Guest

CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 1:04 pm

Back in March, China Airlines has announced to place an order for up to 16 A330-300 (including options) this year. http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/773569/

However, according to Flight International, the carrier seems like having problems to decide whether to go ahead ordering A330-300 or B777-200/300 for A300 replacement.

The CI A300 replacement is one of the most fierce competition between Airbus and Boeing in Asian region. China Airlines currently own 7 A300-600R, and another 5 are leased. The order is expected up to 14 firm orders, plus 6 options. Delivery dates is 2005.

CI placed an option for 4 A330 in 1999, along with 744F/A343/738 orders, but this was cancelled in 2000 as CI is looking for a large regional jet order.

Airbus currently offers CI for trade in the A300s for A330s, plus converting the A300 to A300F as a regional freighter which could become part of CI Cargo's fleet.

Boeing is pursuading CI trading its A340 for B777. If this happens, the order for 777 is up to 27, including options. (20 for the A300 replacement, and 7 for A340-300 replacement)
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 1:30 pm

I wonder what is making them change their mind  Insane
 
Mr.BA
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 2:42 pm

When will the decision be made?
Boeing747 万岁!
 
Udo
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 3:54 pm

I'm just wondering whether Boeing still hasn't enough with those deals...more than half of SIA's A340 still need to find a new owner...
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 4:17 pm

What do they understand under the term "regional jet order"? Doesn´t really make much sense to order RJs to replace A330 orders. Anyone having additional info on this?

I don´t think that Boeing will be happy with another 7 A340-300, where would they unload them? And: how long will share-holders accept Boeing to have around 10 A340-300 sitting idle in the desert, only costing money?

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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9V-SVA
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 5:03 pm

I really do not think Boeing has that much A340s on its hands now. 3 have gone to CX and 3 have gone to Khalifa. I believe they only have around 3 more A340 aircraft to go.

9V-SVA
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Flying-Tiger
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 5:06 pm

Nope, should be 11. 15 A343 had been delivered to SIA with two additional A343 going directly from TLS to Boeing. Makes a total of 17.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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cwapilot
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 9:24 pm

A good possibility, I think, is pushing most of those A340s on Garuda. They already operate the A330, and have expressed interest in the A332 and A343. They need to retire their DC10s and 742s soon, as well as new airliners for the international routes they continue to reinstate, and the 777s they have on order they really have no way to pay for, even with their extremely positive progress elsewhere. Seems to me it's an overlooked possibility, but perhaps I am crazy.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
JAL
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 10:25 pm

When will the final decision be made?
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
manni
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 10:31 pm

Keep them coming  Big grin
It starts to get amuzing. Every once in a while an Airbus order is being reconsidered in favor of Boeing.
remember Qantas reconsidering the A330 and SIA the A340-500. Virgin Atlantic was going to replace their A340-600 with a 777-300 order. Who's next?
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
hkg_clk
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 10:49 pm

I certainly hope CI stays with their Airbus plans. It's getting really boring to hear about airlines placing orders for a type, then changing their minds shortly afterwards. Orders nowadays don't seem to mean much!
See my homepage for a comprehensive guide to spotting and photography at HKG
 
The777Man
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 10:50 pm

We'll just have to see what happens. It would be great to see another carrier getting 777s. I can think of other carriers that could use second hand A343s; JAT, PIA and Air India. Boeing has placed the SQ A343s and hasn't had any problems yet, they have been placed as soon as they been handed over by SQ. None parked in the desert as far as I know. The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
Guest

RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 10:58 pm

I'm wondering whether the US government has anything to do with this; after all, Taiwan owes her defence to the US.

Cheers
 
ual777contrail
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Wed May 15, 2002 11:52 pm

they are having problems deciding a330's for 777's? no brainer. the 777 is the cadillac of the skys,why do you want a honda?





ual 777 contrail
 
ryanb741
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 12:00 am

Well, Honda's are more fuel efficent cars than Cadillacs, offering better fuel economies therefore enabling you to drive further before refuelling. They also cost less than the Caddy for equal if not better performance  Big grin  Big thumbs up
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Airbus_A340
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 12:13 am

I sure hope they will stick to the Airbus A330...that livery would look so great on that aircraft!

Maybe it's just a threat to get Airbus to lower their prices even further.
Trevor
People. They make an airline. www.cathaypacific.com
 
RickB
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 12:17 am

Presumably if they have already ordered the A330 then they will of paid a non-refundable deposit - that will have to be a hell of a deal off Boeing for them to cancel the order (or just political pressure from Washington)
 
EGGD
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 12:20 am

Boeing is pursuading CI trading its A340 for B777. If this happens, the order for 777 is up to 27, including options. (20 for the A300 replacement, and 7 for A340-300 replacement)

OK, so thats more 777's than Airbus' order of 14 or so A330's, and what about the A300's being converted into A300F's??? Sounds like Boeing will be giving a HUGE discount on those 777's if the order goes ahead...
 
travelin man
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 2:11 am

Oh yes, I'm sure it is the US government forcing China Airlines to buy the 777. It couldn't possibly be the merits of the 777....  Insane

(I wonder if the US government MADE Singapore get rid of their A340s in favor of the 777 too? Damn US government...)
 
Guest

RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 2:32 am

Travelin Man, i don't think anyone here is discounting anything, we're just discussing all the factors which we think might come into play...of course politics may have nothing to do with the outcome of this order whatsoever-but this is a discussion board, and I raised the point for 2 reasons;

1) America plays a large role in Taiwan's defence; does it therefore tie its defence to certain conditions (answer: probably, because it happens with European aid to African countries, and in many other scenarios...)

2) What are other people's thoughts on this? If you don't agree, that's great, but why not elaborate your opinion with some thoughts as to why you disagree?

I promise you this is in no way any attempt to incite a silly one vs other thread...I've seen plenty of those, and have never taken part in them; I have no axe to grind, and no agenda whatsoever (other than to discuss aviation matters)...

Therefore I should be able to raise a political question without being shot down and accused of trying to bash one company or government against the other.

Cheers
 
travelin man
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 3:17 am

Sorry, but I've seen too many threads which denegrate into A vs. B, and saying the US government is somehow applying pressure on Taiwan to "buy US" frankly discounts the merits of the 777. We can sit here and ponder if the US government is pressuring Taiwan, but to what end? None of us has any information, so we'd be merely speculating, and trust me, it would turn into a war.

That's why I brought up the point about Singapore and THEIR A340s. I don't think anyone here thinks it was US government pressure that cause SQ to change their minds about their aircraft choice. Why should it be any different here?

Speculating on US government pressure only invites a war, because frankly the only thing people here can do without hard information is speculate.

The 777 is a very good aircraft (as is the A330). Perhaps CI has reevaluated the type of aircraft they will need for future growth? Could it possibly be that simple?
 
ual777contrail
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 3:50 am

ryanb741,
i was not talking about the cost of fuel or a matter of being more fuel efficient,i am talking about it being the greatest airplane ever made,comfort and just a solid plane.

hondas are pretty cool being that i own one,but to have a caddy would be a better car and awe yes it's american made!!!

lol,
ual 777 contrail
 
Guest

RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 4:01 am

'We can sit here and ponder if the US government is pressuring Taiwan, but to what end? None of us has any information, so we'd be merely speculating, and trust me, it would turn into a war.'

What can I say? I totally agree!  Big thumbs up

I would still love to know though...(and not just all of what comes from the US side!)

 
yak42
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 4:25 am

Well Cadilacs, the Americans love them but no one else seems to. Just like the 777 I suppose.
I've only ever seen one of these things in the UK and it was probably an American driving it. They really have to push these B777s on foreigners for some reason though.
 
travelin man
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 4:25 am

"American ignorance will never cease to exist...but such a mentality has only one result: painful own goals...and we have seen many of those..."

Udo, please stay on topic.

Thanks!  Smile
 
Joni
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 4:35 am


Travelling man,

The idea that the US might pressure Taiwan to drop the Airbus orders in favour of the 777 isn't so far-fetched, considering that was exactly what happened with El Al's 332s.

 
Greg
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 4:52 am

I'm not sure that a nation promoting it's goods and services is such a bad thing. Of course the US would use diplomatic pressure to help sell Boeing jets...just as the member nations of Airbus would do the same--and have for years (both sides, guys). These deals often result in offset agreements and other trade relation agreements.

Face it, Boeing and Airbus aircraft are so competitive with each other they might as well be the same products. It's the cost, financing, tangible and intangible offsets that will sell the products--particularly when the economy is not that strong.

Airbus appears to be doing a better job of this---but only for the moment.
 
Udo
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 5:02 am

Travelin man, I stayed well on topic as I just commented the post of UAL777whateverhisnamewas.

Unfortunately, many Americans just seem to regard everything as inferior which is not from the US...an ignorance which is not only dumb, but also dangerous. Think about that.

By the way, it's a shame to compare such a magnificent and successful plane like the B777 with a ridiculous car like a Cadillac, which nobody wants outside the US, which is a fuel waster and environment killer, and which is just far away from quality and technology standards of cars like Mercedes, BMW, Audi or Lexus.
The car comparison lacks in general because on that field we have a big difference between American and European manufacturers. American cars get only sold in the US, while European cars are hot sellers all over the world due to their leading technology and quality.

Fortunately, Boeing does not follow the sad tradition of its car colleagues but is on a similar level of innovation, technology and quality as its European competition.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
N79969
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 5:55 am

Capt. Picard, you raise a very valid point. Because of the dollars/euros involved, jobs, and prestige, politicians lobby for their constituent aircraft companies. Before CI ordered the A340, one of Washington state's senators went to Taipei to dissuade them from buying the A340. This kind of lobbying is typical everywhere I would think. (I wonder if he told them that the 340 could takeoff from a taxiway)

French businesses may deduct bribes from their tax returns as they are treated as legitimate business expenses. (perhaps this has changed- don't know) Hence, Airbus has a little more than diplomatic persuasion to help push their planes. Paying bribes in foreign countries is a serious crime in the USA and can land the officers in jail. (See Foreign Corrupt Practices Act) To be fair, Lockheed paid off PM Tanaka of Japan so ANA would buy some tri-stars back in 1970s. He was booted.

Udo, check and see who is no. 1 producer of cars worldwide. And then check no. 2. and 3. Amazing, isn't it? The Cadillac is an outstanding car. I suggest you look up the specifications on the V-8 Northstar engine. It's pretty efficient compared to European or Japanese luxury engines.

We ignorant, bass ackwards Americans are the largest importer in the world of pretty much everything. We buy everyone's stuff by the arm and carload. You name the product or a country of origin, we buy it.

 
travelin man
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 6:06 am

Unfortunately, many Americans just seem to regard everything as inferior which is not from the US...an ignorance which is not only dumb, but also dangerous. Think about that.

I thought this topic was about China Airlines' rethinking of an A330 purchase, not on whether Americans thought American products were superior. I agree the Caddy/Honda comment was ridiculous, though.

I'm not discounting that potentially the US government *could* be pressuring Taiwan (and by extension China Airlines). However, you must acknowledge that it is just as likely (if not more so) the fact that China Airlines has rethought its requirements for future aircraft purchases (much like Singapore Airlines did).

(And by the way, Saab, Volvo, and Jaguar are American companies now, just as Chrysler is now European. And the last I checked Ford and GM sold a lot of cars in Europe...)
 
Udo
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 6:47 am

Well I pretty much expected these replies.

1. To find out who builds the best cars, the question is not necessarily who produces most cars. Everybody knows that buying and running cars is nowhere cheaper than in the US. You don’t have high taxes on gas or high taxes on the cars themselves and that means that plus/minus 240 million Americans own many more cars than a similar number of Western European citizens.
Any if you read any neutral and objective car comparison you will find out who leads the field of technology and quality. Your Northstar engine might be wonderful, but it’s just one example.

2. Saab, Volvo and Jaguar are American companies, but only on the paper. The same with Chrysler the other way round. It’s just a matter of ownership. And as far as Ford and GM are concerned: the European Fords are completely different cars from the American Fords, they are designed and built in Europe. GM just owns some European companies, including Opel of Germany, cars designed and built in Germany. And GM’s good sales in Europe or Germany are mainly caused by Opel which GM just bought.

Sorry for having been off topic, but some things just had to be cleared.


I agree that CAL could really reevaluate the A330 order for other reasons apart politics. I would even suggest that such kinds of influences aren’t any longer as intensive as in earlier times, on both sides. It would be nice to have politics completely out but that will most likely never happen…


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
chiawei
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 7:33 am

CI does have a lgeitimate reason to reconsider A340.
A340 has to make some short hop to HKG.

A340 is not as good as 777 on such route. Most likely within 2 years there will be direct travel between main land china and taiwan.

777 would give CI a lot of flexibility as the 777 can be used on china routes in the day time, and turn around at night to US and other long range route.

I am wondering if BR will reconsider its A330 deal as well. 777 would also fit BR much better than A330. As regular 777 would be compatible with its 777LR on order.

But be honest the A340/330 deal was also done under political pressure to get access for Virages and missiles.
 
travelin man
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 8:26 am

"And if you read any neutral and objective car comparison you will find out who leads the field of technology and quality."

Well, according to JD Powers (a neutral observer), the top cars for quality in the US in 2001 were:

Best Compact Car in Initial Quality
Toyota Corolla

Best Compact Pickup in Initial Quality
GMC Sonoma

Best Compact Van in Initial Quality
Toyota Sienna

Best Entry Luxury Car in Initial Quality
Lexus ES 300

Best Entry Midsize Car in Initial Quality
Nissan Altima

Best Entry Sport Utility in Initial Quality
Honda CR-V

Best Full-Size Car in Initial Quality
Chrysler Concorde

Best Full-Size Pickup in Initial Quality
Toyota Tundra

Best Full-Size Sport Utility in Initial Quality
Ford Expedition

Best Luxury Sport Utility in Initial Quality
Lexus RX 300

Best Mid Luxury Car in Initial Quality
Saab 9-5

Best Midsize Sport Utility in Initial Quality
Nissan Pathfinder

Best Premium Luxury Car in Initial Quality
Lexus LS 430

Best Premium Midsize Car in Initial Quality
Toyota Avalon

Best Premium Sports Car in Initial Quality
Chevrolet Corvette

Best Sporty Car in Initial Quality
Acura Integra

Hmmm... only ONE European car made it (the Saab 9-5), compared to 11 Japanese models and 4 American models. Sacre bleu!

And if you are saying that the Ford and GM cars built in Europe are not really American, are the BMW's, Mercedes, Hondas, and Toyotas built in the US American?

Sorry to go off topic, but I just had to clear some things up....

Back to the main topic: I was thinking about it, and even if the US government WAS pressuring Taiwan and China Airlines (I have my doubts), I guess it would be our right considering how much we fund their defense and buy their semiconductors. (the same situation applies with Israel).
 
Guest

RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 8:46 am

A report that didn't relates to CI order gives me a feeling that CI might order A330 because of Government's pressure.

Taiwan recently failed to join World Health Organisation. Surprisingly, Europe is not helping Taiwan at all.

I wonder will Europe change its attitude towards Taiwan and regarding this politically once CI go ahead with the 20 A333 order?
 
N79969
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 10:13 pm

Taiwan is always under China's shadow and has to fight for diplomatic recognition. The US closed its embassy in Taipei in the 1970s. Taiwan, for valid reason, spreads it money around the world in exchange for diplomatic recognition. If they are looking for European support in their quest to join the WHO, GAAT, and what not, an Airbus purchase would make sense. From a fleet perspective, they should standardize on the B777. That would eliminate an extra engine type in the fleet and it is the better aircraft.

I don't think the U.S. government is spending too much time on selling Boeing these days. There is plenty of other stuff on the diplomatic front.

Udo, I actually drive a VW. Maybe when I'm rich I'll buy, according to your logic, an all-American BMW built in South Carolina.
 
Greg
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Thu May 16, 2002 10:45 pm

Thankfully, those BMW modles are still DESIGNED in Germany--and only assembled in the US. Engines and transmissions are all German built. In fact...only 50% of US built BMW's have domestic components.'

Oh yeah....I hope they go for the 777--athough highly unlikely.
 
ual777contrail
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Fri May 17, 2002 1:19 am

udo whateveryournameis,

you have got serious issues,by me compairing the two cars.(just compairing) i have list two products that are so diffrent,like most have said the honda's are better on fuel and the caddys are just a better car.

dont feel like you have to take the weight of the world on your shoulders udoo,if you dont like american products dont buy them.

i do feel the 777 is a far better airplane,you have strong opinions for airbus because? you are euopean? that is how i feel about the 777.this is also MY OPINION!
like N79969 stated about the cars,the caddy is a good car, i think that car is way to big for your narrow roads.the caddy would not do well in europe for many reasons.that is another topic.

and also what is this about "ignorance is dumb, and dangeous"? fill me in on what you mean.chill out undoo and take a deep breath



ual 777 whatevermynameis
 
N79969
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Fri May 17, 2002 3:21 am

China hassles countries that recognize Taiwan diplomatically. I think Taiwan knows that Airbus and Europeans are more concerned with selling to mainland China than to them but probably hope the 330/340 orders might give them some attention in Europe. I think the 330/340 orders for CI began when the US publicly criticized President Lee Tung Hui when he challenged the one-China policy out loud. He sort of provoked China with that rhetoric and sort of embarrased the US. It is well-known that US will protect Taiwan so his remarks needlessly raised the profile of the Taiwan issues and added tension to the US-China relationship.

Tschuss,

N79969, der unwissender Amerikaner

 
B-HOP
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Fri May 17, 2002 6:35 pm

I think it would be a bit stupid if CI switch side from A340 to 777, since they have already invested in parts and Sim's, buying 777 would mean write off all the cost on the 340 and start again, and could any of you tell me how much similarities there are between CF6/GE90 or PW409X/PW4060? The 330 can do short sectors, look at how CX use them. But then politics plays part, Prisdent Chen desperately need support from the US and he would use his power to make sure US is happy.

Regards
kev
Live life to max!!!
 
N79969
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RE: CI Reconsiders A330 Order, A Hope For 777

Fri May 17, 2002 10:00 pm

B-HOP, actually what I meant is that if 777 replaces the 330/340 you can have one engine type- (e.g. GE90, Trent, or PW)- for that niche. If you have 330/340- you have the CFM56 and something for the 330. The 777A models are used by UA for short flights and BA uses some of their 777 for relatively short flights that are comparable to CX 330 flights.

But you are right in pointing out that there would be costs associated with a new spare parts inventory and simulators.