9V-SPK
Topic Author
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Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 12:31 am

Singapore Airlines are under investigation of launching Singapore - Hong Kong - Seoul after the launch of Singapore - Hong Kong - Las Vegas on the 2nd August.

If everything is on track the route will be launched in the Mid-2003. Also as i mentioned before, SQ are still considering Moscow and Tel Aviv (Not sure if there will be any stops between both of them) but seems it won't likely to happen after 4-5 years.

Seems that Hong Kong is getting more and more important to SQ and really a big hub for them. Though i'm a bit dissapointed of SQ downgraded HKG-TPE v.v to a B772, but it's resonable as they only have 1% share on this route and today while looking through the bookings I saw 12F 4J 98Y left on SQ870. Oh well...

Best Regards
 
sabena_A340
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 12:39 am

Ready to bring the soccer team to the world cup!

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

 
Airbus A3XX
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 12:44 am

Wow~!
So is SQ trying to making Hong Kong into another Singapore?
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 12:51 am

The route between HKG and SIN is a very busy one because of 1) the large number of Chinese who fly this route and 2) because both cities are major business centers, so business traffic is generally quite strong.

Also, SQ has a strong presence in HKG because of the SQ 001/002 flight route (SIN-HKG-SFO-HKG-SIN), probably SQ's most profitable flight (more so than SIN-LHR) because of the HKG-SFO-HKG traffic. That is why I expect SQ to fly the A380-800 on this route by the spring of 2006.
 
hkg82
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 1:12 am

If the SIN-HKG-ICN route is launched, then SQ would have a significant presence in Hong Kong, as they already do SIN-HKG-SFO, SIN-HKG-TPE and later in the year SIN-HKG-LAS.

Is traffic between HKG-SFO really that busy to say that SIN-HKG-SFO is probably SQ's most profitable route?

Hkg82.

 
odie
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 1:15 am

Why is it that SIA can obtain so many fifth freedom rights out of Hong Kong where as MAS have been struggling to get it but unable to do so? I don't think CX operate flights out of SIN to another thrid country or am I wrong?
 
Singapore 777
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 1:21 am

CX operates HKG-SIN-CGK and HKG-BKK-SIN.
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 1:26 am

CX has 14 fifth-freedom flights: 7 to Jakarta, and 7 to Bangkok. SQ has 10: 7 to San Francisco, and 3 to Taipei; there will be 3 additional when Las Vegas comes on line. In terms of number of flights, CX has the advantage. But in terms of revenue opportunities, SQ has the advantage because of the longer flights to SFO. SQ also has the overall advantage in the HKG-SIN market as SQ offers more non-stop flights and more B744 flights.
 
hkg82
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 1:44 am

Odie:
What routes is MAS trying to operate out of Hong Kong? How long have they been trying to get the fifth freedom rights?

Can any airline request for fifth freedom rights out of Chek Lap Kok or does an aviation pact have to be signed first between Hong Kong and the other country?

Thanks,
Hkg82.

 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 1:53 am

Hong Kong Aviation authority are quite stingy in giving out fifth-freedom rights to other airlines, espically for those less economically advanced countries. Since CX has not been interested in using fifth-freedom rights out of KUL, that's why MH has not been able to get any out of HKG. TG and CI are the two of the largest fifth-freedom operators out of HKG. It also happens that BKK and TPE are the two CX destinations with the most fifth-freedom rights.
 
bkkair
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 2:05 am

Regarding profibility of SQ's routes, I did a non-scientific study in my CRS for the next 7 days of the following SQ routes and looked at First and Business class loading ( which is where they make their profits):

SIN-LHR - 21 flights (3x daily) 6 of 21 sold out in F class, 8 of 21 in J

LAX-TPE 7 flights ( 1x daily) 5 of 7 sold out in F, 1 of 7 in J
LAX-NRT 7 flights (1x daily) 3 of 7 sold out in F, 1 of 7 in J

SFO-HKG 7 flights ( 1x daily) 3 of 7 sold out in F, 3 of 7 in J
SFO-ICN 7 flights ( 1 x daily on 343) none of the flights are sold out in F or J (money loser?)

It looks like all their ultra-long flights are doing very well in F and J. ( except SFO-ICN).
Which route is most profitable must be SIN-LHR but it would be very hard to tell unless we had "inside" yield numbers from SQ.

Also noticed in looking at schedules, CX take :50 minutes longer from SFO-HKG on the 340 vs. SQ on the 744.

Another question that maybe someone can answer: SQ operate 3 daily SIN-LHR, 2 daytime and 1 nighttime departure. The only flight that is always full is the nighttime departure. Why would SQ schedule 2 daylight flights when most people prefer a night departure? They might be losing passengers to BA/QF on this route.
 
odie
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 2:36 am

Hkg82: MAS is trying to operate trans-Pacific services from Hong Kong. If I am not mistaken, they wanted to operate to Taiwan as well from Hong Kong. They have been asking these rights for quite a while ago, I think like 5-7 years ago. I don't think it's because of another country since SIA already flies HKG-SFO.

Dynkrisolo: Yea, I got what you mean. Malaysia were once like that, but now they are trying to open up the skies in order for them to make KUL a hub. Look at the Virgin! They have fifth freedom rights at KUL for their flights to Sydney even though it's a code-share with MAS! BA/QF all have fifth freedom rights at KUL, but none of them currently being utilized since they don't even have flights there! Malaysia have an liberal civil aviation agreement with Thailand, but not to the extent of fifth freedom rights!

By the way, when CX used to operate 3 times daily to KUL and MAS only operate like 12 weekly services to Hong Kong, the Malaysian government still allows CX to fly 3 times daily. And I think CX do have rights to operate between KUL and Penang, a right that is very hard to obtain considering it's a domestic service!

regards.
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 3:13 am

CX does not have full pickup right between KUL and Penang. They only have stopover traffic right which means only passengers who travel on a CX flight to one of the two Malaysian destinations can use CX to travel to the other destination. This is a very limited traffic right. For example, HNL used to have a lot of stopover traffic.

 
9V-SPK
Topic Author
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 3:17 am

HKG - SFO and SIN - HKG are the actually top 10 most profitable routes of SQ. However things have changed a lot for HKG - SFO, when this route used to be one of the most profittable one, however there's a big change.

1. After Cathay Pacific started flying this route (CX is actually the newest operator), competition on this has raised much higher comparing to the old days when only SQ and UA were flying this route.

2. Prices have dropped sharply, thus the profit would drop. Actually fares are always the same for the 3 airlines, usaully UA is the cheapest and SQ is the most expensive. However there's only a very short difference, and that also means that airlines would earn less because the price is actually at the floor, if the 3 airlines are trying to make a decrease in price, they might be seeing red.

3. Business travellers have also dropped. 7-8 years ago when i travelled HKG - SFO (I also travelled HKG - HNL which was even a long time ago) i still remember i nearly had to travel J myself. Why's that? Because the 24 F class seats were FULL. YES, full. And you can't even expect 12 to be full these days. Also at that time the F class and J class tickets are more expensive then nowerdays - Not bluffing, but it's true. Also there wasn't really anything called an alliance in the old days - If people were travelling in J or F, they were surely paying themselves, not getting free upgrades. From the 24 F class wholly occupied comparing with nower days only 4-5 seat occupied out of 12 - Maybe everyone's getting an upgrade and F class tickets are even cheaper than older days, how can you expect an airline to earn that much?

4. People would use the less money to travel to its destination - And transfer flights could do that job. Here in Hong Kong there are lots of travel agencies which would take transfer flights - To save costs and to lower the price of a tour. Obviously great news for JAL or Korean Air, even China Airlines, but not for CX, SQ or UA.

I'd say that the decrease in business travellers could really affect the profit of an airline on a certain route. Sometimes if you sell a first class RT ticket, you can't even gain the same amount profit if you sell 10 Y class tickets. So business travellers could really influence the proft of the airlines. Also increasing landing fees, mainteance, fuels...oh well.

Lest we forget that SFO and TPE have exsisted for a long time...also HNL for a short period of time. To be honest there are lots of airlines in Hong Kong that have 5th traffic rights to fly to another destination from Hong Kong except its origin. I could easily count them out. Just that the situation of SQ is indeed much stranger...i guess SQ is the airline that have the most fifth freedom rights from Hong Kong. Also they actually have rights for HKg - ICN already, the problem is will SQ launch the route. I bet there will be more to come...except ICN. Probably Moscow?
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 9:55 am

If they put the 9V-SV.... or the 9V-SR.... aircraft on the route I'll be happy. If not....NO INTEREST.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Singapore Airlines:SIN - HKG - ICN To Be Next

Mon Apr 22, 2002 1:46 pm

I for one won't consider CX a serious contender for the HKG-SFO-HKG route until they switch to the 747-400, which I believe will happen later this year. The A340-300 is too small a plane to compete against the larger 744 that SQ flies on this route.

HKG-SFO-HKG has always been a strong route for SQ because of the fact that the San Franciso Bay Area has a very large number of ex-patriates from Hong Kong living here (including me  Smile ). They like to fly SQ 1 to HKG because with the late night departure, passengers can sleep right through the flight and arrive in Hong Kong refreshed for a full day's business. This is not the case with UA 805, which arrives in Hong Kong in the late afternoon.

As the economy recovers, I expect loads on the CX, SQ and UA HKG-SFO flights to improve; given the strong demand for this flight from the Chinese community in the Bay Area and with premium passengers returning to this route, this is why I expect SQ to choose as its second long route for their A380-800 fleet (after SIN-LHR-SIN) the SIN-HKG-SFO-HKG-SIN route.

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