FlyboyOz
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Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:54 pm

Hey,

I was wondering why most european airlines (I don't care about codeshares) have never flown to Australia?

Thanks!
The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
 
vywh
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 2:02 pm

Does BA operate flights to Australia?
 
aamd11
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 2:08 pm

Yes BA does, but not many others... there is no market for the French or germans to travel to Australia it seems... But BA has a huge market... between britain and Sydney alone there muct be a good 2000seats a day... maybe 3000 seats... then melbourne too... its amazing how many seats there are.. and when i went the plane was at capacity it seemed... amazing if you ask me..
Lauda does...
Lufthansa i dont think does..
Air France... nope.. not to my knowledge...
i dont know many.. BA and Lauda.. BA is by far the biggest Euro carrier to the region... hands down
 
flyinghighboy
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 2:10 pm

KLM flew to SYD, daily I think it was as well.
Lauda and BA still fly. But look how many planes do the kangaroo route.
BA, QF, EK, SQ, Gulf Air, Malaysian, Gurauda, and some more asian carriers.
 
LH423
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 2:14 pm

The main reason European airlines do not operate to Australia themselves is because it's not economically feasible for them to do so. The costs of having a flight that long, then having to over-night the crew (which should include 4 flight crew). The fuel load and stopovers and the fact that for most European airlines, in order to be competitive, must fly a 747 make Australian routes un-economical for European airlines. Only BA, for obvious economic, cultural, and historic reasons, operates into Australia now on a regular basis, but even they have cut back their routes from Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth, and I think Adelaide to just Sydney and Melbourne.

LH423
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DETA737
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 2:26 pm

Alitalia, JAT, KLM, Lufthansa, Olympic Airways and UTA all served Australia in the past. I believe all that's left now is British Airways. Alitalia and Olympic Airways were catering mainly to immigrant communities in Australia instead of business passangers and therefore gave up these routes. Both airlines are in financial trouble anyway so I don't see them relaunching these services anytime soon. JAT also served Australia until the early 90s I believe but don't expect them to return anytime soon. KLM and Lufthansa both pulled out recently preferring to use codeshare flights. UTA also served Australia before their merger with Air France, but I believe most flights were to and from the French colonies in the Pacific. Simpy put it is extremely expensive to fly from Europe to Australia and most airlines aren't willing to take the risk unless they can guarantee the route will be a moneymaker.
 
docpepz
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 2:30 pm

But likewise, Singapore Airlines and Malaysia Airlines operate very long sectors to the USA(24 hours to New York, 18 hours to LAX) and they're profitable. So why can't European carriers do the same with Australia?
 
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eta unknown
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 3:20 pm

Allow me to clarify...
BA (747-400) currently flies to SYD & MEL. ADL BNE PER suspended.
Lauda (777-200) serves SYD & MEL.
Olympic (A340) serves SYD & MEL (route under the microscope).

Alitalia (747-200) suspended flights 1999.

JAT (DC-10) forced to suspend flights due to sanctions.

KLM (747-400) suspended flights 2001.

Lufthansa (747-400) suspended flights after unofficially transfering the route to subsidiary Condor (767-300) in the late 90's.

UTA (747-400 & DC-10) route authority transfered to Air France (747-400)- flights suspended later. Route taken over by AOM (DC10 then A340)- flights suspended in 2000.
 
parisien
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 8:16 pm

Yes, many more european and american airlines used to fly to Australia....but with codesharing, all that is no more. I remember way back when (1992) I saw UTA in MEL...also BA, AZ, KL and OA. IN SYD, LH, BA, AZ, KL, OA, Aeroflot, Lauda and Air France (parked in SYD unserviced as a protest against nuclear test in the pacific) and AOM. As for American airlines, CO used to fly to MEL (and SYD ?), NW to SYD, and of course UA. DId American fly their own plane there at one point ?

thats why i dont like codesharing !
 
vywh
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 8:25 pm

Does BA operate direct flights from London to Australia??
 
TNboy
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 8:33 pm

Yes, Parisien, AA flew to OZ on, I think, two separate occasions some years back. Both times were fairly short lived. CO kept at it for longer. United took over the Pam Am services, and Hawaiian operated to Sydney for a time.
I recall that, at one time, AA managed to get quite a bit of publicity because they had the world'st FA on board. She was well in her 60s. Don't know what the publicity achieved - maybe they were after the seniors market?
I once flew UTA Paris-Sydney and really enjoyed the flight. The FA's wore pale blue sleeveless skinny-rib sweaters. Very distracting. But, as has been said, most European carriers now codeshare. In Perth, for example, we don't see any at all, only Qantas, the Asian carriers - Singapore, Malaysian, Thai International, Royal Brunei, Cathay Pacific, all of whom flky through to Europe - and South African Airways and Air Mauritius, who also go on to Europe, and an occasional Air NZ for Perth - Auckland.
Cheers
Bill
"...every aircraft is subtly different.."
 
TNboy
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 8:35 pm

Vywh - yes, but only to the eastern states. I'm sure someone from melbourne or Sydney can give you details.They connect in Singapore and Hong Kong with other flights.
Bill
"...every aircraft is subtly different.."
 
roguetrader
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 8:53 pm

This is a very easy question to answer, actually.

Previously, a lot of Europan carriers (and Pan Am in the USA) flew these gigantic worldwide networks, largely for prestige and largely not making any money. For instance, even though LHR-SYD has probably always been viable, AF and LH probably never had any profitable business flying to OZ, they did it just so they could be a true worldwide airline: it was an issue of pride.

Not to be harsh, but Oz is a small country, its about the size in terms of population and economic power as the US state of Texas. For a country of 20 million on the other side of the world, Oz should be proud it has ANY European service. Look at all the medium and larger countries in S. America with only modest or no European service.

Also, to reply to an earlier post by DocPepz -- SIN acts as a regional hub for much of Asia, albeit not a very big one, which acts as a collection point for pax going on to the USA. By contrast, SYD is at most, only a hub for OZ and can pick up only Aussie traffic.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
Braniff Place
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 8:54 pm

Codesharing is just bullshit. It is the reason why we have next to no international carriers in Australia.

Once apon a time in brisbane, we had several american and european carriers. Now we have none, literally.

American Airlines served Australia for a very short time during the 1970s, but eventually cancelled the operation.

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Iam still angry about BA pulling out of Perth and Brisbane and codesharing with QF, i thought BA would have so much more commitment to australia after all Australia is so closely related to England.

I dont understand ANA either. Once they had something like 14 flights a week into BNE alone! They even had the australian services as a big highlight on their route map. And now they wont even keep their Australian offices in operation. Now that really pisses me off. I used be a very loyal customer to them. Thanks for nothing ANA.


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Continental is another one they cancelled BNE SYD and MEL in the early-mid 90s. Jeez they better hold on to that CNS service with their life! CO is a great airline and Australia needs them.

Air France, well im just happy they maintain offices all around australia.


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I just cant see why so many airlines cant make the little extra effort by flying only 7 more hours from singapore to Australia. There is a great european market here waiting to be taken

-Braniff Place
 
TNboy
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 10:36 pm

Rogue Trader is almost correct. Although Oz is small in population and economic influence, it nonetheless has a enormous links to Britain and Europe, (largest Greek population outside Athens, large Italian, British populations, etc),and consequently a (relatively) large market for flights linking these destinations. However, there's no real evidence that Europeans want to fly only on their national carriers. Qantas, British Airways and the services of Asian carriers such as SQ linking through Singapore tend to cater for the majority of these passengers.
I recall flying on a Pan Am flight Sydney-Bangkok many years ago on a 707 with 11 passengers. There was more crew than pax, and there weren't even enough pax for one poor lady to get interest in a foursome for bridge. Loads improved as we travelled further towards London, but the Sydney-Bangkok link was really just a bit of flag-waving.
And why should they all fly the route unprofitably? United is the only US carrier to directly link the US with Oz, and they find it a struggle at times.
Sure, it would be great to have them all here, but I'd rather they made money on profitable routes, kept flying, and we can always join up with them somewhere else if it's really that important. After all, most flights to Europe are mostly all-nighters anyway.
Cheers
Bill
"...every aircraft is subtly different.."
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 10:50 pm

BA flies to Sydney and Melbourne via Bangkok and Singapore for those who don't know this.

Arsenal@LHR
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lmml 14/32
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 11:06 pm

Isn't there a restriction by Aussie authorities that any European airline flying to Oz must not do so non stop? Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
roguetrader
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sat Apr 13, 2002 11:11 pm

Rogue Trader is almost correct

Impertinence noted.

 
NG737PSR
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 12:12 am

Also don't forget the massive Winter charter programmes that Britannia used to offer to Australia 1988-1999 using B767-200/300ERs

LGW/MAN - CNS/BNE/OOL/SYD/CBR/MEL/ADL/PER/ASP/DRW - all served at some time with onward flights to AKL/CHC in some cases.

They used to operate UK-Aus/Nz via BAH/AUH/SHJ and SIN/BTM (Batam Island).

 
karliboy
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 2:12 am

this might be just a load of crap, but a Qantas representative once told me that either Hapag-Lloyd or Condor used to fly to Hayman Island from Germany...charter traffic of course...does anyone know if this is true?

Karl
 
gardermoen
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 2:30 am

Not sure if its Hayman Island or not, but I have seen pix of Condor 757s at some airport in one of the Queensland island resorts. Hayman, Proseperine?
Condor, Hapag Lloyd and LTU have occasional chartes to various destinations in Australia (Darwin, Broome, Hobart, Uluru etc)


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JAL
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 3:13 am

Doesn't BA and KLM flies to Australia?
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docpepz
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 3:43 am

JAL:

BA still flies to Sydney and Melbourne via Bangkok or Singapore.

KLM did a AMS-SIN-SYD route but suspended it a year ago I think. (Or maybe more than that, but no more than two years ago)

So it's basically only BA and Lauda Air that fly to Australia from Europe. Anyway you have MH, TG, SQ and QF which I think together bring in over 90% of Europeans into Australia!

I read in an earlier post that QF might start a SYD-SIN-ZRH service.

And is it true that QF are basing planes in SIN for flights that originate and terminate in SIN? (and don't go on and come from Australia??)

Qantas is the most frequent visitor to Singapore and Singapore Airlines is the most frequent visitor to Australia. I wonder how things would have been if QF sold 25% to SQ instead of BA..... hmm.. well, I shall not digress.

Cheers!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 5:50 am

Impertinence noted

Arrogance noted!

 Laugh out loud





I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Britair
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 8:17 am

British Airways current Australia schedule is:

BA9 London-Bangkok-Singapore 744 daily
BA15 London-Singapore-Sydney 744 daily
BA17 London-Singapore-Melbourne 744 5 times a week

...and until March 29 this year:
BA21 London-Singapore-Sydney 744 5 times a week (this service was transferred from Qantas QF31/32 since October last year due to Qantas needing capacity on domestic flights after the Ansett collapse and BA having overcapacity post 9/11, but the service has now been taken over by Qantas again. It was pretty cool though for the last 6 months to have three BA 744's most days in Sydney!!)

Cheers  Smile
 
Republic
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 8:27 am

Braniff Place:

AA did have service to Australia in the 1970s. AA swapped its transpacific routes for Pan Am's Caribbean authority in June of 1975. United purchased Pan Am's Pacific division in February of 1986.

Regards,
Joe
 
Braniff Place
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 8:54 am

Thank you very much for the information, Joe! Big grin
 
tullamarine
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 11:08 am

This has been discussed before and the answer is still the same.....yield!

Yes there are a lot of European migrants in Australia and there would possibly be a market for them but the yield on these flights would be incredibly poor.

To be profitable, a European airline would have to attract high yield J pax and this is unlikely because a European airline is unlikely to have the frequency to attract premium pax. Therefore codesharing on QF or Asian airlines between Asia and Australia makes sense with connections to European airlines in SIN, BKK or HKG.
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clipper471
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 11:38 am

"AA swapped its transpacific routes for Pan Am's Caribbean authority in June of 1975."

Republic, there was no such deal with American...

Pan Am began flying to Australia in 1947. Before that, they had been in the Pacific since 1935, with the introduction of the China Clipper. The Pacific Division steadily grew beginning in 1935 until, cringe here, it was sold to UAL in 1985 and transferred Feb-1986.

PAA sold Panagra, a Pan "South" American subsidiary, to Braniff in 1967. Braniff sold the division to Eastern in 1982. Then Eastern sold the Latin American Division to American in 1989.

Pan Am's Latin American Division was awarded to United Airlines after PAA ceased operations Dec-1991.
 
Republic
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 12:35 pm

Clipper 471:

I am only relaying what I have read concerning the AA/Pan Am route swap. This comes from The Vital Guide To Major Airlines of the World, by Gunter Endres and Robert Hewson. As to whether their information is correct, I am not an aviation historian, so I cannot attest to its accuracy.

Rgds,
Joe
 
FlyboyOz
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 6:28 pm

Wow! that's very long answer...thanks for answering my questions...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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Andie007
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 7:24 pm

Braniff Place:

When codesharing is "bullshit" - why is Qantas not flying to MUC,BCN,MAD,VIE,HAM,CPH,MAN,MXP,LIS,SXF,ARN,ZRH,WAW,....
 
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Plane Holland
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 7:55 pm

I think KLM stopped because they didn't have fifth right from Singapore to Sydney.
 
parisien
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 8:35 pm

codesharing can be good...checkthrough which is convenient, airlines taking more responsiblities of each others' passangers, expanded destinations and of course mileage !
But the negative side is that we see less variety of airlines in any given airport. Luckily my airport is CDG and there at least, we can still see planes from many far away destinations. Last trip to CDG I saw the beautiful Qantas plane and VARIG among others. However, we dont get to see the real interesting long haul planes of many european airlines !!!
 
kl713
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 14, 2002 10:53 pm

KLM also stopped because of the code-share agreement with MAS, and the high costs the crew brought during their stay in Oz......
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yyz717
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Mon Apr 15, 2002 1:15 am

AA suspended it's Aus routes due to profitability. They retained the authority for some years after.

Like it or not, codesharing is here to stay. It's simply the next level in efficiency and sharing of revenue for airline partners.

As for more Euro airlines flying to Aus, Tullamarine said it best.....it remains a low-yield market.

Aus is OVERWHELMINGLY of British background, so the only Euro carrier likely remain in the market is BA.

The much vaunted Greek, German, Dutch, Italian communities in Aus are actually very small.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
meechy36
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Mon Apr 15, 2002 1:37 am

AA operated from HNL to SYD in the late 80's, early 90's. It was on a DC-10 that at first was sold as business and coach, in actuality it was just a regular domestic first class section, no leg rests or other amenities except upgraded service, towards the end we had a 3 class aircraft on the route. I non-reved on this flight quite a bit since I have friends in MEL and the hard part of the trip was getting to HNL, once there there was never a question of getting on the SYD flight or the return. I also believe it wasn't a daily flight, I think it was only 4 days a week and the other 3 days it went HNL-AKL.
When we announced we were cancelling the service I asked one of the crew why and she said they were told that "AA couldn't remain competitive flying from HNL now that UA, NW, QF and NZ were all flying nonstop from the west coast and all we were carrying were tourists as the high yield pax chose to go nonstop". While it sucked to lose the flight it made sense since in all the times I had done the flight I never had to sit in coach since the premium cabins always had seats, just wish it worked that way on the HNL flights, usually in 36E, now that REALLY sucked.

Mike-BOS
 
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skippy777
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Mon Apr 15, 2002 2:15 am

KLM once had 6 flights a week to Sydney until last year May.

They had 3 flights with KLM aircrafts and 3 flights as a "Code share " with Alitalia ( just before their alliance was finished ) Only those 3 "codeshare" flights where KLM aircrafts and KLM Crew.

Air France serves Noumea and AOM used to fly Paris Orly, Colombo, Sydney, Noumea and back. Crew satyed in Australia ( flight was only about 2 hours from Sydney to Noumea and 2 hours back. So the crew got onboard in Sydney and left in Sydney again.

 
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skippy777
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Mon Apr 15, 2002 2:16 am

KLM once had 6 flights a week to Sydney until last year May.

They had 3 flights with KLM aircrafts and 3 flights as a "Code share " with Alitalia ( just before their alliance was finished ) Only those 3 "codeshare" flights where KLM aircrafts and KLM Crew.

Air France serves Noumea and AOM used to fly Paris Orly, Colombo, Sydney, Noumea and back until last year also. Crew stayed in Australia ( flight was only about 2 hours from Sydney to Noumea and 2 hours back. So the crew got onboard in Sydney and left in Sydney again.
 
clipper471
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 21, 2002 4:23 am

Republic, you are misinterpreting the PA/AA route "swap". 1975 saw many route consolidation agreements. "Airline 1" would abandon a region when, in exchange, its main competitor that the abandonment would benefit, "Airline 2", would abandon a region benefiting "Airline #1".

Most likely the AA/PA agreement you refer to is an agreement where AA leaves the Pacific to PA, in exchange PA leaves San Juan, Puerto Rico to AA (except MIA, Caracas, and LIS).
 
ryanair
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 21, 2002 6:20 am

I think it was a case of PA pulling out of the Carribean and AA leaving Australia. Both later returned to each of course.

In terms of European flights, it's very hard for the European Carriers to compete with the South East Asian carriers. This is because they are hub flights so serve many markets with the same aircraft thus allowing higher frequencies compared to the couple a week the Europeans could reasonably offer. Secondly it's a very price sensative market because of the distance (and therefore cost involved) for the customer and the lower costs enjoyed by the Asian carriers makes them more competitive in terms of lower fares. That's basically why, plus the European airlines tend to prefer one sector flights as these have been found to be more profitable, Australia requires two.

As was said elsewhere, in the past much was simply flag waving on the part of governments, as the European majors have been sold off the airlines have been freer to work on a commercial basis.

As for the US, 10 years ago there was massive over supply resulting in big losses for all. At the time the US Airlines were struggling to survive and cut Australia because it lost so much money and served no special role in fortifying their hubs. Only US who had the aircraft to support daily non stops from the mainland remained.
 
clipper471
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RE: Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?

Sun Apr 21, 2002 1:30 pm

Ryanair, just to clarify... PA didn't pull out of the Caribbean in this AA agreement (if indeed this was one of the 1975 approved route 'swaps'). They eliminated about 75% of their San Juan schedule. They continued serving, uninterrupted, most of the Caribbean after this was done.

I notice this San Juan reduction from the mid-1975 timetables. From San Juan, only 4 flights (not all were daily) remained: Caracas, Lisbon, Madrid, and Miami. While 13 flights were cut from San Juan to: Baltimore, Barbados, Boston, Fort de France, New York (3x), Philadelphia, Pointe A Pitre, and Santo Domingo. Miami went from 4x to 1x.