RJ_Delta
Topic Author
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Belgium Flag Airline?

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:46 am

After the bankruptcy of Sabena Belgian World Airways, Belgium has only a small carriers like DAT Delta Air Transport or SN Brussels Airlines. As far as know new carriers has bought the aircraft of Sabena like the new VG Airlines which adquired 2 A330-200 and SN Brussels Airlines which has adquired some A319, A330 and A340.

Both carrier are flying international routes (VG Airlines from the next month), so I have a question:

What is the new Flag carrier of Belgium: VG Airlines or SN Brussels Airlines?


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RJ_Delta.
 
planeguy
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RE: Belgium Flag Airline?

Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:52 pm

Neither! Everyone knows that Belgium's flag carrier is now (by default) VLM.
 
RJ_Delta
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Vlm?

Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:01 pm

Why is VLM a very small airline is the flag carrier?

RJ_Delta.
 
OO-AOG
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RE: Belgium Flag Airline?

Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:26 pm

RJ Delta

A couple of corrections to your post...

Belgium has only a small carriers like DAT Delta Air Transport or SN Brussels Airlines.

SN Brussels Airlines is the new name of DAT, itself a former division of bankrupt Sabena.

SN Brussels Airlines which has adquired some A319, A330 and A340.

As far as I am aware, they havn't ordered any of the above aircrafts, except some A330-300 operated by Birdie.





Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
OO-AOG
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RE: Belgium Flag Airline?

Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:31 pm

PlaneGuy

Belgium's flag carrier is now (by default) VLM.

Definately not. VLM call themselves a flemish airline (Belgium's dutch part of the country), and even don't show any national flag on their aircrafts. I can hardly consider them as a flag carrier!
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
ILS.25L
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RE: Belgium Flag Airline?

Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:40 pm

You can not consider one of the 3 airliners as a flag carrier but what's in a name. Can you only consider an airline as a flag carrier when they have been subsidized during several years ? Can you consider an airline as a flag carrier when they have a name like "Air Belgium" or "Air France" ?
I think the decade ofg flag carriers are over. If we speak about flag carriers, everybody seems to accept that the airline with the biggest fleet is to be considered as a flag carrier. In a couple of years we will most certainly see 3 to 4 global airlines and not 7 or 8 "flag carriers" anymore.
To what concerns Belgium : I think SN BRU Airlines can still be the most representing airline for Belgium because the name reflects "SN" and "Brussels" in their name. VG is quite new and has not started their first commercial flight yet. I rather see it as a kind of a feeder for the SN BRU Airlines-network. To what concerns VLM : they can be considered as a regional small airliner who carries the "lion" as a symbol for Flanders and who has its homebase at Antwerp.
Regards, Karl
 
Guest

VLM, VG Or SN? I Do Not Know Yet But I Hope VG.

Thu Apr 25, 2002 4:33 pm

VLM (Vlaamse Luchttransportmaatschappij), erected by Freddy Van Gaever and Christiaan Heinzmann (ex-Constellation erector) started with ex-Busy Bee Fokkers. The colours of Busy Bee were white-yellow-black. The colours of Flanders are yellow and black (flag is yellow with a black lion) so VLM decided to keep the ex-Busy Bee livery but changed the tailfin design and the titles. VLM was taken over by the Dutchman Jaap Rosen Jacobson. As the yellow-black colourscheme was too nationalistic (too Flemish) the Dutchman and former VLM president Heinzman (now president of Luxair) decided to change livery. After a design competition (the task was to come to a more KLM-lookalike livery (due to codeshare) with European Union colours (as being a Belgian airline)) I was the favorite candidate to restyle the airline's image; it was my first airline design project. The airline wanted to get rid of the explanation VLM as being the Flemish airline. I changed the black lion to a golden lion (the national Belgian lion is also gold). Later on VLM added "airlines" to its brand. At the moment VLM Airlines (based in Antwerp) is the most successful Belgian airline in Belgium. As they only fly Fokker 50's and quiet Euregional I cannot say that it is Belgium's flagcarrier.


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After the bankruptcy of Sabena and due to the lack of internartional flights from Brussels late 2001 Freddy Van Gaever erected VG (Van Gaever) Airlines and honoured me to design the VG Airlines' brand and livery. I proposed a brand and aircraft livery design with a strong Belgian recognition; the Belgian tripple colour. As a Dutchman I think it was wise to emphasize the unity of the Belgians although I'm aware that the relation between the different populations are not soo well. With the Belgian colours I hope to have created a new Belgian flagcarrier although I have to admit that another brandname would have been better to emphasize the country of origin aslike Air Belgium, Pan European, Belgium United Airways or simply Belgium Airlines.
Anyway recently Van Gaever (he is now managing director) sold his shares to Tony Gram who is now the owner. Tony Gram is owner of the luggage wear brand Delsey and Kipling. The second A330-200 is a logojet or flying billboard and is painted with the Delsey-logo. The third A330-200 will receive the Kipling logo. As the airline is not yet operating I cannot tell you whether VG Airlines will become a success or not.


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To me SN Brussels Airlines is now Belgium's home carrier, well for the moment, although they do not make a strong presence to me by using such a loooong and local brandname. With the smart and beautiful ex-Sabena tailfin and engine cowl design they hope to take advantage of the existing Sabena-brand awareness among the Belgian's though I think it is not so wise.


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sabenapilot
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RE: Belgium Flag Airline?

Thu Apr 25, 2002 5:11 pm

Hi there all of you,

I must say that I do like your VLM livery, Air Orange!
(PS. it makes me think of the Qualiflyer blue belly Sabena livery, but hey, seems you were first.)

Officially there are no such things as flag carriers in Europe anymore; what is still there are designated carriers.
These are carriers which are given the right to fly routes to destinations where there are no open sky agreements (yet) and where there is still a need for an official bilateral contract between the 2 states concerned.
For EU based companies these are basically all destinations outside of the European Union (- a few other European non EU memberstates) and the USA.

Every country is free to appoint as much designated carriers as they want, but in most cases this number is limited to one, or two (VS) in the UK, because most foreign countries do have only one designated carrier (they still call it their flag carrier) and do not want to see too much competion for their own airline.

In all contracts between the Belgian Government and other countries the designated carrier used to be Sabena, jet this was changed the day before the bankruptcy to dat, now called SN Brussels Airlines.

I would therefor call SN Brussels Airlines the Belgian 'flag' carrier.
 
A330DAT
Posts: 461
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Flag Carriers

Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:27 pm

Officially there are no such things as flag carriers in Europe anymore Really? There's no more flag carrier in Holland? (KLM?), Austria? Italy? France? Ireland? or anywhere else?

Seems to me the need for a flag carrier is put in question only in Belgium (or switzerland). Of course there is talk about joining forces and having only 3 or 4 remaining airlines in Europe but is it really happening? It is a fact that there will be alliances such as "Star" and "OneWorld" but until now everyone is still very much keeping there own identity, eventhough they are part of one or other group. Of course you can go on for hours or even days discussing the meaning of "Flag Carrier". As I said before it is only in Belgium where we ask ourselves this question.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Belgium Flag Airline?

Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:44 pm

Want I ment was that the wording 'flag carrier' does no longer apprear in official documents. They only talk about designated carriers and 'regular' carriers.

Surely didn't mean to say Belgium doesn't need a real flag carrier of their own...
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
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RE: OO-AOG

Fri Apr 26, 2002 9:52 am

OO-AOG:

Sorry if the information is wrong but in a Spanish Magazine called Airline '92 appears that SN Brussels has A319, A320 A321 and A340.

RJ_Delta.
 
donder10
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RE: Belgium Flag Airline?

Fri Apr 26, 2002 7:48 pm

You dont need a flag carrier
 
Spitfire
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RE: Belgium Flag Airline?

Fri Apr 26, 2002 8:02 pm

RJ_Delta,
Don't always believe what is written in press, they often make huge mistakes !!!!!!
My advice: check, re-check and ...re-re-check (cross-check) information. SN Brussels Airlines only fly with "jumbolino", Birdy with A330-300, VG should fly A330-200, Sobelair B 737 and 767. That's the situation in Belgium today.
Rgds.
Spitfire
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
avion2002
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RE: Belgium Flag Airline?

Fri Apr 26, 2002 9:33 pm

The terminology "flag carrier" has become confusing, as it refers to air traffic rights, exchanged between different States. In the old times, these BASAs (Bilateral Air Services Agreements) were based on the principle of mono-designation, i.e. a country could designate one single airline to commercialise the air traffic rights under this international treaty.

A "flag carrier" in that respect was THE designated carrier.

With multi-designation become more the rule, there is no longer a unique carrier allowed to operate an international route, but multiple airlines have market access . Moreover, after EU-reguations and US-Europe opens skies bilaterals became more liberal, the notion of flag carrier really had less sense.

But if one should strictly interpret aviation law : SN Brussels Airlines is the sole designated airline between Belgium and Congo DR, Guinea, Senegal, Cameroon, Gambia, Uganda, Liberia, Angola, Kenya and Rwanda. As such, SN Belgian Airlines is Belgian's flag carrier in these Bilateral Air Services Agreements.

Hope this clarifies ...

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