airsicknessbag
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Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Fri May 03, 2002 5:22 pm


Hello everybody,

I saw a photograph of an ATR42 in full PA colours at DTM. The caption said it was taken in the early 90s.

Does anyone have an idea about the story behind this pic? Regular visitor, charter, one off oddball? Which routes were flown and when exactly?

Thanks,

Daniel Smile
 
TriStar500
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Fri May 03, 2002 5:27 pm

An old edition of "Luftfahrt" from late 1989 has a list of air services offered by the internal German divisions of PA, TW and BA. I think that PA served Holzwickede regularly from Berlin THF.
However, I cannot prove this point until late next week, since I left my stocks of old magazines at my parent's house.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Fri May 03, 2002 5:40 pm


Interesting, thanks. I didn´t even know PA operated ATRs on the intra German flights.

Daniel Smile
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Fri May 03, 2002 5:52 pm

PA Express´operations in Germany started in 1987, it operated out of Berlin to Stockholm, Kiel, Dortmund, Strasbourg, Basel/Mulhouse, Zurich, and Innsbruck, most of them one daily flight. Equipment was the ATR 42-300. Hope it help!

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Fri May 03, 2002 6:08 pm


Thanks to you as well, Flying-Tiger. When did these services end, when PA shut down or when LH started flying to Berlin again?

Daniel Smile
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Fri May 03, 2002 6:16 pm

Didn´t LH buy PA´s traffic rights shortly after the wall fell? It must have been about the same frame of time when PA shut down their ops and LH started theirs. Not the best answer I know but the only thing I can offer right now.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
Rizzibird
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Fri May 03, 2002 8:34 pm

This might be a little off-topic, nevertheless I dare to ask this question. I remember that Tempelhof Express had flights from THF to PAD in the late 1980s. Does anyone know whether they had flights to DTM as well? Can anyone give me some background info about that airline? Thanks in advance.

Rizzibird
 
Ndebele
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Fri May 03, 2002 9:49 pm

@Tristar500: Are you sure the PanAm ATRs were flying to THF? All other PA services were flying to TXL, and I'm 99% sure that I have seen at least one of their ATRs at TXL. Might have been a diverson, I know, but I *think* the ATRs were based at TXL.

@Rizzibird: I guess you're talking about Tempelhof Airways, they had a Saab-340 and (I think) a Nord-262, not sure about the destinations. Tempelhof Express started later, mid-90s I think.
 
Rizzibird
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Fri May 03, 2002 9:52 pm

@Ndebele

You are right, of course I was referring to Tempelhof Airways. I just mixed them up.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Rizzibird
 
vfw614
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Sat May 04, 2002 6:31 am

Tempelhof Airways USA started in 1985 with a Nord 262 on the PAD-THF route after they had operated a corporate shuttle on the route before. They added a second Nord 262 soon afterwards and opened a THF-DTM route, later followed by a short-lived THF-BWE route and an even shorter-lived THF-AGB route. They added Saab 340As in the late 1980s and eventually operated three of them as replacements for the Nords, using them also for routes such as THF-LUX and - shortly before they collapsed - THF-BRU. There is an interesting link between TAUSA and Pan Am as the latter had agreed to acquire a stake in TAUSA in 1987 and pulled out of the deal at the last minute after they had got an insight into all the necessary infronmation provided by TAUSA in good faith. Pan Am then set up Pan Am Express and started services, among other routes, between TXL and DTM in competition with TAUSA (that flew from THF). However, TAUSA won the fight for passengers and Pan Am Express pulled out of the route after some time.

Both Pan Am Express and TAUSA had the problem that they were - as US carriers - without traffic rights after German re-unification. TAUSA tried to cooperate with RFG for a while but when RFG decided to operate the routes in its own right, TAUSA's owners pulled the plug in 1991.
 
patroni
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Sat May 04, 2002 6:59 am

@Ndebele : Correct, PanAm and PanAm Express both operated out of Tegel, not Tempelhof in the 1980's. They had flights with the ATR-42 to Kiel, Westerland, Dortmund and Nuremberg if I remember correctly. I think also to hanover, where they competed with BA's ATPs...

Best regards,

Tom

(Fan of PanAm flight PA 070 TXL-STR-ZRH)
 
HAJ_OW
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Sat May 04, 2002 8:51 pm

Hi all,

Tom is right. PanAm Express operated also on the TXL-HAJ route. They flew this in competition with BA. They operated at least until spring of 1992. I was working at HAJ Airport that time and I had a nice conversation with the flight crew of the early morning service. If I remember it right it was in May 92 and Pan Am ceased service to Berlin around June.
BA downgraded their service from 737, to BAe 748 and finally they flew the Hannover-Berlin route with a Gulftream I turboprop. Was a funny sight as a regular airliner.

Nice weekend

Oliver
 
Ndebele
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Sun May 05, 2002 6:32 pm

Pan Am went bankrupt in 1991. How could Pan Am Express serve TXL-HAJ until June 1992??
 
Ndebele
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Sun May 05, 2002 6:55 pm

Damn, that was my 1000th post, I should have thought of something more creative. I always wanted my 1000th post to be something special, too late, damn!

Checking my old 1990/1991 jp airline-fleets, I found out that I have seen four Pan Am Express ATRs. Iremember that I have spent two full days at TXL in 1990, so I guess the number of Europe-based PA ATRs was four (maybe five).
 
HAJ_OW
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Mon May 06, 2002 3:31 am

Hm, somehow my memory was wrong or I mixed up the years. I admit, 1992 was wrong and it was 1991 when I quit my job at HAJ-Airport :-(
Anyhow. Pan Am Express flew to Hannover that's sure.
Oliver
 
clipper471
Crew
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RE: Pan Am ATR42 At Dortmund? (Early 90s)

Mon May 06, 2002 7:49 am

Patroni, TXL-STR-ZRH was PA91 (PA90 the return).