wirraway
Posts: 1294
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:32 am

Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 3:28 pm

Richard Branson announced today that Virgin Blue
is to go International starting with NZ within 12
months and the most probably to Asia soon after,
full AAP article here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50282

Wirraway
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 3:46 pm

YES, YES, YES !!!

Virgin Blue A346 or Virgin Blue A343 ??

 
United Airline
Posts: 8769
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 3:49 pm

Oh that's good!

Will it become a FULL SERVICE Carrier as well?
 
flyinghighboy
Posts: 721
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2001 8:06 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 4:45 pm

Ha 346 for DJ. as if. After NZ they will start taking over the spots AN left off eg bali.
 
Al
Posts: 584
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 10:28 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 6:08 pm

If true, then that's the end of NZ. They'll never survive a DJ and QF assault on their cash cow trans tasman routes. Also they can kiss goodbye any hope of feed from an Oz carrier which only makes their trans tasman services even more vulnerable.
Cheers. Al.
 
b744
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 5:48 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 6:13 pm

Al,

It is widely known that NZ lose money on trans-tasman routes.

Last I heard, NZ and DJ were still in talks re feeding each other's networks. Has this changed?

 
NZ767
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 9:17 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 6:35 pm

Don't laugh too soon AI.
Virgin Blue and Air New Zealand are still in talks.
Don't forget, they're gonna want feed on this side of the ditch too and could you imagine Branson going with Qantas?
But, as we all know in this industry, anything can happen!
 
wirraway
Posts: 1294
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:32 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 6:50 pm

RB did mention this morning about a logo change
for DJ flying international whatever that means.

If flying to either HK, shanghi or Narita, I think the
A340 would probably be the ideal aircraft for these
routes, look forward to the formal signing of the
partnership with Patrick Corp on Wednesday, where
we should learn who they have chosen between Boeing
and Airbus for the narrow bodies, and any other
surprising announcments.

Wirraway
 
Al
Posts: 584
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 10:28 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 7:00 pm

Remember Branson tearing up the "cheque" that was for NZ buying DJ ?? That slam you just heard was Branson walking out of the door on future talks. DJ don't need NZ anywhere near a quarter what NZ need DJ. Branson knows it too - with his cost structure and DJ's 19,000,000 person home market, he could really hurt NZ, then turn it into a gem for him.
The potential he'll find a Kiwi partner (for the ownership issues) to eventually turn the Koru into a red Virgin is a good medium bet I reckon. I'd imagine the N.Z. Government would prefer to sell to Virgin than Qantas if worse came to worst and no other offers were on the table.

As to the statement everyone knows they are losing money trans tasman, why are they still flying it then, or I'll rephrase that to why aren't they doing something about reigning in costs on it?? Too many flights?? Cut them. Who says they have to fly to SYD from AKL 3 or 4 times a day. Fly it once or twice *if* that makes you money. Prestige, ego and pride is some of the cause of the situation they are now in - the object of the game is to make money, not be seen where you think you should be seen !! If they're bleeding money left, right and centre, as everyone is admitting, then do something. It's the same mistakes all over again - shuffling deckchairs on the Titanic.
I know they've publicly stated it looks likely all flights under 4 hours will become a no frills, bare bones service, which is a good start, but it's catch 22. They'll lose their corporates and yield to QF. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

How long will the N.Z. public stand by and allow NZ to milk their treasury with these constant losses and handouts??
It's a serious question - I don't know how passionate about NZ the public are there, or if they will stand for increased taxes and personal pain if the Govt slugs the taxpayers to help NZ out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't they almost, if not haven't already, spent the bailout money with no tangible results?

I'm not "going" at NZ, just saddened that they haven't seemed to shake off their conservative, steady as she goes, let's look at things slowly tag. Same mistakes over and over. They were a fantastic niche carrier and doing very well till Cushing tried to fiddle things.
Whatever happened to him anyway ??
Cheers/Regards.
Al.
 
NZ767
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 9:17 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 7:15 pm

Yes I remember Branson tearing up that cheque.
Was a nice publicity stunt.
I also remember recent reports of him being in talks with Air NZ.

How long will the New Zealand public stand by and allow our treasury to be milked by them??
I really don't know.
I would hope not too long, but, unfortunately, we're a pretty complacent lot over here so who knows!
We allowed the Govt to cut the rope and leave us undefended so.............
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2253
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 8:07 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if the NZ government simply tore up the current air agreement with Australia. They will want to protect their investment in the carrier, do have socialist leanings and do, belive it or not, hold sovereign power over our airspace.

Seems only fair to protect our national carrier the same way successive Australian government have done for Qantas for, well, ever.

And exactly why is everyone so besotted with Richard Branson? He's a great entrepreneur, but suffers the fate of many in his league, losing the edge in his initial companies and subsequently their profitability suffering. I understand he uses the profits from his start-up businesses to cover mounting debts in other more established companies.
 
Marara
Posts: 634
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 8:30 pm

I could just see that, the aussie media would slaughter them.

Aussie govt would probably kill NZs SYD-LAX. It probably wouldnt phase QF too much as they could then use the aircraft back in australia. Would the 744ER be able to do the SYD - DFW ??
I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
 
rmm
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 8:48 pm

Marara,
Tend to agree, I think the bigger loser would be AirNZ if the government scrapped the trans-tasman deal.
A tie up with DJ makes some sense in as much as AirNZ are considering a low cost model for trans tasman runs, although they would probably lose Star Alliance status.
It seems the NZ govt will have to make a hard decision soon, lets hope they dont dither to long for the sake of AirNZ staff.

Rmm
 
NZ767
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 9:17 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 8:50 pm

Well it's happened before Marara, only in reverse.
Ever heard of the "Open" Skies Agreement and what happened with that a few years back?
 
Marara
Posts: 634
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:01 pm

Kiwis may also be a bit annoyed loosing competition as it would be seen as airfares rising and services declining (no frills on flights shorter than 4 hrs).

When i said slaughter them i meant the government and airline. Air NZs name has already been hurt badly here, this would just give the press more ammo. Transtasman ties are strained also with AU govt medling with the QF-SQ-NZ triangle, NZs scrapping of the Skyhawks, the Boat ppl and of course ANs Demise
I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
 
wirraway
Posts: 1294
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:32 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:10 pm

Tear up the agreement and the NZ tourist industry
will die, how many work in it? 1000s I believe, not
to mention half the AirNZ workforce that will no longer be needed, really bright suggestion.
 
Al
Posts: 584
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 10:28 pm

The SAM

Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:46 am

Hey NZ767. Thanks for answering my question on the public's latitude they'll give NZ. Interesting.
As far as the open skies or SAM goes, it's still in effect. NZ, or any other NZ flagged carrier for that matter, still have local traffic rights *within* Oz and a certain number of movements per week/year from points in Oz onward to Asia and points northwest with traffic rights. Same amount of rights as QF or other Oz carrier has ex N.Z. to other points.
NZ dismantled their BNE hub that was feeding into several points in Asia as it didn't work out, and they no longer had a need to do domestic Oz once they had AN. Now of course they can't afford to start domestic Oz even if they wanted to. The only part of SAM that has never been instigated is the part 3, or the final part. The "one market" concept where unlimited oncarriage with rights to carriers of either country from the other country and a once only customs/immigration inspection for both countries at the first arrival point in either country. (Effectively turning trans-tas into domestics). I recollect that mongrel Keating stopping that at the last minute before it went into effect. Scuttlebutt will have it that QF was bending over for him at the time to persuade him to block it. Knowing both the old QF then and Keating it'd be more than likely true !!
Cheers. Al.
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5794
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:28 am

Richard Branson is a very nice man, a good friend however he is also very cunning. He has told me that he is waiting to see how the market takes to Australian airlines before deciding on wether to connect the Virgin network to asia-sydney through Virgin Blue, Virgin Atlantic or neither. NZ is definitley on the cards however he has said that if ANZ picks up he may be forced to temporarily suspend plans to fly to NZ and opt for sectors like the Australia-Fiji market.

Straight from the horses mouth. P.s: good work this morning richard! I would have needed about twice as much cash to do it.
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
aussie_
Posts: 1600
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 10:39 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:26 pm

I am tempted to believe you QFforever but your profile lists you as a 16-20yo Australian. I would be very curious to know how you are such good buddies with Sir Dick, especially if you are such a qantas devotee!
 
Guest

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:29 pm

DJ should team up with NZ.

Because DJ+NZ < QF.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2253
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 3:58 pm

Wirraway: I only said that I wouldn't be surprised if the Clarke government did this, I never recommended it. And on the face of it, it does actually seem to be a fair move. You don't have to dig very deep to see it would hurt everyone in the long-term. The thing is, governments last only a few years and care only for their immediate popular support.

Thinking about it, Air NZ has only 3 services per week between Australia and another country, the US. Qantas has a hell of a lot more from NZ to the rest of the world (including codeshares). Hmmmmm, who would be the bigger loser?

On another matter briefly touched upon, if Air NZ does decide to offer only one level of service on shorter flights, will this negate its membership in the Star Alliance? SAS are introducing one-class on short haul flights and they are not being threatened with any kind of expulsion. Yet I thought two classes of service (minimum) was a prerequisite. If it no longer is, then surely Virgin Blue would be a candidate to join Star too. Just a thought.
 
Skystar
Posts: 1339
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2000 3:58 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:15 pm

Ahh, but SK is offering service! Who said you needed to have two classes to join Star? If you fly certain Austrian or Lufthansa flights, you're basically flying a one class service - especially on RJs.

DJ doesn't satisfy, IMHO, the requirements to join Star, because it isn't a premium carrier. It doesn't have the FFP, onboard services, etc. If NZ went to a oneclass Economy Class service for short haul flights, well they'd still be beating most airlines' short haul offerings, even some in the premium classes. Ever flown Lufthansa in Business Class on a short haul before?

In regards to Trans-Tasman, well, NZ is more reliant on Trans-Tasman traffic than Qantas. Aussie pax are very important to NZ's survival. QF has a broader network than NZ and is less reliant on New Zealand.

Cheers,

Justin
 
wirraway
Posts: 1294
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:32 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:51 pm

Latest from Dow Jones:Extract

Branson said it is likely that Virgin Blue will fly between Sydney and Hong Kong rather than using Virgin Atlantic.

"It would need to be an Australian airline to fly that route," he said.

He pointed out that Qantas Airways Ltd. is the only Australian airline currently flying between Sydney and Hong Kong, while Ansett did well on that route before its collapse.

"Through Virgin Atlantic we have the expertise of flying long-haul routes, and that expertise could be given to Virgin Blue," Branson said.

"I would hope that...within the next 18 months we would be flying that route."

He added that Virgin Blue will likely use Boeing 747 400 aircraft to fly between Sydney and Hong Kong.
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5794
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

Aussie.....

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:04 pm

I am 20 years old and I know Richard because my father went all through school with him in England.
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
United Airline
Posts: 8769
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:34 pm

So I guess they will go FULL SERVICE! At least for HKG-SYD. Right?
 
wirraway
Posts: 1294
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:32 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:51 pm

Of course it will be full service, as the extract say's
Virgin Blue crews would be trained by Virgin Atlantic,
must be an even bet that if DJ are going to graduate
to 747-400s to meet the daily VS LHR-HKK that
the next trick would be for Virgin Blue blue to link up
with the Atlantic LHR-LAX, could just about do a
RTW using the sister airlines.

Wirraway
 
Guest

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:40 pm

Aerokiwi,

It would be mad for Madam Clarke to institute such changes. Not only would it hurt NZ in the short term the huge amount of tourist dollars and investment would go out of the window.

Any kind of control put in place like that would incurr the wrath of our federal goverment and like others in the world would boycott NZ.

It isn't going to happen. QF are moving on in and there isn't a dammned thing the NZ government can do about it.

mb
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2253
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 7:27 pm

But that's exactly my point Mx5 boy, there is something that can be done about it. NZ is getting zero feed from australia at the moment. The Tasman loses NZ huge amounts and has done so for a very long time. Everybody knows that. And despite Australia's continued belief that New Zealand is practically its own territory, it isn't.

The response by a populist government? Protect the national pride and save the koru, especially with over a billion dollars invested in it now. And in an election year too. Sure it would have long-term side-effects, but they are now owned by ALL Kiwis. Politics can no longer be separated from Air NZ's future.

If Qantas decides to flex its strength, the Commerce Commission will be brought into the picture to level the playing field.

And exactly who would boycott New Zealand? And why? Qantas has been protected and favoured by Australian governments ever since it was privatised. AND, Keating reneged on the air agreement about a day before it was due to be implemented. What a winner!

NZ still has a chance. Government owned, fantastic reputation and small and nimble enough to adapt faster than Qantas could ever hope. Don't write them off yet.
 
United Airline
Posts: 8769
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:02 pm

That's good

I guess they might lease/buy an additional B 747-400.
 
wirraway
Posts: 1294
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:32 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:03 pm

Wait untill tomorrow, as there is a press conference
at Sydney airport with Branson and Corrigan and
some major announcements to be made, including
I hope the decision on the B737/A320. If DJ were to
go to LAX they would need 3 747-400s, whereas only
1 is needed for HK.

Wirraway
 
POSITIVE RATE
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:31 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:43 pm

If they do start international services they should start with Singapore/HKG and possibly Tokyo. They could use the 737-800 for flights to Fiji/NZ and maybe the A330-300/A340-600 for their Asian flights. Maybe the 767-400 would be an option if they want to stick with an all Boeing fleet?
 
aussie_
Posts: 1600
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 10:39 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Wed Apr 17, 2002 7:31 am

The one thing about 1 plane meeting up with another is of course that if one of the two encounters a delay, connections for pax are stuffed. What is more, a single flight number must surely be more appealing than 2.

That said, in terms of crew accomodation etc etc, I suppose 2 seperate flights by 2 airlines would be more economical
 
CX747
Posts: 5576
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:22 pm

Has there been any announcements yet?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
NZ767
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 9:17 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:30 pm

Just seen Branson and Patrick on Australian Sky!
No announcement yet!!
 
CX747
Posts: 5576
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:30 pm

Any ideas on where they will come up with the 747-400s? New birds or old ones?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
NZ767
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 9:17 am

RE: Virgin Blue To Go International

Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:34 pm

....RB and Chris Corrigan from Patrick I should've said.
It's on again now.
No mention of 747s CX.
Only 737s or A320s.
No definite numbers and nothing specific.
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5794
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

AirOrange...........

Thu Apr 18, 2002 10:05 am

Hey there, do you think with your extraordinary design talents, grace us with a pic of a DJ 744 or A320?

You are the best.

Qforever
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.

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