lmml 14/32
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EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Mon Apr 15, 2002 8:14 pm

http://www1.airpics.com/var/read.php?id=96

(I hope this was not posted before)
 
Guest

RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Mon Apr 15, 2002 8:29 pm

bizzare story.

I wonder what the captain's version of the story is.
 
Guest

RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:05 pm

Weird...and thus somewhat frightening...
 
El Al 001
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:47 pm

No it wasnt posted yet.

This 'thing' happend a week ago and I was too ashamed to post it.

LY doesnt offer F class services anymore on its 747-200.
On that flight, there were 10 lucky people who paid for an economy ticket and were seated in old F class seats in the upper deck.

Basically, what the article says is true, there was no place in the upper deck for the pilot, nor in the C/class seats.
Just so you undersatnd, the pilot that had no place wasnt on duty, he was just sent to the US to bring another flight back. As I've understood it, he didnt care all about it, it was the the ceptain who started the fire.

He got mad and simply went home, by the time another pilot was found the flight was delayed in 3 hours.
Such an arrogant and irresponsible pilot.

What makes me more nervous is that LY pilots committe told the management that in case the pilot will be fired or punished the pilots would start a strike.
What a shame.

Michael.
 
JAL
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:51 pm

The pilot is pretty stupid in my opinion!!!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
El Al 001
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:53 pm

BTW, before anyone asks, LY did stop using the 747-200 to NYC one year ago, BUT, as in all airlines sometimes equipment may vary. 742 on a pax service to the US is a very rare thing at El Al.
 
Guest

RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:56 pm

yes, and it's really NOT reassuring to know El-Al has that kind of "nervous" pilots...

Was this captain an IAF pilot? I don't think so...
 
keesje
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:59 pm

Guys like this can give pilots a bad name in an airline ..
Luckely most are down-to-earth on airlines.net !


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Toni Marimon



keesje
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
avi
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Mon Apr 15, 2002 10:09 pm

This is the problem in a company that all the pilots (and managers) are friends from the air force.
In any other company he was fired on the spot.

This 'thing' happend a week ago and I was too ashamed to post it.

Me too.
Long live the B747
 
Guest

RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Mon Apr 15, 2002 11:41 pm

Not all of El-Al's pilots are from the IAF; with this argument, a woman who wanted to become pilot at El-Al won the lawsuit she introduced after the airline's refusal to accept her at the pilots' school.
El-Al has one woman pilot (but I don't know if it's the same person).
 
lmml 14/32
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:01 am

With no disrespect to Israelis (or Jews) or the pilot involved, this incident does not surprise me much. It is exeptional, of course, but judging from the temperament of the Israelis I meet on my flights such attitude may be harder for them to overcome than the rest of the human race.
Consider this: An colleague FA on my flight asks the window seat pap whether he wants a drink during the bar service when the aisle pap snaps at her and angrily demanded to know why she did not serve him first. The FA replied there is no particular reason but that it is in her book that window pax are served first - unless there is a woman in the row. There were no women in this row. A heated argument ensued where other pax started taking sides and airing their views. The whole affair was totally uncalled for but it left an impression. Also we learned that the Israelis are very impatient and do not tolerate breaks in the service. So coffee/tea has to be served immediately with the meal and the tray collected within a few minutes otherwise you see them piling the galley with trays - literally !!
Now please do not turn this into a racial thread. It is not my intention to insult or judge. I simply recounted an event I witnesses which I think is relevant. I will not hesitate to suggest deletion. So please keep it clean.
 
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yyz717
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:15 am

That pilot should be fired for causing such a 3 hour delay.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:26 am

Are the pilots guaranteed first class seats in their contract with El Al? If so, I Believe the pilot was justified.

About israelis, I think that it is widely known that they have a temperment about them which comes off as very rude to those not used to it. Just like New Yorkers seems rude to Texans, an israeli probably seems rude to a new yorker.....nothing necessarily wrong with this, it's just a cultural difference.
 
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yyz717
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:30 am

The pilot was justified in causing a 3-hour delay on a 742 flight (causing untold expense for EL AL and the pax), just because his buddy couldn't fly first class????

I say fire the ingrate. He needs a lesson in customer service and gratitude.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Hepkat
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:40 am

Off the topic, but I seem to remember an interesting incident on a Sabena flight a few years ago. On this particular flight there were a lot of American orthodox Jews, especially teenagers. Well, at one particular moment in the flight, they all suddenly got up and started praying! Some passengers were shocked, probably believing there was a hijack situation. It was kinda funny to see people's reactions. Every gentile was clearly restless and uncomfortable, including the FAs (maybe they got clearance before the flight to do this?), but NOBODY had the guts to say anything!
 
tt737fo
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:54 am

Two sides to every story. Did we hear the Capt's? No.

Here are some other things to consider:

1. Were there other pass riders in F? Perhaps there were lower priority non-revs seated there--in which case the Capt would certainly have a gripe.

2. If the El Al contract says they can ride in F, then they should be riding in F.
 
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yyz717
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:58 am

Why would an active pilot consider it his province to get involved in prioritizing non-revs? This is for ground staff to deal with.

His lack of consideration for ALL pax and for EL AL's operating costs are astounding. Fire him.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
tt737fo
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:02 am

"This is for ground staff to deal with."

Bullshit. It's the Capt's aircraft. We don't have the jumpseating vs non-reving details-I'm willing to be that there were space-a non revs up in F and his compatriot was getting screwed. There is more to this story than what you read
 
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yyz717
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:06 am

Okay, so assuming there was an available F seat (or a lower priority nonrev in an F seat), you think it's acceptable to delay the flight for 3 hours (causing delays and addl cost to the 300+ revenue pax and EL AL)?

This pilot has shown complete disregard for his customers. Fire him.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
JETPILOT
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:45 am

The deadheading pilot was "ON" duty.... anytime your travelling for the purpose of conducting company business you are working.

It might be stipulated in the company contract that all deadheading pilots be given first class accomodations.

The captain might have been threatened by Operations... which wouldn't have been a unique situation.

The captain has "operation control" over that flight. If the company decides to run things outside of the contract its the captains decision how he wants to handle it.

I was jumpseating on a FedEx flight once..... We sat in the plane 1/2 hour after our schedualed block out time because there was no catering aboard. The captain walked off the plane and went back to the hotel.

Im going to jump to a different conclusion.... I'm going to say.... here's managment screwing crewmembers again.

JET
 
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yyz717
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:50 am

Sounds like it was the revenue pax who got screwed this time JETPILOT.

Hopefully those Fedex customers whose shipments missed service because of that self-centred Fedex pilot have now taken their business to UPS or ABX. Not much evidence of P-S-P (People Service Profit) on that flight deck.

Once again, it's the REVENUE passengers who pay the pilot salaries.....they should be a higher priority than nonrevs.

Guess I need to avoid EL AL and Fedex . No problem.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
JETPILOT
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:58 am

If managment had provided catering (ie: holding up their end of the negotiated contract) then the flight would have left on time and been uneventful.

From what I understand It was a common occurance that flight was delayed for late catering.

By the way..... have you ever sat in one of those EL AL steerage class seats for 14 hours? It's not pretty.

JET

 
toady
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:58 am

Firstly, it's not "the Capt's aircraft"; it's the airline's.

Secondly, the captain's first and overriding priority should be the passengers (their safety, their well-being and their journey), not his colleague.
 
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yyz717
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 11:21 am

JETPILOT, ya MAYBE Fedex should have provided catering, but so what? No pilot is going to starve by taking off without catering....a minor inconvenience at best.

What I see with this EL AL and Fedex pilot is an absolute, singular lack of respect for the customer....the man, woman (and package) that pays the bills.

Both the EL AL and Fedex pilots should have been fired.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
bobcat
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:35 pm

just how bad is El Al's coach class?

In a way, I'm glad the unhappy captain
walked away from the flight. Imagine
what it would be like for him to fly in
that state of mind.... (remember what the
unhappy Egypt Air pilot did?)
 
JETPILOT
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Yyz717

Tue Apr 16, 2002 3:05 pm

Or is it managments absolute singular lack of respect for aircrews......

Makes you think.....

JET
 
Guest

RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 3:12 pm

I'm referring here to LMML's comments about Israelis being rude.

He has a point. I'm extraordinarily pro-Israel in politics and I'm Jewish, but I'll call a spade a spade, Israelis are tough people. They aren't that laid-back, there is a ton of stress and pressure in Israeli society. I think a lot of it has to do with how militarized Israeli society is, nearly every man in the country served in active duty in the military for several years and many have fought to protect the country.

There is a great deal of emphasis placed on efficiency, order, and respect and I suspect when Israelis don't get it, they get annoyed. The gentlemen in the aisle served second just sounds like a jerk, but I can see how Israelis can come off rude, they are very very demanding and somewhat arrogant. You can only imagine how the stress level in that Tower Air terminal all those summer afternoons with delayed flights to TLV and angry Israelis. PA Cops were called in almost daily!
I know, I have many Israeli friends.

TNNH
 
tt737fo
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 3:51 pm

not to mention that the El Al capt probably is/was IAF Col
 
lmml 14/32
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:39 pm

Perhaps a bit off topic but still on the subject of what falls under Capt's discretion:
JETPILOT said:
If managment had provided catering (ie: holding up their end of the negotiated contract) then the flight would have left on time and been uneventful. From what I understand It was a common occurance that flight was delayed for late catering.

What about the contract that the 350 odd pax were holding in their hands (ie the ticket)? Doesn't that count? Any person in the industry or any frequent pap has experienced a delay due to catering. But mostly it is PAX catering. In my experience most of our crews even offer their meal to avoid a delay (to be fair we operate short haul). Then again there is always plenty to go around with refusals.

 
erasmus
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To Yyz717! RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended

Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:47 pm

PERHAPS this is what happened:
The captain riding in the cabin was flown to NY to fly an other aircraft back to Israel. How much rest was he going to get in NY? The minimum legal rest time? Something like ten hours “rest” before he takes off again (or even less) ? At what time would he be arriving in NY ? Would he be able to get a decent sleeping period because of the jet lag ? What agreements were made between the pilot’s union and El Al ? If the agreement says that they should get a business or first class seat, was this the first time that El Al refused this or did the airline try to do this or did they already do this dozens of times??
What would the passengers of the flight back to Tel Aviv be thinking if they knew that their Captain had been flown in in economy sitting next to some noisy teenagers, unable to get some sleep or a decent meal. That he was then brought to a hotel, where he checked in at 4 PM NY local time, that he was picked up at 4 AM local time to fly a 747 with 300+ pax back to TLV and that he was so exhausted by take off time that he could hardly keep his eyes open during the take-off roll ?
If an airline wishes a captain to assume full responsibility of a plane worth several million of dollars and a few hundred lives with minimum rest in NY, the LEAST they can do is try to give him decent resting and catering facilities in first class on the flight into NY!
And if a Fedex pilot turns back to the hotel because of missing catering on board, I’m sure that he didn’t do this the first time it occurred. As a Fedex capt., he had probably been sleeping all day, and was getting ready to fly more then 10 hrs at night without any food (beverages missing as well perhaps ?) Perhaps this even happened several nights in a row, and the captain got fed up with this after several occurences? After he had written several reports to the company complaining about this, he was nearly forced to take this action. I’m sure the catering was provided (as it should be) on his next flight!

A decent seat or catering on board are, in these cases not just "comfort" items, but important contributions to safety in general. If there is one profession where it's important to have a good and comfortable resting period before going to "work", it sure is the profession of an airline pilot!!

Why am I writing all this? NOT because I want to defend or blame anybody or any company, but just to show that this MIGHT have been the situation. Let’s us not shoot, accuse or fire anybody, without knowing their side of the story!

Does that make any sense, Yyz717 ?
 
Guest

RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:32 pm

What is most disturbing in this story is the fact that a captain can get so nervous for something so futile... A pilot must remain calm even in life-threatening situations; it's incredible to see how this Jumbo captain has reacted, almost like a child!

And frankly, if he had any serious argument for his defense...he wouldn't remain so silent...
 
T prop
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:38 pm

Funny thing, according to the article the pilot who had to sit in the cabin had no complaints. If the pilot in the back was o.k. with his/her seating, then why should the Captain flying be upset?

T prop.
 
VC-10
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:00 pm

Well said T prop, that was exactly what I was going to say.

The contributers to this post seemed to have lost sight of the fact the individual who was being "hard done by" was not complaning.

I disagree with TT737FO's response to ""This is for ground staff to deal with."

It is the Capt's a/c as far as the safe operation of the a/c is concerned. Where pax sit is not his concern, that is for the ground staff and the IFS to worry about. I my opinion some Flt Dk crew members have a false impression of their own importance.
 
erasmus
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:07 pm

The pilot said in this article: "I do not want to tell my version to the press.". That's something different then remaining silent. I figure he did talk to El Al management and to his colleages.

Look, if AFTER HAVING HEARD the capt. in question, he was unable to give a good argument explaining his behavior, than and only than, I would fire the guy. (If it was up to me, of course)

Perhaps the Cpt sitting in the back was a junior one, or perhaps he had been intimidated by the flight ops department, ( "we will have to report it to the ceo, if you refuse a coach seat") and the active capt. could not be intimidated.

All I'm trying to say is: do not judge anybody, without knowing all the facts or without having heard both parties' stories!!

Do not execute people without a trial!
 
spk
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:23 pm

I believe in the long-haul 742 there should be plenty of bunk beds for the deadheading pilot to get some decent sleep.

Last time I flew with THAI on 744 and had a chat with an F/A. She told me there are 12 bunk beds on board: 8 near the tail, 2 near U/D stairs and 2 in the rear of cockpit. El Al should also have similar crew rest facilities.
 
Guest

RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:27 pm

that's a good question...
 
744rules
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:33 pm

as far as I was told, a crewmember positioning to another station and continuing as operating crew even has higher priority as a full fare paying pax . The logic behind all this is, that when our crewmember doesn't get to the next station, there is no flight at all. I do not know if this rules goes for all companies, but it does sound logic to me. In this case , if that would have been the case, one seat should not be sold
 
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yyz717
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:09 pm

After safety, the revenue pax comes fiirst.

Ask any PA, EA, AN, SN, C3, SW pilot how important revenue management is....they probably understand this now.

If you screw with the paying passengers over trivial nonsense, you may lose them one day.

I sincerely hope that both this Fedex and EL AL pilot are out of work soon. They have no apparent respect or understanding of customer service.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:41 pm

Pilots and thier ego's what a pain in the ass for the rest of us....
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
VC-10
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:21 pm

We once had a Pilot who was refusing to take his a/c because the ACARS was inop. He changed his mind when we enquired what he would have done if he had been allocated to an a/c in the fleet that didn't have ACARS fitted.
 
lmml 14/32
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:32 pm

Nicely put VC 10. I, too, have seen too many pampered pilots act childishly.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:53 pm

I had a 747 pilot delay a flight once because there was no Blueberry yogurt in the catering. It had yogart but no blueberry.... ( I won't say the airfreight airlines name but "hint" FEDEX bought them in 1988) The flight was to ANC as I recall, lots of lost money on that one ... what a shame ....
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Tue Apr 16, 2002 11:29 pm

Well, I'll batten down the hatches and put in my 2c worth.

If I'm positioning short haul, say LHR-MAN (45 minutes), then I don't care where I sit. The same goes for when I have to fly to operate a schedule away from my home; it's my choice where I live, so it's my choice that I commute.

This pilot however was dead-heading long haul prior to doing a long haul duty sector himself.

Maybe I'm putting 2 and 2 together to make 5, but here are my thoughts.

The Captain flying may have perceived the fact that the other pilot's allocation of an Economy seat was in some way an erosion of pilot's working conditions within El Al.

Now, we all have different attitudes and characters. Whilst the dead-heading pilo0t might not have wanted to rock the boat, who knows, maybe the Captain who took the stance was a union rep, or just has very strong feelings on this.

You might even take the argument to its final conclusion and argue that he was acting in the interests of the carrier, not just for his pal back in Economy; what would the cost have been to El Al had the dead-heading pilot found himself too fatigued to operate EWR-TLV the next day ?

Sorry if I'm taking the minority side here, but I think the Captain flying was correct in insisting the positioning captain was provided a better seat, and if it is stated in El Al's contracts that this should be provided, then El Al have only themselves to blame.

Regards

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
Guest

RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:04 am

With the important time difference between TLV and NYC, is it possible that this pilot could have been scheduled to fly a EWR-TLV flight already the day after his arrival there???! Even if travelling in First, that would seem to be quite crazy!
 
erasmus
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:34 am

Toda Reisinger and everbody else,
Yes, it's very possible that this pilot was scheduled to fly EWR-TLV the next day. PERHAPS he was even scheduled to bring the same plane back to TLV a few hours after his landing in EWR. (Yes, this would be illegal in my country and probably under israeli law as well, but I'm pretty sure that some airline managements would be tempted to do this if for instance the originally planned captain would have had an accident during his layover in NY)

I'm not trying to defend or accuse anybody. I'm just trying to convince everybody that we probably just heard less then half of the full story. I'm just trying to tell you that you should not accuse anybody based on one newspaper article. Who knows, perhaps the journalist was just pissed off because the captain refused to talk to HIM personally.

Again, these are all assumptions I'm making. I don't know all the facts. Nobody on this forum seem to know the facts from a reliable source.
So, please, don't jump to conclusions about this captain or airline pilots in general. ALL the colleages that I know are very nice people and don't act like a child.

Regards,
Erasmus
 
Guest

RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:41 am

Well, the idea that the passenger-pilot could be scheduled to fly EWR-TLV the next day or even in the hours after his arrival in New York didn't even come to my mind!! That really sounds crazy, ...first class or not first class
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:54 am


I couldn´t agree more with what Erasmus wrote. Before you know both sides of the story you cannot comment on this.

That said, I can very well imagine situations in which the pilots behaviour was at least understandable.

Daniel Smile
 
777D
Posts: 285
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:08 am

From El Al 001, it seems he/she has the inside story regarding this situation with El Al. I would fire the pilot.

The position of delaying a flight because a fellow employee did not receive a first class seat? Does this sound logical for anybody in here?

Even if the contract states off-duty or dead head employees should fly first class, to delay a flight with paying passengers is OK with some of you in here?

For crying out loud we are talking about paying passengers, which are paying for a service regardless of how the pilots feel about the seating issues.

I certainly hope the pilot has a good story on why he did what he did. Walking out on a flight delaying important business and family matters.

This pilot deserves to lose his/her job.





 
Spitfire
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RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:23 am

777D,
May I suggest you to read AND UNDERSTAND what Erasmus perfectly stated about a possible deadheading crew. And anyway please wait till you have BOTH parties version to make your opinion. Could be smart !!
Spitfire
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
toady
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 2:36 am

RE: EL AL Pilot Suspended Following A Seating Dispute

Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:50 am

Does anyone know where the dead-heading pilot was sitting when the flight eventually departed?
Where the passengers shuffled around to find him some space in F?
Was the replacement captain content to fly his colleague in economy?

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