermediate stop in PAP). So there must be a market, albeit rather small.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:42 pm

They had plenty of competition on these routes, depressing yields, and at least in the NYC market, zero advertising. This was either a way to support or maintain DY's convoluted legal entity structure and deploy assets that were being less used. Surprised these routes lasted as long as they did and another obvious sign of how much difficulty Norwegian faces. I can see the Argentina entity fold soon too. That one is just a head scratcher.
 
Brickell305
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:46 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Frankly these routes were so crazy I assumed they were gone long ago. The concept was interesting but those are markets are just too deep into the fringe.


YUL-PTP/FDF is already served by both AC and TS. Also, AA serves both FDF (weekly 319 in low season, daily E75 high season) and PTP from MIA + AF will be launching a 2 weekly non stop PTP-MIA flight this summer (current flight operates 5 weekly with and intermediate stop in PAP). So there must be a market, albeit rather small.


Also, I've flown FLL-FDF before and loads were decent in both directions (yes I know, loads don't equal profit). So there definitely is a market to the French Caribbean. It's small but it's one that definitely exists.
 
stylo777
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:56 pm

Did they have local crews operating these flights or "Europeans" on short to mid-term assignments?
 
globalflyer
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:56 pm

Off topic in terms of DY, but for the two cities... is AF still flying the A320 from ATL to these two airports? Maybe it was just seasonal?
Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:14 pm

First of all, probably fewer than half of all Americans have a passport. The majority of Americans can only venture as far as Hawaii, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. Those that do have the ability to travel internationally tend to stick to what they know best - Bahamas, Belize, Cabo, Cancún, Cayman Islands, Costa Rica, Cozumel, Jamaica, Punta Cana, St. Martin, etc. I would imagine the language barrier is relatively challenging in Guadeloupe and Martinique. These certainly aren't destinations on the radar for many American travelers.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
YYZLGA
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:19 pm

Terrible news. I'm guessing fares are going to skyrocket again on those routes. I've made the trip a number of times and DY was fantastic. They really should have expanded more in the Canadian market, where more people speak French and more people have passports. YYZ would have been a much better choice than BOS or BWI.
 
ucdtim17
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:20 pm

Still no word on long haul cuts?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:22 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
First of all, probably fewer than half of all Americans have a passport. The majority of Americans can only venture as far as Hawaii, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. Those that do have the ability to travel internationally tend to stick to what they know best - Bahamas, Belize, Cabo, Cancún, Cayman Islands, Costa Rica, Cozumel, Jamaica, Punta Cana, St. Martin, etc. I would imagine the language barrier is relatively challenging in Guadeloupe and Martinique. These certainly aren't destinations on the radar for many American travelers.


True, but as a European airline Norwegian didn't have many options to fly from the Caribbean to the USA. Those are about the only places in the area they could use as bases. From all those other places they don't have the right to fly to the USA.

Besides, I can imagine they're closing the bases for the summer because they need the planes back in Europe. In short haul Norwegian is still somewhat profitable.
 
RL757PVD
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:32 pm

Part of the problem was the days they were flying it. then they did it from PVD the flights were on random weekdays and not Sat/Sun like they needed to be, 90% of people don't start their Caribbean vacation on a weekday.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
Brickell305
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:43 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
First of all, probably fewer than half of all Americans have a passport. The majority of Americans can only venture as far as Hawaii, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. Those that do have the ability to travel internationally tend to stick to what they know best - Bahamas, Belize, Cabo, Cancún, Cayman Islands, Costa Rica, Cozumel, Jamaica, Punta Cana, St. Martin, etc. I would imagine the language barrier is relatively challenging in Guadeloupe and Martinique. These certainly aren't destinations on the radar for many American travelers.


While the percentage of Americans as a whole with a passport may be under 50%, the share of people with passports in the places that DY flew to is higher. Coastal areas like So. Fla and New York tend to have well above average passport ownership. As such, I doubt that was the issue.

YYZLGA wrote:
Terrible news. I'm guessing fares are going to skyrocket again on those routes. I've made the trip a number of times and DY was fantastic. They really should have expanded more in the Canadian market, where more people speak French and more people have passports. YYZ would have been a much better choice than BOS or BWI.


Again, in the places that DY flew to, passport ownership isn't an issue. And as a whole, while the percentage of Canadians with a passport might be higher than the percentage of Americans with one, the absolute number of Americans with a passport is significantly higher than the total population of Canada.
 
A388
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:53 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Besides, I can imagine they're closing the bases for the summer because they need the planes back in Europe. In short haul Norwegian is still somewhat profitable.


Is Norwegian permanently closing these PTP/FDF bases or just for the low season (temporarily)?

A388
 
Brickell305
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:56 pm

A388 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Besides, I can imagine they're closing the bases for the summer because they need the planes back in Europe. In short haul Norwegian is still somewhat profitable.


Is Norwegian permanently closing these PTP/FDF bases or just for the low season (temporarily)?

A388

It's a permanent cut.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:56 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
Terrible news. I'm guessing fares are going to skyrocket again on those routes. I've made the trip a number of times and DY was fantastic. They really should have expanded more in the Canadian market, where more people speak French and more people have passports. YYZ would have been a much better choice than BOS or BWI.


Again, in the places that DY flew to, passport ownership isn't an issue. And as a whole, while the percentage of Canadians with a passport might be higher than the percentage of Americans with one, the absolute number of Americans with a passport is significantly higher than the total population of Canada.


Okay, but we're not talking about flying from Texas or Iowa here. However you slice it, the population of Toronto is bigger than that of Boston, and the proportion of Toronto's larger population that speaks French (and likely that has a passport) is higher than Boston.
 
Thibault973
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:06 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
Terrible news. I'm guessing fares are going to skyrocket again on those routes. I've made the trip a number of times and DY was fantastic. They really should have expanded more in the Canadian market, where more people speak French and more people have passports. YYZ would have been a much better choice than BOS or BWI.


If I remembre correctly there was a YYZ-PTP Flight at one point, for like a season. Can’t remember if it was with TS or WS tho
 
Brickell305
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:08 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
Terrible news. I'm guessing fares are going to skyrocket again on those routes. I've made the trip a number of times and DY was fantastic. They really should have expanded more in the Canadian market, where more people speak French and more people have passports. YYZ would have been a much better choice than BOS or BWI.


Again, in the places that DY flew to, passport ownership isn't an issue. And as a whole, while the percentage of Canadians with a passport might be higher than the percentage of Americans with one, the absolute number of Americans with a passport is significantly higher than the total population of Canada.


Okay, but we're not talking about flying from Texas or Iowa here. However you slice it, the population of Toronto is bigger than that of Boston, and the proportion of Toronto's larger population that speaks French (and likely that has a passport) is higher than Boston.


My point exactly. We're not talking about flying to Iowa or Texas. We're talking about flying to major metropolitan East Coast cities. Boston, New York and Miami are the prototypical cities in the US with above average passport ownership. And yes, Boston may be smaller population wise than Toronto but both Miami and NYC (especially NYC) are larger metropolitan areas. All three US cities also have higher GDP than Toronto (NYC's is bigger than the whole of Canada). And all three are highly diverse and have their fair share of French speakers as a result.
 
Thibault973
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:09 pm

globalflyer wrote:
Off topic in terms of DY, but for the two cities... is AF still flying the A320 from ATL to these two airports? Maybe it was just seasonal?


No words yet. They are launching 2 weekly non stop flight to MIA this season from PTP so it seems unlikely. Previous to the ATL flights there were flights to MCO.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Brickell305 wrote:

My point exactly. We're not talking about flying to Iowa or Texas. We're talking about flying to major metropolitan East Coast cities. Boston, New York and Miami are the prototypical cities in the US with above average passport ownership. And yes, Boston may be smaller population wise than Toronto but both Miami and NYC (especially NYC) are larger metropolitan areas. All three US cities also have higher GDP than Toronto (NYC's is bigger than the whole of Canada). And all three are highly diverse and have their fair share of French speakers as a result.


I never questioned NYC as a destination. Miami's not larger than Toronto no matter how you define it, and obviously it has vastly less demand for sun vacation flights. The Greater Golden Horseshoe, which is about the catchment area of YYZ, is 9.2 million people, and that's most closely comparable to the giant multi-state metros in the U.S. definitions (like the ones you're using for New York). Even the narrowly defined Greater Toronto Area is 6.5 million, and that excludes many areas that fly out of YYZ. FLL is mainly for Antillian people going on shopping trips. And while there are certainly French speakers in every American city, every high school graduate in Toronto is required to take six years of French. They may not speak it well--most don't--but it's an entirely different situation from any place in the U.S.
 
asuflyer
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:10 am

Realistically the only North American markets that can be served are MIA/FLL, JFK and YUL. FL is already covered by AA at MIA, as well as connection opportunities. AA began FDF and PTP to MIA with 738's and then subsequently reduced them to E175s. However with the downgauge in aircraft they still manage to command high fares on the routes.

Additionally the hotel offerings and destination marketing in Martinique and Guadeloupe target French and other European visitors not necessarily Americans and Canadians. They are an entirely different option compared to other islands those travelers typically go to like AUA,PUJ, BGI, STT, SJU etc which all offer a diverse hotel mix, large beach resorts, smaller and all inclusive. Hotels in Martinique and Guadeloupe are typically smaller boutique hotel offerings.

The latest news is that Air Caraibes has mentioned that it would like to serve the US and Canada at some point. However the A330 and A350s are too much of an aircraft for the most popular routes. At first it plans to offer charter flights. https://www.rci.fm/infos/economie/air-c ... ue-du-nord (Source in French).
 
Brickell305
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:42 am

YYZLGA wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:

My point exactly. We're not talking about flying to Iowa or Texas. We're talking about flying to major metropolitan East Coast cities. Boston, New York and Miami are the prototypical cities in the US with above average passport ownership. And yes, Boston may be smaller population wise than Toronto but both Miami and NYC (especially NYC) are larger metropolitan areas. All three US cities also have higher GDP than Toronto (NYC's is bigger than the whole of Canada). And all three are highly diverse and have their fair share of French speakers as a result.


I never questioned NYC as a destination. Miami's not larger than Toronto no matter how you define it, and obviously it has vastly less demand for sun vacation flights. The Greater Golden Horseshoe, which is about the catchment area of YYZ, is 9.2 million people, and that's most closely comparable to the giant multi-state metros in the U.S. definitions (like the ones you're using for New York). Even the narrowly defined Greater Toronto Area is 6.5 million, and that excludes many areas that fly out of YYZ. FLL is mainly for Antillian people going on shopping trips. And while there are certainly French speakers in every American city, every high school graduate in Toronto is required to take six years of French. They may not speak it well--most don't--but it's an entirely different situation from any place in the U.S.

Metro Miami has both a larger population and bigger GDP than Greater Toronto. Furthermore, Miami is one of the top source markets for flights to the Caribbean in the US. There is very high demand from Miami to the Caribbean and no, it's not all VFR. And with regards to demand to the French Antilles, the fact that Miami maintains flights to the islands on multiple airlines while Toronto doesn't should speak for itself.
 
mcdu
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:08 am

Really glad to see the Norwegian experiment is ending the end of the line. More cuts followed by more cuts. Norwegian has again proven you can’t give your product away and expect to survive.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:38 am

Brickell305 wrote:
Metro Miami has both a larger population and bigger GDP than Greater Toronto. Furthermore, Miami is one of the top source markets for flights to the Caribbean in the US. There is very high demand from Miami to the Caribbean and no, it's not all VFR. And with regards to demand to the French Antilles, the fact that Miami maintains flights to the islands on multiple airlines while Toronto doesn't should speak for itself.


Sorry, can you show me a figure in which Metro Miami has a larger population? The Census shows the Miami MSA having a population of 6.1 million and that's going all the way to West Palm Beach. Are you including Orlando or something? In terms of GDP, the Toronto area is around US$360 billion, while Miami metro is $344 billion.

All of that is beside the point, though. I never said that the Miami to FDF/PTP flights are all VFR. Quite the opposite. I said that the Miami area is a popular destination for Antillean travellers, for shopping in particular, so a lot of that traffic is Antilles-originating unlike the other flights.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:48 am

This could be an intriguing opportunity for Air France as they have a base at PTP for their two Caribbean A320s. If Air France were to acquire the A220-300, that could be the perfect opportunity to expand their PTP-based fleet as that would be better suited for island-hopping and perhaps replace D8 to JFK in the winter season (Air France's Caribbean A320s are Y165).
 
YYZLGA
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:24 am

YYZLGA wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
Metro Miami has both a larger population and bigger GDP than Greater Toronto. Furthermore, Miami is one of the top source markets for flights to the Caribbean in the US. There is very high demand from Miami to the Caribbean and no, it's not all VFR. And with regards to demand to the French Antilles, the fact that Miami maintains flights to the islands on multiple airlines while Toronto doesn't should speak for itself.


Sorry, can you show me a figure in which Metro Miami has a larger population? The Census shows the Miami MSA having a population of 6.1 million and that's going all the way to West Palm Beach. Are you including Orlando or something? In terms of GDP, the Toronto area is around US$360 billion, while Miami metro is $344 billion.

All of that is beside the point, though. I never said that the Miami to FDF/PTP flights are all VFR. Quite the opposite. Miami's a major centre and an important city. It's probably the strongest of all the American markets from FDF/PTP. I said that the Miami area is a popular destination for Antillean travellers, for shopping in particular, so a lot of that traffic is Antilles-originating unlike the other flights.
 
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spinkid
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:27 am

I'm glad I took the chance I did to fly them the first season they offered service. I flew JFK-FDF for juts over $200 roundtrip on a holiday weekend. Flights to Florida were pricing at over $400.

We had a great time and thought about going back again this year. Its still bookable for another 2 couple of weeks if any of you want to catch them while you can.

These were European crew based there seasonally. I forget if it was full season or if they rotated through every so often. Its a nice chance to live in the Caribbean instead of Europe in winter.

One thing I didn't understand was the lack of connections to CAY from North America. Its not a huge market, but if they were trying to scratch out a living it would have been nice.
 
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spinkid
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:33 am

Random Fact: You can book one way flights from FDF and PTP to Europe with stops in the U.S.

Feb. 19th you can fly FDF-AMS for $443 one way.
 
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enilria
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Re: DY drops FDF/PTP bases

Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:56 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Frankly these routes were so crazy I assumed they were gone long ago. The concept was interesting but those are markets are just too deep into the fringe.


YUL-PTP/FDF is already served by both AC and TS. Also, AA serves both FDF (weekly 319 in low season, daily E75 high season) and PTP from MIA + AF will be launching a 2 weekly non stop PTP-MIA flight this summer (current flight operates 5 weekly with and intermediate stop in PAP). So there must be a market, albeit rather small.

You are comparing to a French to French market. Not very similar to involving the USA market. There are a lot of people in Quebec who don't speak English. Of course, they will go to somewhere less developed than the standards like PUJ/CUN/NAS/SJU if they can comfortably speak their native tongue. Not sure that's relevant from the USA.

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