Alpha 1
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CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Mon Apr 15, 2002 11:40 pm

CO resumes it's dialy nonstop CLE-LGW today. It was shelved in early October following the Sept 11 attacks.
Flt 66 departs CLE at 725pm. Flt 67, LGW-CLE, will resume on 16 April. Over 180,000 people took the CLE-LGW flight while it operated from June, 1999 till it was supsended last October.

Hopefully, this is a sure sign that air travel, at least for Clevelanders, is getting back to normal.
 
heavymetal
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Mon Apr 15, 2002 11:50 pm

Good news for Cleveland, Continental...AND the 757. This city pair is a prime demonstration not only of Boeing's 'hub bypass' theory in action, but a great example of the versatility of the 'Rocket Ship'...and how longer range designs of the Seven Five should be pursued.
 
DELTA777
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Mon Apr 15, 2002 11:54 pm

I want to go up to CLE, but i can`t drive. too bad.  Sad

D E L T A 7 7 7
 
ncflyer
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:23 am

Well this is good news for Cleveland-- in my opinion CLE is the most underserved market in the country. Only 4 flights to BOS for example, one on a regional jet? (My home market of RDU must have about 15-20 to BOS!). Only 3 flights to LAX? Only 2 flights to SFO?
 
seatback
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 1:03 am

Hub bypass? CO still considers CLE a hub. Wonder why they don't put a 767-200 on the route?
 
heavymetal
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 1:25 am

Hub bypass? CO still considers CLE a hub.

CO certainly doesn't consider Cleveland a European gateway hub....that's reserved for EWR. That's what I meant by my comment.

Whether CLE could become a European, even Asian, embarcation point for CO remains to be seen.
 
LGW
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652's4u

Tue Apr 16, 2002 1:41 am

Oh a 752 at LGW im so happy ooooo i betta go and shoot it.

CO 752's are common and boring...use a bigger a/c to LGW!!!!!

LGW
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: 652's4u

Tue Apr 16, 2002 1:48 am

Good for Cleveland! Always good to hear good aviation news at one of my "other homes."

NCFlyer asks why CLE is so underserved on key routes...do a search for Alpha 1's thread "Want to know why CLE is so screwed up?" The thread has a link to a long article in Cleveland's tabloid-alternative newspaper, the Free Press I think it's called.

Basically, the City of Cleveland runs the airport and uses it as a dumping ground for mayoral cronies who are about as competent as Homer Simpson to run an airport. They keep fees high (which is why WN doesn't expand there) and have fumbled runway reconfiguration repeatedly. They fumbled inquries from JetBLue, and get this, *Lufthansa Cargo!* These airlines *came inquring* and the city messed up. Unbelievable.

It remains to be seen whether the new mayor, Jane Campbell, will change things. Let's hope that the courts don't throw any more monkey wrenches in the runway work.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
N766UA
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 3:57 am

This also marks the start of a 3 day campaign in which Mayor Campbell, the head of city council, and top CO execs will be going to LGW to boost tourism to CLE and Ohio. Looks like the city and CO are finally getting along!

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/micro_stories.plACCT=no&TICK=CAL&STORY=/www/story/04-15-2002/0001706228&EDATE
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Stretch 8
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:25 am

Why would anyone want to fly NS from London to Cleveland, the "mistake by the lake." Or, if you prefer, "Detroit without the glamor." BTW, is the Cucomonga river still on fire?  Big grin
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:33 am

That's so original Stretch. When's the last time you've been to Cleveland? Also, why does it matter what the city is like for you to fly non-stop CLE-LGW? If you live in the midwest and can connect at EWR or CLE why not choose CLE? Your reasoning makes no sense. By the way, it's the Cuyahoga River.
 
Stretch 8
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:10 am

Sorry Flykid. I was in Cleveland last year. My best friend from law school lives in Cleveland, and I bust his chops with the same cliche lines. Cleveland is a great town (but the Indians have not, and will not, win the big one).
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
heavymetal
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:14 am

FrequentFly, let him make fun all he wants. The massively outdated visions of a dumpy downtown and a fiery river in the mind of people who dont know any better is what keeps Cleveland America's best kept secret as far as a great city to live in.

If the secret gets out the cost of living goes up, the traffic gets out of control, the delays at the airport....

YES! CLEVELAND IS A PIT! YOUD NEVER WANT TO LIVE THERE!

(keep thinking that  Wink/being sarcastic )
 
heavymetal
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:15 am

Ahh the truth comes out!  Wink/being sarcastic
 
ncflyer
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:19 am

I am a native Clevelander and in fact am moving back there this summer and am very excited about it cause there isn't a better place to raise a family-- period.

But I will say the airport is now Cleveland's A#1 embarrassment, and it's sad cause in the jet age so many people form their impression of a city based on its airport. The 1970s signage is the same as when I left town in '85, many of the signs have been taped over or have burned out lightbulbs. The signs pointing out the airport exit are so washed out from sun and rain as to be barely readable. I flew WN and their concourse is so under-maintenanced, it's sad. My personal favorite are the entry doors outside the departure level of the airport-- looks like about half of them were hit and destroyed by rental car buses but have never been repaired.

I read the Free Times Article and I sure do hope Mayor Cambpell gets it-- but I don't know how big a hole she can dig out of. I'd say the airport is a good 30 years behind the times-- in terms of its service and the quality of the facility.
 
donder10
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:34 am

This city pair is a prime demonstration not only of Boeing's 'hub bypass' theory in action
Say what?Isnt CLE a hub?
 
Guest

RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:49 am

Hooray!

As a Clevelander I am happy by the news. Now lets get that Tokyo, Paris, Frankfurt flight in here. I'm going too fast. Big grin
 
afitch7881
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:06 am

NCFlyer---


Fly CO and you will see CLE doesn't have a half way bad terminal. Terminal D is it? The comuter terminal is really nice, the tunnel is a nice addition and the CO wing has been expanded and renovated since D was opened. The runway issue sucks however, and I do agree the other parts of the terminal are quite horrible. The ticket counter areas if I remember correct were quite old too.


Eric

 
DELTA777
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:12 am

Cleveland is a great city, and the suberbs like Independance, Rocky River, Cleveland Heights, Shaker Heights, etc. are beautiful ! The airport is a different story.

D E L T A 7 7 7
 
Bernard Shakey
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:15 am

The Cleveland Browns will win the 2003 Super Bowl and you heard it here first.
Mindless drifter on the road, Carries such an easy load
 
Soku39
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:41 am

Only reason Cleveland doesn't have more direct flights or maybe even UNITED using it as a hub is becasue our airport directors are such pains to deal with.
The Ohio Player
 
heavymetal
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:44 am

This city pair is a prime demonstration not only of Boeing's 'hub bypass' theory in action
Say what?Isnt CLE a hub?


Once again...

Cleveland is a hub. Cleveland is NOT a hub to Europe for CO. Newark is. The 757 is changing that. It is an excellent example of Boeing's smaller jets on non-traditional city pairs theory that is often cited in the endless Airbus vs. Boeing arguments here.

Hope that clears it up.

 
Stretch 8
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:32 am

Doesn't BA have service from Cleveland to LHR? If not, it must be the ONLY major U.S. city without a BA presence. Tokyo and Frankfurt? It will never happen.
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
N766UA
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:35 am

Nope. No BA Stretch.
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MAH4546
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:41 am

Stretch 8, Minneapolis is the largest BA-less US city.
a.
 
nwa man
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RE: Mah4546

Tue Apr 16, 2002 11:28 am

Mah4546-
Just to clarify, MSP is the largest metro area not served by BA, not the largest city. Referring to the 2000 census, I believe MSP is only the 45th largest city in America, smaller than other cities without BA like MKE, IND, MSY and yes, I believe, Cleveland.


NWA Man
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MAH4546
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 11:40 am

NWA Man, yes, that is correct. When I refer to city I usually mean metro, and metro area population is the figure most commonly used for almost every purpose (market size most importantly, television market size, sport franchise catchment area, viability for a new route to London, etc.). City proper population means nothing. The largest "city" in the US without BA is San Antonio.
a.
 
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yyz717
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 11:45 am

I agree with Heavymetal.

CLE-LGW is a great example of a large hub/gateway bypass, a small hub builder, and the continued fracturing of the TA market.

The rest is up to CLE residents......make CLE-LGW work yearround and then CO will up the gauge, then later this decade perhaps CDG, FRA, AMS.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:12 pm

LGW, I enjoyed your ignorance. Why do you care what aircraft is used? CO uses the plane it uses for one reason-TO TRY TO MAKE A PROFIT!!! You don't run a 777 in a market that won't fill the seats for it. So it's boring to you-I don't think CO ran the flight to get you thrilled about anything, they're running it to make a profit.

Soku39, UA didn't leave primarily because the city was a pain in the ass-which is a correct definition of life for airlines, particlarly under Mike White. UA left primarily because Chicago is like the #2 business market in the nation, behind only New York. If you had to pick between ORD to make a hub and CLE, I'd even pick ORD, despite being a native Clevelander!

And Stretch8, your old jokes aside, CLE-FRA IS a possibility-they're both in the heart of major industrial areas, and it would be a good fit if the CLE hub can expand. I don't think NRT is a possibility in the near future-maybe within 10 years, depending on everything that happens-might be a good market for a Sonic Cruiser!! I still think AMS and CDG are also possible-IF CO can build up the hub over 400 trips a day in the next few years, which all hinges on the success of dual runway operations.
 
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yyz717
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:29 pm

The big 'danger' to CO growing the CLE hub, is its proximity to EWR. Look on a map of the US.....EWR and CLE are close neighbours.

Any future downturn or rationalization could see CO axe the CLE hub simply because it's too close to EWR. Hope it doesn't happen of course. The CLE city fathers can help prevent this by improving CLE airport infrastructure.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:38 pm

Okay Stretch, now its on. You can talk about the river being on fire all you want (hell, I wasn't even alive then), but when you knock the Indians you've gone to far!

Incidentally, where are you from?
 
BA777
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 3:27 pm

She's due in in 10mins  Big thumbs up

BA777
 
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airzim
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 7:12 pm

YYZ,

CLE and EWR are two different hubs.

CLE is a East-West hub. EWR is more North-South, Europe and point to point to New York.

EWR is basically at capacity. No reason to feed someone from BOS to PHX over EWR when you can do the same thing over CLE. Leave the seats from BOS-EWR and EWR-PHX for higher yield O&D traffic.

I bet some day, CLE will be a bigger hub (in number of departures) then EWR. Did you know that there are more CO Express pilots than mainline? Express is going to be bigger than CO in size of fleet and CLE is poised to take full advantage of that.

 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 7:38 pm

A 757 on the route right?

Any chance of a 762 if the demands get higher?

ArsenalLHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:35 pm

Arsenal@LHR, I think you might see a 762 if CO can renegotiate landing fees with the City of Cleveland. Right now, CLE has the THRID HIGHEST landing fees in the United States, which is an absolute joke. If those fees could be cut be $1 or $2 per 1000lb landing weight, you might see an a 762. But right now, with landing fees at $4 per 1000lb, that isn't going to happen. (CVG's landing fees are around $1 per 1000lbs as a comparison).

If the hub could ever get to the 400 flight level, it might even be possible to run a 762 in off-peak season (Oct-March), and a 764 from April-September. But that's getting ahead of ourselves.
 
Stretch 8
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:46 am

Flykid: I am originally from Detroit. And yes, I know the Tigers are 0-11.

Does CO still operate D10s across the pond? Anyone remember when CO was known as "The Proud Bird with the Golden Tail"?
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
Guest

RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Wed Apr 17, 2002 1:14 am

Continental isn't operating anymore DC-10s. If they are its in their pacific operations. Atlantic is all boeing now. I would like to see CLE-LGW be upgraded to 767 service, but right now I am just happy we have the route at all.

I hope the airport fees are get lowered. CVG puts CLE to shame in terms of EVERYTHING! I don't see why CLE has to be so expensive. As a fellow Clevelander I hope to see the airport expand, as long as it doesn't take down my house.

About BA...I would much rather see Virgin in CLE than BA.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Wed Apr 17, 2002 4:30 am

FYI....CO has retired their entire fleet of DC-10 aircraft.
All longhaul routes are being operated by B-777s as well as B-767-200 and B-767-400 aircraft. The B-757-200 is being used on select international routes as well.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:47 am

Well Stretch, you took all my ammo. I guess you win.

Since the 767 has come up in question. CO's 767-200 have a capacity of 25/149 for a total of 174. CO's 757-200's have a capacity of 24/159 for a total of 183. Many people are wondering if they will upgrade to a 767 on that route. Well, it looks like a 767 would actually be a downgrade. Until I looked I had no idea that there 752's had more capacity than their 762's.

 
David_itl
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:54 am


Aren't the transatlantic 757-200s configuation 16/156 making 172?

David/MAN
 
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STT757
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Wed Apr 17, 2002 7:41 am

The Trans-Atlantic 757s are configured 172 which is just about the same as the 767-200, the difference being that that 767-200 has more Business First seats and much more cargo room and longer range.

However the 767-200 is much heavier than a 757-200, and as someone mentioned previously the City of Cleveland has the 2nd highest landing fees in the Country at CLE. And if the charged by the weight of the aircraft it would be sufficiently more economical to fly a 757 instead of the 767-200 because it has (vitualy) the same seating capacity as a 767-200 at a fraction of the costs to operate out of CLE.

Unless the City of CLE lowers the landing fees and/or if cargo revenues for this route go through the roof the 757-200 is the best way to go CLE-LGW.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Alpha 1
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Wed Apr 17, 2002 11:08 am

FrequentFlyKid, remember that the BusinessFirst 757-200 hold 16-156 for a total of 172, only 2 less total than the 767-200, which are ALL B-First config. But the diff is those 9 extra B-First seats on the 762. CO still doesn't think it can fill those 25 seats out of CLE at this juncture, so that, along with the landing fees, and that's why the 757 is a better fit for the route right now.
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:24 pm

That's my point guys.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Wed Apr 17, 2002 3:28 pm

I'm from Detroit too, but I think Cleveland is a nicer city. Detroit must be the biggest American City without a Hard Rock Cafe, Cleveland at least has that and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

What about San Antonio? Isnt that one of the largest cities without BA presence? I thought San Antonio had 1,000,000 people
 
jetskipper
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Thu Apr 18, 2002 12:00 am

There are two ways to evaluate city population...population within city limits, and metropolitan area. A lot of older large cities actually have very few people living within the actual city limits (usually due to the poor living conditions), however their surrounding suburbs may be very heavily populated. Clevelands metropolitan population as of 1990 was 2,200,000. More modern cities like SAT, CMH, SAT, AUS, may appear to have large populations because of the amount of people living within the city limits, however have relatively fewer people living in the outskirts.
 
707guy
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Thu Apr 18, 2002 12:34 am

In regards to Jetlink having more pilots than mainline CO, I read recently that CO is looking to offload Jetlink. Don't know to who or if the name would be changed. As far as the airport goes - the new mayor made the airport expansion her #2 project behind the city budget. She has appointed new managers to the project and got the contractor to agree to get the new runway finished by the end of this year. The city also is changing the way gate space is leased to airlines. In the past an airline that paid to use gate space was allowed to deny use of that gate to any other airline when the paying airline was not using it. The city is taking that right away and trying to make more gate space available. I'd say things are looking up. It's not easy to reverse bad habits and neglect quickly!
 
thomacf
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Thu Apr 18, 2002 12:53 am

When looking at pop. you have to look at the metro area. ATL is smaller than CLE and many other cities if you just look at the cities pop. We all know however that the ATL area is one of the most populated areas in the country. Northeast Ohio's pop. is right around 3 million. MSP is getting close to that, but I know it isn't as big. The CLE area is highest populated area that BA doesn't serve in the US. Airlines look at the demographics of the whole region like all other businesses that look to start in an area. CLE is an older city and did not annex it's suburbs iand include them in the cities pop. This is why many cities like IND, CMH and San Antonio seem bigger on paper, but are truly less than half the size when you look at the big picture.
 
N766UA
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707GUY

Thu Apr 18, 2002 4:18 am

Jetlink was made seperate a couple of months ago and is now ExpressJet Airlines.
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deltairlines
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Thu Apr 18, 2002 4:44 am

Hey LGW, I wouldn't mind having a CO 757 here at Boston on a regular basis, all I see are 737s (and the occasional ERJ-145 from CLE).

I think that CLE has good potential for Continental. It has a strong catchment area (not just the Cleveland Metro Area, but as far away from Erie). Is the 757 the right plane at this time for CLE-LGW? Yes. First off, this is the first intercontinental route from CLE for Continental and they need to build it up. Will it help by having people from the Midwest connect in CLE rather than EWR? Yes, but a good portion will be how much the locals use the route instead of flying US to PIT/PHL, etc.

Jeff
 
che
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RE: CO Resumes CLE-LGW Today, 15 April

Thu Apr 18, 2002 5:46 am

Its nice to see it back again. We now have our nonstop to LGW. Hopefully it will be successfull is the future and air travel inCleveland will continue to grow.

I think peolpe will fly it. The flight should be full in the summer its only a 757.

Its great to see the effects of 9-11 slowly going away any things looking better.

che

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