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SR380
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Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:21 am

According to ch.aviation:
"Iraqi Airways (IA, Baghdad) is planning to renew its widebody fleet and is considering either B777s or A330neo for this purpose, Assistant Director General (Commercial Affairs) Sana Al-Khayyat said.

Al-Khayyat told Arabian Aerospace in late 2018 that the carrier was planning to retire all its Boeing widebodies in 2019, subject to government approval of the plan.

According to the ch-aviation fleets module, the Iraqi carrier's widebody fleet currently includes two B747-400s, one B777-200LR, and one A330-200. The airline recently decided that it will retire its two B767-300(ER)s due to the excessive cost it would take to return the units to active service.

The Iraqi carrier is looking at expanding its network to the United States and Bangladesh.

Iraqi Airways is also hoping to be removed from the EU blacklist and secure EASA Third Country Operator (TCO) authorisation within the first half of 2019, which would allow it to operate to the European Union. Currently, all Iraqi Airways flights to Europe are operated under its code and with its aircraft but using the Air Operator's Certificate (AOC) of AtlasGlobal (KK, Istanbul New)."

What about the 787 that were ordered from the Iraqi government?

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... wal-us-ops
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:31 am

Strange aircraft to choose from, or it must be that they want fast delivery and want new aircraft. The B777 and A330NEO are in different classes.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:56 am

Will IA be part of the ME5 in the future?
 
hkcanadaexpat
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:02 am

i guess the order for 10x 788 is dead then...
 
Bricktop
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:02 am

Dutchy wrote:
Strange aircraft to choose from, or it must be that they want fast delivery and want new aircraft. The B777 and A330NEO are in different classes.

Yeah, wierd. They must mean the B77W but are BCA even seriously offering it now? 787s or neos would make more sense and they probably could get the latter cheaper and quicker.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:06 am

SR380 wrote:
The Iraqi carrier is looking at expanding its network to the United States and Bangladesh.

Iraqi Airways is also hoping to be removed from the EU blacklist

That part stood out the most.

Though I can't imagine why they'd want to tie up the resources required to send an aircraft all the way TATL, when if removed from EU blacklist, they could presumably codeshare with an EU carrier at an EU gateway.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Blerg
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:12 am

Could A321neo make it from Baghdad to Bangladesh?
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:19 am

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
i guess the order for 10x 788 is dead then...


Swapped for more 737-800s I think....
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:24 am

LAX772LR wrote:
SR380 wrote:
The Iraqi carrier is looking at expanding its network to the United States and Bangladesh.

Iraqi Airways is also hoping to be removed from the EU blacklist

That part stood out the most.

Though I can't imagine why they'd want to tie up the resources required to send an aircraft all the way TATL, when if removed from EU blacklist, they could presumably codeshare with an EU carrier at an EU gateway.



would make more sense, indeed. But getting off the blacklist must be the priority.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
juliuswong
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:30 am

Their two B767-300ER YI-AQW and YI-AQM have been out of action for long time. Could be considered as retired. Both parked at BGW.

KUL nowadays see their A332 frequently.

They really need to decide if they want to simplify their fleet, they seems to be operating 5 A320 family vs. 14 B737NG now with 15 more to be delivered. Also 6 CRJ 900 with mix of widebody that leave too much to be desired for. They also have 10 787 on order. I am not sure if IA needs B77W, A330neo should be sufficient in most international routes. B77W line is coming to an end, they need to place an order fast before Boeing switch to B77X production. Unless they are looking for used frames.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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SR380
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:53 am

juliuswong wrote:
Their two B767-300ER YI-AQW and YI-AQM have been out of action for long time. Could be considered as retired. Both parked at BGW.

KUL nowadays see their A332 frequently.

They really need to decide if they want to simplify their fleet, they seems to be operating 5 A320 family vs. 14 B737NG now with 15 more to be delivered. Also 6 CRJ 900 with mix of widebody that leave too much to be desired for. They also have 10 787 on order. I am not sure if IA needs B77W, A330neo should be sufficient in most international routes. B77W line is coming to an end, they need to place an order fast before Boeing switch to B77X production. Unless they are looking for used frames.


They also have 5 A220 on orders. I don't get the logic behind those orders. I imagine a fleet of CRJ, 737 and A330neo or B787 would be enough.
 
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LTU932
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:55 am

EDIT: Nevermind. I thought I read Iran, not Iraq.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
B1168
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:01 pm

Their 2 long haul aircrafts, 1*332 and 1*77L, flies KUL and CAN for 1 weekly... that isn’t a great aircraft utilization rate. They can literally condense 7 weekly of KUL or CAN into the 332 and fly 77L to “US or Bangladesh” as they wishes.
 
klm617
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:39 pm

SR380 wrote:
According to ch.aviation:
"Iraqi Airways (IA, Baghdad) is planning to renew its widebody fleet and is considering either B777s or A330neo for this purpose, Assistant Director General (Commercial Affairs) Sana Al-Khayyat said.

Al-Khayyat told Arabian Aerospace in late 2018 that the carrier was planning to retire all its Boeing widebodies in 2019, subject to government approval of the plan.

According to the ch-aviation fleets module, the Iraqi carrier's widebody fleet currently includes two B747-400s, one B777-200LR, and one A330-200. The airline recently decided that it will retire its two B767-300(ER)s due to the excessive cost it would take to return the units to active service.

The Iraqi carrier is looking at expanding its network to the United States and Bangladesh.

Iraqi Airways is also hoping to be removed from the EU blacklist and secure EASA Third Country Operator (TCO) authorisation within the first half of 2019, which would allow it to operate to the European Union. Currently, all Iraqi Airways flights to Europe are operated under its code and with its aircraft but using the Air Operator's Certificate (AOC) of AtlasGlobal (KK, Istanbul New)."

What about the 787 that were ordered from the Iraqi government?

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... wal-us-ops


They first have to be allowed to fly to the USA but the first two routes would probably be JFK and DTW
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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adamblang
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Strange aircraft to choose from, or it must be that they want fast delivery and want new aircraft. The B777 and A330NEO are in different classes.

I wonder if it's due to the fact that they already operate variants of those types so it'll be less effort to add them to the fleet.
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 773 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
Delta28L
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:36 pm

Isn’t there a lot of used 777s in the market with airlines dumping them? Maybe Iraqi can pick some of those up and save money.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:04 pm

I would advise against using ch-aviation as a source. They only publish poor resume's of other articles without giving any credit to the original publication,

For this article it's a bad copy paste of the following piece by Arabian Aerospace.

https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/iraqi ... -game.html

It gives the actual context in which this wide-body order is considered and which models are being considered.

'The airline previously indicated that it would prefer to acquire more 777s, but Al Khayyat said that the company was now looking towards the Airbus A330neo."


The A220 order is also mentioned, they are not certain what role it will play if they will take delivery of them. This also gives a possible reason why the Iraqi Government 787 order isn't mentioned. There seems to be a bit of a conflict between their own orders and the government orders, although with the 737s from the government order have given them certainty and strong technical support from Boeing. And as they are waiting for what the government wants to do with the airline I would say that all options are still open, including the 787s from the existing order.
 
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Melbourne
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:30 pm

There is a long way before Iraqi Airways would be capable and allowed to operate services to the U.S. I mean Lebanese carrier MEA can not operate services due to security reasons can you picture an Iraqi carrier being allowed?
 
B1168
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:03 am

Delta28L wrote:
Isn’t there a lot of used 777s in the market with airlines dumping them? Maybe Iraqi can pick some of those up and save money.


777s.... it is probably too large for a carrier who only operate 2 weekly long haul, even A339 may be excessive. If their 788 orders go to the trash bin (which isn’t surprising to me, for Boeing doesn’t show Iraqi Airways as a customer of 787), I say A321XLR be the best fit for them. If well equipped, it can reach the entire Asia and JFK/EWR.
 
deltalaw
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:23 am

B1168 wrote:
Delta28L wrote:
Isn’t there a lot of used 777s in the market with airlines dumping them? Maybe Iraqi can pick some of those up and save money.


777s.... it is probably too large for a carrier who only operate 2 weekly long haul, even A339 may be excessive. If their 788 orders go to the trash bin (which isn’t surprising to me, for Boeing doesn’t show Iraqi Airways as a customer of 787), I say A321XLR be the best fit for them. If well equipped, it can reach the entire Asia and JFK/EWR.


No way can an A-321 go from Baghdad to New York nonstop.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:42 am

They need to build a good feed from the domestic and region for their international flight, even before going to US. I wonder how many passengers are eager to go to Iraq -US vv. They maybe a handful but that the number might not justified B77W usage. Even B772/ER could be overkilled, moreover B772/ER mission can now be done by A330neo at much cheaper. Is IA's five A310 order dealt with already?
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
behramjee
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:10 am

Blerg wrote:
Could A321neo make it from Baghdad to Bangladesh?


Easily as the block time is 6:15 but in winter fog season, it should be 6:45, so to be safe it would need to be an A321NEO with 1ACT.

juliuswong wrote:
They need to build a good feed from the domestic and region for their international flight, even before going to US. I wonder how many passengers are eager to go to Iraq -US vv. They maybe a handful but that the number might not justified B77W usage. Even B772/ER could be overkilled, moreover B772/ER mission can now be done by A330neo at much cheaper. Is IA's five A310 order dealt with already?


For the next 5 years at least, Iraqi Airways will be still 90% on P2P traffic as it will struggle to attract transit traffic from EU/US via BGW to Asia.

I know the Iraqi market very well and it is divided into 3 segments :

1. NJF - Shia religious travel mainly from BAH DMM DXB KWI PAK IND DOH

2. EBL - VFR Kurdish passengers bound to Western Europe / UK

3. BGW - VFR + high yielding business + corporate traffic + a bit of religious traffic which is bound to Karbala (a city in between NJF and BGW)

Now take into account, the P2P market demand isnt high volume on a year round basis (not even NJF). For Western Europe, the demand is mainly summer seasonal during the school holidays. Also EBL bound pax will not transit via BGW and nor would BGW bound pax fly via EBL to anywhere.

To understand Iraq demand for medium/long haul routes, here are the top 10 in 2018 (round trip):

BGW/LON - 44,000 (LHR + LGW + STN)
NJF/BOM - 38,000
BGW/ARN - 36,000
EBL/ARN - 32,000
BGW/CPH - 30,000
BGW/KUL - 29,000
EBL/LON - 28,000 (LHR + LGW)
EBL/DUS - 27,000
BGW/CAN - 24,000
BGW/DAC tied with BGW/DEL - 21,000

As far as USA flights are concerned, they wont be allowed for many years to operate nonstop from BGW/EBL into JFK/IAD (due to security issues) so despite demand levels being low, if the Iraqi Govt really wants to operate this service 3 times per week, it has to be flown via EU with 5th freedom traffic rights. For this, I would suggest IA set up a small scissors hub in ARN, where by a narrow body aircraft operates EBL-ARN which would connect with BGW-IAD via ARN in both directions.

For the Far East, China is making big investments in Iraq and the demand is largely bound to CAN and PEK. For China, they should look into operating in the following manner using a wide body aircraft (with 5th freedom traffic rights):

BGW-DAC-PEK 3wk
BGW-KHI-CAN 3wk (fyi BGW-KHI is 42,000 pax and no body flies nonstop between BGW-KHI + KHI-CAN )

Kindly note that as the situation improves in Iraq, Bangladesh will be exporting labor very rapidly as it has signed a deal for this few years ago.

Lastly with regards to its long term fleet for the 2020-30 decade, I am a big supporter of fleet standardization and keeping that in mind along with the fact that IA's already has a fleet of 14 B738s with trained pilots + engineers, its narrow body fleet needs to get rid of the CR9s , A220s and A320s. Therefore, the NB fleet should consist of used B737-700s (7 units) + B737-800s (18 units) thus revolving around one aircraft type only.

For the wide body operation, an aircraft the size of an A330-200/800Neo or B787-8 only is needed and nothing bigger. This is where Airbus will play its cards right by heavily discounting the A338Neo against Boeing's WB aircraft as it is desperate to gain orders for this aircraft type. At the very most, IA only needs 5 wide body aircraft.

So for fleet renewal, 25 NB aircraft revolving around the B737NG family and for WB 5 used aircraft revolving around the A330 family.
 
B1168
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:38 am

deltalaw wrote:
B1168 wrote:
Delta28L wrote:
Isn’t there a lot of used 777s in the market with airlines dumping them? Maybe Iraqi can pick some of those up and save money.


777s.... it is probably too large for a carrier who only operate 2 weekly long haul, even A339 may be excessive. If their 788 orders go to the trash bin (which isn’t surprising to me, for Boeing doesn’t show Iraqi Airways as a customer of 787), I say A321XLR be the best fit for them. If well equipped, it can reach the entire Asia and JFK/EWR.


No way can an A-321 go from Baghdad to New York nonstop.


The distance of nearly 6000 miles is indeed too tough for A321XLR to reach. But they currently already have 1 A332 and 1 B77L... I mean, CAN and KUL is at tops 9 hours one way, and their demand is not exactly high, making A321LR/XLR a nice fit for them, and so will Bangladesh and Europe.
 
B1168
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:42 am

behramjee wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Could A321neo make it from Baghdad to Bangladesh?


Easily as the block time is 6:15 but in winter fog season, it should be 6:45, so to be safe it would need to be an A321NEO with 1ACT.

juliuswong wrote:
They need to build a good feed from the domestic and region for their international flight, even before going to US. I wonder how many passengers are eager to go to Iraq -US vv. They maybe a handful but that the number might not justified B77W usage. Even B772/ER could be overkilled, moreover B772/ER mission can now be done by A330neo at much cheaper. Is IA's five A310 order dealt with already?


For the next 5 years at least, Iraqi Airways will be still 90% on P2P traffic as it will struggle to attract transit traffic from EU/US via BGW to Asia.

I know the Iraqi market very well and it is divided into 3 segments :

1. NJF - Shia religious travel mainly from BAH DMM DXB KWI PAK IND DOH

2. EBL - VFR Kurdish passengers bound to Western Europe / UK

3. BGW - VFR + high yielding business + corporate traffic + a bit of religious traffic which is bound to Karbala (a city in between NJF and BGW)

Now take into account, the P2P market demand isnt high volume on a year round basis (not even NJF). For Western Europe, the demand is mainly summer seasonal during the school holidays. Also EBL bound pax will not transit via BGW and nor would BGW bound pax fly via EBL to anywhere.

To understand Iraq demand for medium/long haul routes, here are the top 10 in 2018 (round trip):

BGW/LON - 44,000 (LHR + LGW + STN)
NJF/BOM - 38,000
BGW/ARN - 36,000
EBL/ARN - 32,000
BGW/CPH - 30,000
BGW/KUL - 29,000
EBL/LON - 28,000 (LHR + LGW)
EBL/DUS - 27,000
BGW/CAN - 24,000
BGW/DAC tied with BGW/DEL - 21,000

As far as USA flights are concerned, they wont be allowed for many years to operate nonstop from BGW/EBL into JFK/IAD (due to security issues) so despite demand levels being low, if the Iraqi Govt really wants to operate this service 3 times per week, it has to be flown via EU with 5th freedom traffic rights. For this, I would suggest IA set up a small scissors hub in ARN, where by a narrow body aircraft operates EBL-ARN which would connect with BGW-IAD via ARN in both directions.

For the Far East, China is making big investments in Iraq and the demand is largely bound to CAN and PEK. For China, they should look into operating in the following manner using a wide body aircraft (with 5th freedom traffic rights):

BGW-DAC-PEK 3wk
BGW-KHI-CAN 3wk (fyi BGW-KHI is 42,000 pax and no body flies nonstop between BGW-KHI + KHI-CAN )

Kindly note that as the situation improves in Iraq, Bangladesh will be exporting labor very rapidly as it has signed a deal for this few years ago.

Lastly with regards to its long term fleet for the 2020-30 decade, I am a big supporter of fleet standardization and keeping that in mind along with the fact that IA's already has a fleet of 14 B738s with trained pilots + engineers, its narrow body fleet needs to get rid of the CR9s , A220s and A320s. Therefore, the NB fleet should consist of used B737-700s (7 units) + B737-800s (18 units) thus revolving around one aircraft type only.

For the wide body operation, an aircraft the size of an A330-200/800Neo or B787-8 only is needed and nothing bigger. This is where Airbus will play its cards right by heavily discounting the A338Neo against Boeing's WB aircraft as it is desperate to gain orders for this aircraft type. At the very most, IA only needs 5 wide body aircraft.

So for fleet renewal, 25 NB aircraft revolving around the B737NG family and for WB 5 used aircraft revolving around the A330 family.


That is soooooooo detailed, thanks. The 2 5th freedom routes are so believable that I thought they came from Routesonline or something like that. Do agree they mostly is on OD, but I see no immediate need for widebody unless they want JFK nonstop. I mean, KHI-CAN or BGW-KUL won’t take over 8 hours one way for that matter.
 
behramjee
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:03 am

B1168 wrote:
deltalaw wrote:
B1168 wrote:

777s.... it is probably too large for a carrier who only operate 2 weekly long haul, even A339 may be excessive. If their 788 orders go to the trash bin (which isn’t surprising to me, for Boeing doesn’t show Iraqi Airways as a customer of 787), I say A321XLR be the best fit for them. If well equipped, it can reach the entire Asia and JFK/EWR.


No way can an A-321 go from Baghdad to New York nonstop.


The distance of nearly 6000 miles is indeed too tough for A321XLR to reach. But they currently already have 1 A332 and 1 B77L... I mean, CAN and KUL is at tops 9 hours one way, and their demand is not exactly high, making A321LR/XLR a nice fit for them, and so will Bangladesh and Europe.


CAN, KUL and LON need the WB aircraft for cargo and excess baggage requirements.

Please note that even though Airbus will tell you that A321Neo XLR can fly 8-8.5 hours nonstop, in reality it can but with 3ACTs + 0 cargo and baggage would have to be 20kg maximum per passenger. So this aircraft is useless for IA on the 3 above mentioned destinations.

Honestly speaking, if the Boeing NMA aircraft would have been delivered by 2022-23 then IA would be another airline ideally suited for its missions as it would seat 230 pax in a typical 2 class layout, have 6-8 tons in the belly and would be able to fly 9 hours nonstop maximum.

The market segment which has seen major growth to/from Iraq year over year has been:

BGW-JED from 21,000 to 116,000 pax round trip
BGW-MED from 17,000 to 74,000 pax round trip
 
w3gar
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:09 am

I predict flights to ORD, IAH, and LAX could be started beside JFK or DTW, considering the presence of Iraqi communities there.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:07 am

w3gar wrote:
I predict flights to ORD, IAH, and LAX could be started beside JFK or DTW, considering the presence of Iraqi communities there.

Eh, no.

JFK itself would be a stretch. Not a chance in hell they'd make DTW, ORD, or even LAX work, on ethnic travel alone.

Carriers with far greater resources and larger ethnic communities (e.g. EgyptAir, Ethiopian, Air India, etc) have tried and failed in that regard.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
klm617
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:32 am

LAX772LR wrote:
w3gar wrote:
I predict flights to ORD, IAH, and LAX could be started beside JFK or DTW, considering the presence of Iraqi communities there.

Eh, no.

JFK itself would be a stretch. Not a chance in hell they'd make DTW, ORD, or even LAX work, on ethnic travel alone.

Carriers with far greater resources and larger ethnic communities (e.g. EgyptAir, Ethiopian, Air India, etc) have tried and failed in that regard.



Interesting comment coming from someone who thinks MSY-CDG would work because of the connection to France. You mean like the flights between Montreal and Tunis and Algeria and DTW-AMM ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
OGLOBAL
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:14 am

can someone explain the reason for high demand from Iraq to India and Bangladesh ?
 
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Polot
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:24 am

klm617 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
w3gar wrote:
I predict flights to ORD, IAH, and LAX could be started beside JFK or DTW, considering the presence of Iraqi communities there.

Eh, no.

JFK itself would be a stretch. Not a chance in hell they'd make DTW, ORD, or even LAX work, on ethnic travel alone.

Carriers with far greater resources and larger ethnic communities (e.g. EgyptAir, Ethiopian, Air India, etc) have tried and failed in that regard.



Interesting comment coming from someone who thinks MSY-CDG would work because of the connection to France. You mean like the flights between Montreal and Tunis and Algeria and DTW-AMM ?

Not all ethnic traffic is equal. Is there a huge demand from those Iraqi communities for travel to Iraq? Don’t assume that just because someone is Iraqi that they are a guaranteed ticket. Is that demand large enough, with fares high enough, to sustain such routes?
 
klm617
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:29 pm

Polot wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Eh, no.

JFK itself would be a stretch. Not a chance in hell they'd make DTW, ORD, or even LAX work, on ethnic travel alone.

Carriers with far greater resources and larger ethnic communities (e.g. EgyptAir, Ethiopian, Air India, etc) have tried and failed in that regard.



Interesting comment coming from someone who thinks MSY-CDG would work because of the connection to France. You mean like the flights between Montreal and Tunis and Algeria and DTW-AMM ?

Not all ethnic traffic is equal. Is there a huge demand from those Iraqi communities for travel to Iraq? Don’t assume that just because someone is Iraqi that they are a guaranteed ticket. Is that demand large enough, with fares high enough, to sustain such routes?
'

That is very true and we really can't know that for certain unless somebody starts flying the route. But I assure you DTW-BGW is a front runner in any IA expansion in to the USA. I highly doubt that most of the traffic in and out of Iraq is business related at this time.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
behramjee
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:39 pm

OGLOBAL wrote:
can someone explain the reason for high demand from Iraq to India and Bangladesh ?


India is due to religious movement

Bangladesh is due to labour man power movement
 
rufusmi
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:39 pm

klm617 wrote:
Polot wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Interesting comment coming from someone who thinks MSY-CDG would work because of the connection to France. You mean like the flights between Montreal and Tunis and Algeria and DTW-AMM ?

Not all ethnic traffic is equal. Is there a huge demand from those Iraqi communities for travel to Iraq? Don’t assume that just because someone is Iraqi that they are a guaranteed ticket. Is that demand large enough, with fares high enough, to sustain such routes?
'

That is very true and we really can't know that for certain unless somebody starts flying the route. But I assure you DTW-BGW is a front runner in any IA expansion in to the USA. I highly doubt that most of the traffic in and out of Iraq is business related at this time.


A lot of western traffic to Iraq is business related. There’s lots of money in expensive defense systems and those all have to be supported by someone.
 
B1168
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:42 pm

behramjee wrote:
B1168 wrote:
deltalaw wrote:

No way can an A-321 go from Baghdad to New York nonstop.


The distance of nearly 6000 miles is indeed too tough for A321XLR to reach. But they currently already have 1 A332 and 1 B77L... I mean, CAN and KUL is at tops 9 hours one way, and their demand is not exactly high, making A321LR/XLR a nice fit for them, and so will Bangladesh and Europe.


CAN, KUL and LON need the WB aircraft for cargo and excess baggage requirements.

Please note that even though Airbus will tell you that A321Neo XLR can fly 8-8.5 hours nonstop, in reality it can but with 3ACTs + 0 cargo and baggage would have to be 20kg maximum per passenger. So this aircraft is useless for IA on the 3 above mentioned destinations.

Honestly speaking, if the Boeing NMA aircraft would have been delivered by 2022-23 then IA would be another airline ideally suited for its missions as it would seat 230 pax in a typical 2 class layout, have 6-8 tons in the belly and would be able to fly 9 hours nonstop maximum.

The market segment which has seen major growth to/from Iraq year over year has been:

BGW-JED from 21,000 to 116,000 pax round trip
BGW-MED from 17,000 to 74,000 pax round trip


Well, I admit, cargo is an entirely different story......
If cargo demand actually exists, I would say 788/332/NMA suited for these routings. Since they already have 332, will it be cheaper for them to buy second-handed 332 and get rid of the 77L to maintain a clean fleet, or will purchasing brand new NMA be better for them?
 
bennett123
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:19 pm

Depends if they can wait for NMA.

Their B747/B767 are getting a bit long in the tooth.
 
klm617
Posts: 4152
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:55 pm

rufusmi wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Not all ethnic traffic is equal. Is there a huge demand from those Iraqi communities for travel to Iraq? Don’t assume that just because someone is Iraqi that they are a guaranteed ticket. Is that demand large enough, with fares high enough, to sustain such routes?
'

That is very true and we really can't know that for certain unless somebody starts flying the route. But I assure you DTW-BGW is a front runner in any IA expansion in to the USA. I highly doubt that most of the traffic in and out of Iraq is business related at this time.


A lot of western traffic to Iraq is business related. There’s lots of money in expensive defense systems and those all have to be supported by someone.



And you really think those people are flying commercial into Iraq.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
Polot
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:00 pm

klm617 wrote:
rufusmi wrote:
klm617 wrote:
'

That is very true and we really can't know that for certain unless somebody starts flying the route. But I assure you DTW-BGW is a front runner in any IA expansion in to the USA. I highly doubt that most of the traffic in and out of Iraq is business related at this time.


A lot of western traffic to Iraq is business related. There’s lots of money in expensive defense systems and those all have to be supported by someone.



And you really think those people are flying commercial into Iraq.

Yes, in fact a lot of them are. Private contractors are not all flying in on military jets.
 
klm617
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:36 pm

Polot wrote:
klm617 wrote:
rufusmi wrote:

A lot of western traffic to Iraq is business related. There’s lots of money in expensive defense systems and those all have to be supported by someone.



And you really think those people are flying commercial into Iraq.

Yes, in fact a lot of them are. Private contractors are not all flying in on military jets.



I find that hard to believe that contractors would allow their employees to directly fly into such a dangerous place. I would think that KWI would be a better option and then by military transport into Iraq but I could be wrong.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
Polot
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Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:43 pm

klm617 wrote:
Polot wrote:
klm617 wrote:


And you really think those people are flying commercial into Iraq.

Yes, in fact a lot of them are. Private contractors are not all flying in on military jets.



I find that hard to believe that contractors would allow their employees to directly fly into such a dangerous place. I would think that KWI would be a better option and then by military transport into Iraq but I could be wrong.

That is why those private contractors often make a lot of $$$ doing what they do. They fly into and work in dangerous places, so they get paid a lot. The government or whoever is contracting them foots the bill.
 
winginit
Posts: 2422
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:33 pm

klm617 wrote:
Polot wrote:
klm617 wrote:


And you really think those people are flying commercial into Iraq.

Yes, in fact a lot of them are. Private contractors are not all flying in on military jets.



I find that hard to believe that contractors would allow their employees to directly fly into such a dangerous place. I would think that KWI would be a better option and then by military transport into Iraq but I could be wrong.


You shouldn't find it hard to believe at all. Even the US military at times fly commercial into BGW. On more than one occasion I've sat next to U.S. soldiers who are connecting to BGW via TK or QR.
 
B1168
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:34 am

bennett123 wrote:
Depends if they can wait for NMA.

Their B747/B767 are getting a bit long in the tooth.


I mean, they already have 2 widebody planes. That is well enough for the widebody part, unless of course they want US nonstop.
 
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Devilfish
Posts: 6312
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:34 am

B1168 wrote:
If cargo demand actually exists, I would say 788/332/NMA suited for these routings. Since they already have 332, will it be cheaper for them to buy second-handed 332 and get rid of the 77L to maintain a clean fleet

B1168 wrote:
I mean, they already have 2 widebody planes. That is well enough for the widebody part, unless of course they want US nonstop.

As mentioned, bringing their existing planes up to snuff would be expensive, given the remaining serviceable life. Considering the above, the A338 suggested upthread may be more suitable and cheaper to boot.....
behramjee wrote:
For the wide body operation, an aircraft the size of an A330-200/800Neo or B787-8 only is needed and nothing bigger. This is where Airbus will play its cards right by heavily discounting the A338Neo against Boeing's WB aircraft as it is desperate to gain orders for this aircraft type.


http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=BGW-EWR%2FORD&MS=wls&DU=nm


The big problem is whether IA could get the route authority :?:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
w3gar
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:24 am

Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:24 am

LAX772LR wrote:
w3gar wrote:
I predict flights to ORD, IAH, and LAX could be started beside JFK or DTW, considering the presence of Iraqi communities there.

Eh, no.

JFK itself would be a stretch. Not a chance in hell they'd make DTW, ORD, or even LAX work, on ethnic travel alone.

Carriers with far greater resources and larger ethnic communities (e.g. EgyptAir, Ethiopian, Air India, etc) have tried and failed in that regard.

Not always do they fail. Example, TA on SAL-LAX and SAL-IAD. Both the LA and DMV areas have a significant number of Salvadorans and both routes seem to be successful.
 
B1168
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:45 am

Devilfish wrote:
B1168 wrote:
If cargo demand actually exists, I would say 788/332/NMA suited for these routings. Since they already have 332, will it be cheaper for them to buy second-handed 332 and get rid of the 77L to maintain a clean fleet

B1168 wrote:
I mean, they already have 2 widebody planes. That is well enough for the widebody part, unless of course they want US nonstop.

As mentioned, bringing their existing planes up to snuff would be expensive, given the remaining serviceable life. Considering the above, the A338 suggested upthread may be more suitable and cheaper to boot.....
behramjee wrote:
For the wide body operation, an aircraft the size of an A330-200/800Neo or B787-8 only is needed and nothing bigger. This is where Airbus will play its cards right by heavily discounting the A338Neo against Boeing's WB aircraft as it is desperate to gain orders for this aircraft type.


http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=BGW-EWR%2FORD&MS=wls&DU=nm


The big problem is whether IA could get the route authority :?:


If we are forfeiting current widebodies, then 788s or 332/338s are obviously welcome. But hopefully we can establish the consensus that the majority of routes IA currently runs rely on narrowbody aircrafts.
Also... if IA indeed chose to stop in KHI for their current routing to CAN, I think A321LR should be able to pick up some (definitely not too much) cargo.
 
ewt340
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:04 am

They did order B787-8. Which is understandable.
A330neo. Understandable for Flights to China or UK.

B777? didn't think so.

They also order A220. So presumably for narrow-body jet, they either went with all A220 or mixed it in with A320neo.
So what would happen to their current B737-800 anyway?
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 11850
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:14 am

klm617 wrote:
Interesting comment coming from someone who thinks MSY-CDG would work because of the connection to France.

Oooooh, let's play a game:
You show me even ONE post where I'm saying anything about "connection to France" being the primary driver for such a route, and I never say a negative thing about (the sheer lunacy often contained in) your posts again.

But if you fail, you delete yourself.

Do it, do it, do it-- this'll be fun! :lol:


w3gar wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
JFK itself would be a stretch. Not a chance in hell they'd make DTW, ORD, or even LAX work, on ethnic travel alone.
Carriers with far greater resources and larger ethnic communities (e.g. EgyptAir, Ethiopian, Air India, etc) have tried and failed in that regard.

Not always do they fail. Example, TA on SAL-LAX and SAL-IAD. Both the LA and DMV areas have a significant number of Salvadorans and both routes seem to be successful.

You just compared a 16-17hr ultralonghaul scenario requiring C-market aircraft, with a 4-5hr shorthaul on a narrowbody.... and you don't think there's just a bittttttttt of a conceptual disparity in operating dynamics there?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3071
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:25 am

They should buy second hand aircraft but the appeal of all the little percentages each minister can take out of the large lease from a bank is too appealing to developing countries.
 
winginit
Posts: 2422
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Iraqi Airways to order A330neo or B777

Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:23 pm

Can we all snap back to reality for a second? Is there anyone contributing to this thread who honestly believes that Iraqi Airways is going to receive the necessary approvals to fly nonstop to the United States in the next five years? Ten years?

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