Jer32382
Topic Author
Posts: 297
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:35 am

Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:17 am

I was readinng through some posts on another forum and I came across a psot in which a Delta 757/767 captain said there was rumor that Delta could possibly be getting the A340-500 for "ultra long haul" routes. However, with Delta's earnings announcement is this just a dream now? Interested to hear some people shed some light on this.
 
captainAD
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:01 am

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:35 am

Delta has a contract with Boeing... they will NOT be getting any Airbus aircraft... glad to see that an American airline (gasp) supports American industry
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:41 am

Delta has a contract with Boeing, but no exclusive agreement. Boeing undid that clause due to threats from the EU. Delta is not particularly happy with service from Boeing at the moment, and the 767-400's are already showing significant stress on the wings.

Anything could happen.
 
gerardo
Posts: 3372
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:45 am

Perhaps all European airlines should do the same and support European industry, like for example AF, BA, SAS, LH, AZ, Ryanair, Easyjet, KLM and so on.
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:48 am

The rumor has been floated here and there but common sense dictates that the B777-200LR is the better choice. There are all kinds of rumors that spread like wildfire. Only a tiny percentage ever turn out to be true. Remember that.

Ordering an Airbus product would cause something of a rift in the relationship between Delta and Boeing, and as it is, the relationship between Delta and Airbus is for the most part nonexistent.

Delta has been looking at the B777-200LR and I suspect that when the time comes for a decision to be made on any ultra longhaul aircraft for the airline, the B777 derivatives will be the choice.

I don't think Delta really can justify more than 10, maybe as many as 14 or 15 B777-200LRs. The -232ER currently operated by Delta is the heaviest version of the 772ER available and can fly up to 7600 nautical miles nonstop (usually about 7200 with typical mission rules), which is more than enough for any existing route in the Delta system, as well as some significant expansion, such as JFK-DXB nonstop, JFK-BOM nonstop, and JFK-NRT nonstop.

Routes such as ATL-HKG, ATL-BOM, ATL-JNB, which start to get to the point where the 772ER will be taking weight restrictions, are routes where a 772LR might be a good choice.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
scottysair
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:21 am

Yeah, I would rather do think about that with B777-200LR will be longer-range nonstop from ATL-HKG, ATL-PEK, ATL-CPT-JNB, ATL-BOM, and anywhere will do with an nonstop on the flight and however, how about Delta will be fly new nonstop to SYD?!?! Any clue?? Thanks!
 
donder10
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:27 am

ATL-SYD is 9285 miles great-circle.I dont even the 772LR could do that nonstop especially Westbound.I can see DL ordering 6-8 772LRs down the line 8,but not till the 'economic recovery' is more substantiated.
 
luisca
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:54 am

Jrlander:
"767-400's are already showing significant stress on the wings"

were did you get that from, could you explain sor show proff that delta actually said that it was anoid with boeing and had problems with the 767-400, if so, why doesnt continental, witch uses it on longer routs have any problems, I find your post hard to believe.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
mikeymike
Posts: 402
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:59 am

Luisca....you beat me to the punch!
 
Areopagus
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Topic: RE: KLM Buys Boeing, Airbus

Wed Apr 17, 2002 7:55 am

Ordering an Airbus product would cause something of a rift in the relationship between Delta and Boeing,

What could Boeing do about it? Threaten to not offer such good deals in the future? That would drive Delta more toward Airbus.

and as it is, the relationship between Delta and Airbus is for the most part nonexistent.

I'm sure Airbus would love to remedy that.
 
scottysair
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:07 pm

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 7:56 am

Will seen about one-stop from ATL-DFW-SYD flight on B777-200LR flight and it should be do that as for passengers and else about want to do something as for the good Delta flight will get an new nonstop as for longer-range flight. I think rumors as for you guys will be had to fly on the new routes from ATL-TLV, ATL-SVO, CVG-NRT, CVG-PEK flight. Are you planning will got an good idea as for the people. Thanks!
 
Areopagus
Posts: 1327
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Topic: RE: KLM Buys Boeing, Airbus

Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:29 am

ScottysAir, would you please restate that in English? Thank you.
 
BWIrwy4
Posts: 877
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:32 am

Areopagus, would you please see this thread? Thank you.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/208305/4/
 
Areopagus
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 12:31 pm

Topic: RE: KLM Buys Boeing, Airbus

Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:05 am

OK, I've read it. I have compassion for you. But I still can't understand what you wrote. If that's OK with you, it's OK with me.
 
wingman
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:24 am

Hey Gerardo, the European airlines already support Airbus ten times more than their American counterparts support Boeing. Want the proof, check the numbers of frames each has sold to the opposite continent over the past ten years. You must be joking. Americans may be more obvious in their political interference, but the Europeans are the undisputed masters of that particular game.
 
Staffan
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:29 am

Wingman, I'd love to see some numbers on that!

 
dragogoalie
Posts: 1172
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:43 am

Actually I heard that Deltas gonna go with the Cessna 152 for the ultra long haul routes... Wink/being sarcastic

--dragogoalie-#88--
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
Guest

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 11:05 am

Wingman, don't turn this into an A vs. B war. However, I would have to agree with Staffan in saying where are the "numbers" that you have.?

Also, carriers don't primarily go for Boeing because they are American, or Airbus because they are European, they go one way or the other because of cost!

The bottom line is that cost matters more to the airlines than almost anything else. It's the same reason why I'll buy an import car if the cost is low enough. I perfer American cars but I would buy an import in a second if it was cheap enough.

Take Care,
National_757
 
transswede
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 11:25 am

>the European airlines already support Airbus ten times
>more than their American counterparts support Boeing

Wingman, add me to the crowd of people who would like to see you back up your claim with hard facts.

Unless you are at a NW or UA hub, seeing an Airbus aircraft in most US aiports is a relative rarity. Not so for Boeing in Europe.
 
MD88Captain
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 11:44 am

Before September 11th DAL was looking at the best long-range airplane for the future. Something that could fill some very long routes. Fred Reid, DAL's #2 man, mentioned the Airbus 340 as a possible fit along with the Sonic Criuser, 777 and a long range 747 type. Even then nothing was going to happen soon. Now (after 9-11) it will not happen at all. DAL will not add capacity until the industry consolidates, until DAL is very protfitable and can project future profits. In other words, DAL will not be buying Airbus or Boeing in the forseeable future.
 
usairways85
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 11:45 am

not to be arguing against your point, but at an us airways hub you see nothing but airbus
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: Jrlander

Wed Apr 17, 2002 11:52 am

I also await an explanation about the "significant" stress on the 767-400 wings.

But. The 767-400 is not an ultra long range aircraft by any stretch of the imagination. In regards to that issue, I doubt that DL has need for a 8000 nm range aircraft. For that matter, I doubt that any airline does. ATL-SYD/JNB/HKG etc are just too long to make sense. Just my opinion though.

I figure any flight longer than 6 hours is too damn long to be stuck in a dry, stuffy airplane. I'll take the stops where I can get off the airplane and look around a little.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 11:55 am

If Boeing does not get some new products with new technology they will see more and more carriers going Airbus.

As for the 764, is that true ?. I know its selling bad but could that be a reason ?
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:08 pm

This is definitely an exercise in futility given both DL's current economic state and DL's route structure. I don't see that DL (at least in the next 20years) will have any great need for a large fleet of 777's. They currently have 8 and will only take enough to replace the MD11's.

Most of DL's international routes cannot support a 777. Of course, LHR access would necessitate ordering a few more but overall I expect DL's 777 fleet to remain quite small. DL currently has the smallest 777 of the four US carriers that operate the 777 and I expect it will remain that way for a while.

As for long range 777's, I'm not sure what routes DL would use them on. ATL-JNB is better served by SAA, ATL-HKG doesn't really have enough demand, ATL-SYD definitely doesn't have enough demand.
 
RJ_Delta
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:13 pm

Delta will not buy Airbus planes. They have a contract with Boeing and for the ultra longhaul the best option is the Boeing 777-200LR.

RJ_Delta.
 
Dazed767
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RE: Airbus For Delta?...Aeropagus

Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:35 pm

Scottysair is hard of hearing, and speaks in ASL (if you havent' seen many of the other posts about it). I just can't see DL going airbus again after the A310, but who knows. 772LR would be a more practical choice though.
 
DeltaSFO
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Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:40 pm

This is definitely an exercise in futility given both DL's current economic state and DL's route structure. I don't see that DL (at least in the next 20years) will have any great need for a large fleet of 777's. They currently have 8 and will only take enough to replace the MD11's.

Most of DL's international routes cannot support a 777. Of course, LHR access would necessitate ordering a few more but overall I expect DL's 777 fleet to remain quite small. DL currently has the smallest 777 of the four US carriers that operate the 777 and I expect it will remain that way for a while.

As for long range 777's, I'm not sure what routes DL would use them on. ATL-JNB is better served by SAA, ATL-HKG doesn't really have enough demand, ATL-SYD definitely doesn't have enough demand.


FlyPNS1, do you have some data to substantiate your post?

Most of the information I have indicates the opposite of what you've said.

DL's current economic state, while not the best, leaves the airline well positioned for future profitability. The airline expects to return to profitability in Q2 2002.

Prior to September 11, Delta made it very clear that they had a severe shortage of high capacity longhaul aircraft. Several Latin American markets suffered temporary downgrades from MD-11 equipment to B767 when Delta inaugurated JFK-TLV, JFK-CAI-DXB service and went ahead with their usual European equipment upgrades for the summer.

The B777 program at Delta has been hampered by the consequences of the inability of the company and ALPA to agree on a payscale and working conditions for the aircraft back in 1999. Lack of demand for the aircraft at Delta is certainly not the driving factor.

A few years ago it became apparent that Delta was beginning to outgrow the 763ER and I think it's clear that it's time for a change. Most ATL-Europe routes and the ATL-Brazil runs are ready for an equipment upgrade. Traffic, both cargo and passengers, is more than the 767 can handle, even in this post-9/11 era. The problem is that there are only 23 international aircraft larger than the 763ER in the Delta fleet. Too many markets, not enough airplanes.

DL does indeed have the smallest fleet of 777s out of the four U.S. based operators, but I doubt that will be the case five years from now.

DL has been pretty open about wanting to operate ATL-JNB on its own as well as the clear shift in Asia flying from PDX/LAX-Asia to JFK/ATL-Asia. There is a large market for ATL-HKG as well as other Asian markets, as ATL would draw feed from every market east of the Mississippi River, including the Atlantic Seaboard. Delta has the critical mass of flyers out east necessary to make service like that work.

I don't think Delta will ever fly more than maybe 14 of these airplanes, realistically more like 6 or 8. But there is a market there and Delta would be stupid not to look at it. They're not stupid, though.

As for the question of 777-200ERs, they need more and they will get more. It's simply a matter of time.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 3:18 pm

What relationship does Delta have with Airbus? The only Airbus's that Delta ever owned were second hand A310s from Pan Am that they disposed of within 6 years or so
 
kevoc3
Posts: 44
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 3:23 pm

While Delta did post a large first quarter loss, they did post a profit in March (who knows how much). That is a good sign though. Things are returning to normal. They just need to return the airfares back to a reasonable level to make some money. When they begin to regain their bank, we will see an order for more widebodies that was exected pre-9/11. We should only hope that is Boeing vs. Airjunk ie. the A-310's. Buy airplanes from a company that is not subsidized but the government!
 
sterne82
Posts: 394
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RE: KevOC3

Wed Apr 17, 2002 4:59 pm

"Buy airplanes from a company that is not subsidized but the government"

No comments, the end of your post is too ridiculous to be taken seriously...

 
User avatar
RayChuang
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:07 pm

I seriously doubt DL will buy the A340-500.

The reason is simple: it would be too costly in terms of maintainance and crew training, given that the plane would be an orphan in DL's fleet.

I think it's much more likely that DL will buy maybe another 15-17 772ER's and possibly up to 12 772LR's for longer-range flights from JFK and ATL.
 
T prop
Posts: 910
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:33 pm

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:26 pm

James Lander,

Where are you getting this kind of info about the 764's wings? What do you mean by "and the 767-400's are already showing significant stress on the wings."


I've looked at your profile and your previous posts and I'm guessing you work for them. If you do, and that's your name in your profile do you think it's wise to start such rumours unless you have some way to prove this?

T prop.
 
Delta737
Posts: 469
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:33 pm

Oh no, not again!

Delta, as far as I know as an employee is NOT buying the Airbus.

Airbus will occasionally send representatives out to Atlanta to sell the aircraft and generally leave reams of manuals to pursuade the decision-making.

As far as I've been told, the boxes with the manuals and performance data pretty much get brushed to the side after the reps leave.

Delta is not and will not purchase the Airbus unless there is some DRASTIC managerial change.

*That's* where the rumor eminates from.

Heck, if you're *considering* starting an airline, I betchya Airbus would send reps to come talk to you as well as Boeing.

And about the HUGE loss, if you read the actual numbers, the accounting firm added-in depreciation costs of equipment to make the loss look worse (for a variety of short-term reasons unfortunately).

Doug Taylor
jetcareers.com

 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 7:57 pm

Wingman, I also would like to see some facts or figures. But I fear you cannot provide them simply because your statement is just not true...

By the way, counting air frames is not the best way, as B747s and B777s are slightly more expensive than B737s and especially the B747 has found a nice home in Europe in contrast to the US...

And one more thing: if people all over the world would think on that "buy only our own products" level then the US Economy would suffer severly...


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Joni
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:19 pm


The 772LR program was recently pushed back, and Airbus is looking at snatching the only customer. So, it's by no means certain the 772LR will fly.

There is also the issue of ETOPS in the NA-SYD flights. If the diversion airfields aren't near enough to the great circle route, the 772 would have to fly a longer route, and if the diversion airfields (which are often small) are closed due to weather, then the 772LR flight gets cancelled but the 345 gets a go-ahead.

If it makes sense for Delta to buy the 345, they'll do so regardless of their relationship with Boeing. We've seen many previously all-Boeing airlines opt to buy Airbus products. Even El Al would have wanted to buy the 332.

There's been no word from either company about a possible order, so this is just a rumour. But it isn't as unbelievable as some people here seem to think.

 
keesje
Posts: 8747
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:58 pm

IMO :

Delta has a very large fleet of 767 operating on the Atlantic. They are not exactly up to date & won't fly forever.

They will have to start replacing some in the next decade. Sonic Cruiser will not be available / efficient on the Atlantic.


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Delta profs will compare economics of new A330-200/300 and alternative new B767 300/400ER' s.

The results of these calculations ? Well, ask around ...

At that time a LR requirement will not automatically be filled in by 777 LR. Apart from range, ETOPS plays a role in the city pairs I saw in previous reply's ..

Oh yeah, forget loyalty to Boeing / Airbus, hard nosed airlines like DL don't work like that ...

Keesje
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 1:33 am

T prop:

I do not work for Delta, though I am a big fan of the airline. A close, close friend of mine works for Delta Tech Ops, and has shared his and others within Delta dissatisfaction with Boeing customer service as of late.

As for the 767-400, he has also said that the wings are showing more wear and tear than should be expected for an airframe of its age. He suggested that the 767-400 might be the next MD-90 (ie requiring far too much maintenance for such a young aircraft). There is no safety issue here. There is no official statement or position from the airline, just the dissatisfaction on the part of some employees.
 
fsuwxman
Posts: 435
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 2:06 am

hmmm...I wonder what an A340-500 would look like in the Deltaflot livery...
ASOS... Another Shi#y Observation Station
 
KAUSpilot
Posts: 1659
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 4:08 am

I doubt delta will take any airbus in the near future, but it would be interesting if it happened.
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 5:16 am

Honestly "Jrlander"
I think that your post is BS and that you are making up a story to cover for your first post. next time you post in airliners.net remember that you are not talking to people who dont know about aviation but with people who are very experienced in the subject. also, I dont think that costumer service by boeing would be overlooked for an airline wich is its third largest buyer.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
DeltaSFO
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

RE: Joni

Thu Apr 18, 2002 5:51 am

The 772LR program was recently pushed back, and Airbus is looking at snatching the only customer. So, it's by no means certain the 772LR will fly.

There is also the issue of ETOPS in the NA-SYD flights. If the diversion airfields aren't near enough to the great circle route, the 772 would have to fly a longer route, and if the diversion airfields (which are often small) are closed due to weather, then the 772LR flight gets cancelled but the 345 gets a go-ahead.

If it makes sense for Delta to buy the 345, they'll do so regardless of their relationship with Boeing. We've seen many previously all-Boeing airlines opt to buy Airbus products. Even El Al would have wanted to buy the 332.

There's been no word from either company about a possible order, so this is just a rumour. But it isn't as unbelievable as some people here seem to think.


I don't think the 772LR program is in dire straits quite yet. I think the 772LR program is simply waiting for another customer or two until the go-ahead is given. Any number of airlines could be that customer. Delta, American, and several Asian airlines have expressed interest.

All things being equal, and assuming both models do become available, I think the prudent thing for Delta to do would be to choose the derivative of what they already operate, and that would be the 772LR. The commonality is there, it's the same type rating as the 772ER, and the twin engine economics are unbeatable, especially on flights that long.

Yes, ETOPS does become an issue on flights from the East Coast to SYD, but I don't think Delta is ready to try to go into Australia yet. If and when Delta does attempt an Australia service, I think their only choice is to do it from LAX. Most of the business ties between Australia and the United States center around California. And LAX-SYD can be operated by Delta's existing 777-232ER fleet with ETOPS 180 certification. So I don't think that's a target market for the 772LR.

I agree with your statement that if it simply makes more sense for Delta to buy the A340-500, they will do so. This is a business first and foremost, and if it's a better overall decision to do that, one would hope that Delta would do that. Unfortunately things aren't that simple. Delta has publicly committed to Boeing (737, 757/767, 777) and Bombardier (CRJ) as their sole aircraft suppliers. While Delta is not legally bound to the terms of the Fleet Renewal Agreement they entered into with Boeing some time back, there exists an unspoken agreement by both companies to abide by the terms of the agreement. Delta will buy only from Boeing, and Boeing will give Delta good deals.

Despite Airbus' desire to sell something to Delta, Delta does have an existing business relationship with Boeing and that will definitely be a factor in any decision Delta makes, whether everybody here wants to admit that or not. Everybody talks about the big things like type ratings, fleet commonality, and the like, but for every big thing, there are little things like:

-parts support
-maintenance tooling
-maintenance training
-ground support staff training
-ground support equipment
-terminal capabilities
-cost of insurance
-flight crew training (both cockpit and cabin crew)

In most of these categories, Delta's status as a current 777 operator makes the 772LR a better choice. Delta is heavy into Boeing products, and for Delta's particular needs, it's probably best to stay that way.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 5:56 am

Luisca:

I'm sorry that you felt that my first post was "BS". You don't have to believe me. However, please don't assume things about me. I am well aware that people on the forum are extremely experienced in this area. My point, in any event, is that not everything is perfectly rosey between Boeing and Delta and that anything is possible. Note I use the word possible.... not probably or likely. I wouldn't have any idea about that. My friend in Tech Ops is not involved in fleet renewal, and would have no idea whether or not Delta is or will talk to Airbus regarding the A340-500 or any other planes.

What I do know is that my friend is constantly complaining about having to work with Boeing on projects. I know that he has told me about he and others being suprised with the wear and tear on the 767-400's. You may notice that I do live in Atlanta.... the hometown of Delta. Furthermore I am also studying to be a priest. In seminary we learn to be honest, forthright, at the same time respecting other people's dignity.

Next time you come to the states... e-mail me and I'll be happy to meet you so that you can actually meet me before making allegations regarding my honesty.
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 8:17 am

no hard fellings, I just find it hard to belive that boeing would not try to keep their relationship with delta extremely good. sorry if I made you fell bad.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
Guest

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 8:26 am

I think that Delta will stick to ordering more new 777-200ERs with RR Trent 800s instead of the GE90 777-200LR to save money on spare parts.
 
transswede
Posts: 969
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 9:30 am

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 9:13 am

Delta can't even seem to keep their current and on order 772ER's busy (they tried to defer deliveries and lease to SAA), so I don't see them ordering either the 772LR or A345 anytime soon.
 
redngold
Posts: 6673
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 9:22 am

Going back to "Boeing loyalty"....

What about Continental Airlines? They're flying almost all Boeing aircraft now, with the exception of an aging group of MD-82/83s. If Boeing made an RJ, they probably would have taken it over Embraer!

redngold
Up, up and away!
 
2cn
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:30 pm

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 9:46 am

TransSwede- they are keeping their current 777s busy. If I remember what was said at the time, they wanted to defer the orders due to economical reasons- not that they could not use them. They could've made some money by leasing them to SAA instead of taking the hit on paying for the planes right now during this downturn.
 
wingman
Posts: 2793
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 10:43 am

No time to do the exact numbers, but simply adding the numbers from UA, AW, NW, JB, US, Fedex, UPS etc., the trend to me indicates that US airlines buy from whomever they please whereas outside of BA in Europe, Boeing sales are paltry in comparison. Come on guys, LH and IB alone haven't made a significant Boeing order in ages, some bogus cargo orders here, some union 757s for IB there. By and large, and to a much much greater extent than US lines and Boeing, Euro lines order Airbus. Call it what you will but anyone who thinks politics isn't at play in a significant way is completely naive. Airbus and the EU aren't so innocent. IB's talk of the 777 as a 742 replacement is a complete joke and everyone knows it. LH won't order Boeing's for the next 20 years (they indirectly imply in their magazine that 777s are unsafe aircraft), AF sure orders some token Boeings but only because they despise RR and SNECMA gets the engine sale with GE. SAS probably gone for good, Alitalia mucho parla but nothing ever happens. Now look at the US counterparts and what do you see? I just have to wonder why Boeing doesn't get a fair shake in Europe the way Airbus does here. What is going on under the surface?
 
MD88Captain
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 11:07 am

Actually I've heard exactly what JRLander has posted. That is that DAL in very unhappy with the recent "nickel and diming" that BA has been doing on parts and servicing. That particular rumour has been filtering down to the line pilots over the last few months.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Airbus For Delta?

Thu Apr 18, 2002 11:49 am

I wish I was as optimistic about DL's future int'l growth as you are, DeltaSFO. However, I'm not.

DL does NOT expect to be profitable in Qtr 2. Here's a quote: The company expects "a second quarter loss significantly lower than the first quarter loss, but a loss nonetheless," chief financial officer M. Michele Burns told analysts Tuesday in a conference call.

I'm not denying DL will need some 777's. They'll definitely need 15 to replace the MD11 plus maybe five more for growth. That would be 20+8 which would be 28. If DL were to someday get LHR access, you could add a few more 777's. Still far less than UA or AA and maybe less than CO depending upon how many more 777's CO picks up.

As for the demand for 777's, there's a few schools of thought. Any int'l expansion out of BOS will be done with the 763 since this market is too small. CVG might need a 777 for LGW and CDG, but CVG doesn't really present much opportunity for int'l expansion...maybe a flight to FCO with AZ codeshare.

Most of the JFK flights can't support a 777 except the CDG and continuing service to BOM. I also think there's a big question mark on JFK's future. AA and CO are looking to expand internationally out of NYC and looking to put the squeeze on DL. AA's not building that giant new terminal for the heck of it, meanwhile DL's is on indefinite delay.

ATL could use a few more 777's but there's a problem with using 777's to Europe. Europe is very seasonal and while DL can easily fill a 777 in the summer, many of those markets would be unprofitable in the winter with a 777. The only routes in South America that could justify the 777 would be GRU and maybe GIG.

As for Asia, good luck. DL can't even make LAX-NRT or JFK-NRT work (I'll admit JFK-NRT's failure isn't all DL's fault). I think the expense of flying ATL-HKG will be too high and it will be easier to route people through ICN on KE. That's what codeshares are all about. ATL-JNB falls into the same category...too expensive to operate when you have a codeshare partner who can do it for you.

Maybe you'll prove me wrong and I hope you do. I'd love to see DL back in places like HKG, but I guess I'm just more realistic.

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