matt
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:36 am

Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Wed May 15, 2002 9:33 pm

Not surprisingly, AC is working on plans for a new international leisure airline. Any ideas on what the name might be? Salsa?

http://www.globeandmail.com (business section)


Next flights: YQM-YYZ-YOW v.v. / YQM-CUN v.v. / YQM-YUL-YWG v.v. / YSJ-YYZ-SEA-SFO / SFO-YYZ-YOW-YQM / YQM-YYZ-MUC-TXL /
 
dripstick
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 9:43 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Wed May 15, 2002 9:36 pm

Here is the article...

By KEITH McARTHUR
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail


Halifax — Air Canada is working on plans for a new international leisure airline — another step in its brand-diversification strategy that has already led to the launch of Tango, Jazz, Zip and Jetz.

Air Canada president and chief executive officer Robert Milton said Tuesday the new airline would be modelled after Australian Airlines, a sub-brand scheduled to be launched this fall by Qantas Airways Ltd.

"I'm intrigued by what Qantas has done in Australia," Mr. Milton told reporters in Halifax after Air Canada's annual general meeting.

"I think it's clear in terms of some of what we're doing that we're willing to basically adopt some of the best of what other airlines around the world are doing."

Last month, Qantas confirmed plans to launch a new long-haul brand in October that will offer a single class of service to Asian destinations including Singapore, Hong Kong and Osaka. Australian Airlines will serve destinations that Qantas has been unable to serve profitably through its main carrier.

While there are no firm plans yet, Mr. Milton said a long-haul leisure airline could work for Air Canada because of the large volume of leisure travel going in and out of the country, especially in the summer months.

He said there are some long-haul routes used primarily by leisure travellers where it does not necessarily make sense for Air Canada to offer business class service.

Meanwhile, Air Canada is finalizing plans for an enhanced business-class offering on other international routes. Mr. Milton said the new service, which is expected to include flat beds, will be introduced at the end of the year when the airline takes delivery of a new Airbus A340 aircraft.

Mr. Milton said that if Air Canada decides to go ahead with the new international leisure airline, it could be introduced at any time, even possibly later this year.

"It's the kind of thing that is going on in the marketing department at Air Canada," he said.

Mr. Milton also mused about expanding two other Air Canada brands. He suggested that aircraft could be dedicated to and branded for Air Canada Vacations, which flies to southern sun destinations including Cuba and Mexico.

And he also talked about expanding Air Canada's role in the cargo business. Currently, Air Canada flies cargo in the bellies of passenger planes, but Mr. Milton has talked in the past about setting up a separate cargo airline with a dedicated fleet of aircraft.

"I've never accepted that Canada doesn't have its own very large . . . freighters flying across the Atlantic and Pacific every night. There are dozens of these aircraft operated by foreign airlines flying across the Atlantic," Mr. Milton said.

He said would like to see Air Canada develop a cargo fleet after it has been able to stabilize operations on the passenger side of the business.

In addition to Tango, Air Canada has announced plans for a second discount brand called Zip, which will operate mostly on short-haul routes in Western Canada. Air Canada has also launched a sports charter business call Jetz and rebranded its regional airlines as Jazz.

Some observers have criticized Air Canada's brand diversification strategy, saying it creates confusion in the marketplace. Others say it doesn't make sense for Air Canada to be introducing new brands when it is having a tough enough time returning to profitability.

But Mr. Milton said the Tango brand has surpassed all expectations. He used his speech at Tuesday's annual general meeting to explain the brand strategy to shareholders.

"At Air Canada, we've decided that the concept of sub-brands and complementary brands offers significant upside potential to our business."

Mr. Milton said Air Canada is following a strategy that works in the hotel business. He cited the example of Marriott International, which runs several distinct brands — including Fairfield Inn, Courtyard, Residence Inn and Renaissance Hotels — in addition to its main Marriott Hotels brand.

"Each brand serves a specific and segmented customer base. The brands don't just cater to every possible price point, but also to every identifiable demographic: young, old, business, leisure, short stay, and every possible combination in between," Mr. Milton said.

What's another word for thesaurus?
 
dripstick
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 9:43 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Wed May 15, 2002 9:40 pm

I'm so glad for Mr. Milton is making sooo much money that he can afford all these fun ventures!

Tango, Jizz, Zip, Jetz, and now this.

What a guy!
What's another word for thesaurus?
 
fly_yhm
Posts: 1647
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Wed May 15, 2002 9:49 pm

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Get over it Milton you not going to make money and Im pretty sure this is going o cause you to lose more money.
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
 
dripstick
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 9:43 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Wed May 15, 2002 9:52 pm

"While there are no firm plans yet, Mr. Milton said a long-haul leisure airline could work for Air Canada because of the large volume of leisure travel going in and out of the country, especially in the summer months.
"

...sounds like he's going after Transat and Skyservice.

And Zip is going after WestJet...hmmm

That's not predatory, is it?
What's another word for thesaurus?
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Wed May 15, 2002 11:08 pm

He is moving into the same market as these airlines, as well he should. He has to find a way to make money for his boss (The share holder) and this is how he is going to do it.

Maybe he will follow Qantas's lead and call his new airline Canadian Airlines  Smile
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
airman99o
Posts: 871
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 1999 4:15 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 12:29 am

God every time I hear something about this airline I cannot get over how greedy this airline has become. It totally infuriates me in how they can get away with all these new divisions. Sure it creates new competition but in the end when all the dust has settled. Air Canada will be the sole surviving airline. Tango should be shut down, ZIP should not be allowed to happen, and this new one should be stopped right now.
I am sorry but they should just stick to what they were doing for Years. Regular flying. Just get rid of that idiot at the helm of air Canada. He is what is killing them. Go back to flying as it once was a couple of years back. Compete but do it fairly. They are not doing it fairly now.

Airman99o
Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
 
RootsBoy
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 9:28 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 12:43 am

Can you say Monopoly?
Wake-up Collenette!!!!  Pissed  Pissed
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 1:07 am

Wake UP, Ottawa, INDEED!

I, too, am sick, absolutely sick and tired of Milton and
Air Canada. This man has G O T to go. This is NOT competition, this is predatory practice in motion. Someone here mentioned the word greed, which is the most suitable term I can think of.

If Ottawa does not put a bloody stop to Zip, Tango, and now this friggin leisure division, it's going to have
to face an angry Canadian public, who will be left with nothing but the AC monopoly. So, now Milton has his greedy little pig eyes set on Transat and Skyservice.
Nice. Very nice. Meanwhile, the buffoons on Parliament Hill continue to have their heads buried in the sand, only raising them to collect their oversized
paycheques, not to mention the pensions.
 
Squigee
Posts: 634
Joined: Sun May 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 1:10 am

Here's a name for this 'new' division... Air Canada 3000!

I agree, the government has a duty to stop this blatantly uncompetitive behavior now!
Someday, we'll look back at this, laugh nervously, and then change the subject.
 
Skyway1
Posts: 977
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 12:15 pm

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 1:33 am

Air Canada wants to puy yet another face on themselves?

I have a friend in St. John's that can't get a ticket in July to Toronto for lower than $800! What a joke!

I'm glad I don't live in Canada, I would never afford to be on a plane again.

Chris  Smile
KNUK, KNUK, KNUK woowoowoo
 
CX829
Posts: 126
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 5:39 am

It would be very interesting to see how this plays out...
transferring current fleet off the main AC into this venture or ..... new aircrafts, pilots, crews and jobs? As well as government intervention.... would it ever come?
 
SafeFlyer
Posts: 561
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 6:41 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 6:17 am

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIInnnnnnnnnnnnnnnccccccccrrrrrrrrrreeeedible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Simply.
They will be spending 20M$ painting Zip planes and now they are talking about something that cut hurt TS or SSV and would need new interiors. And instead of introducing flat beds Uncle Milty, you should be improving economy, offering PTV's instead for example. How do you want them to make money, I'f they are competing against themselves, because, they can't cut Hospitality on the mainline!
 
fly_yhm
Posts: 1647
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 6:23 am

They should call it

AIR CANADA JOKE
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
 
JAT
Posts: 1064
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 4:45 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 6:38 am

An article in the Star on the same topic at one point stated that "The new airline would serve Canada .... particularly those that want to explore their ethnic roots". If this means that they will start flying to Warsaw, Prauge, Budapest and Moscow, destinations which are currently only served by the respective countries' national airlines, then great. I wouldn't mind getting on a plane in Toronto and getting off in Belgrade if the price is right. I'm sure if they were to start flying to Belgrade they would be cheaper than JAT, if JAT even resumes flights to Canada.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not too hot about these new ridicilous names but if I benefit I don't mind. We'll wait and see, as always.
 
yow
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:47 pm

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 6:56 am

Here's a name for the leisure airline...Uncle Milty's Dream Vacation. Big grin

But in all seriousness, if AC were to develop a leisure airline that mean adding new international flights from destinations besides YYZ (and bringing back some old ones, like YEG-LHR), then I'm all for it. Also the low-yield, seasonal YYZ-Europe flights again would be sensible to be in an all Hospitality configuration.
 
Cap'n Dan
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 5:49 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 7:22 am

You guys are all missing the boat. Maybe, just maybe, Milton is ahead of the time. The time of the full service airline has obviously passed - just look at the success of Westjet, Southwest etc. Milton recognises this fact, and is trying to do something about it.
Furthermore, it is not predatory: Air Canada is not selling seats below cost. Why, then, is it predatory for a private company to go about making a profit?
Safeflyer, I think AC is justified in spending money on Executive class amenities - that's where they make their money - people who want to travel economy are generally willing to forgo a PTV for a lower price.
Now I'm going to go put on a football helmet as I wait with baited breath for your ensuing rebuttals.
 
Marrrty
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 9:38 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 7:29 am

It's called business folks, and Mr. Milton is doing exactly what an intelligent CEO should do - make money for the shareholders by remaining competitive and increasing market share.
 
Dash8King
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Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 8:15 am

We have a right as consumers to have competition, these brands are cheap for now so everyone wins but when they knok out WJ, Skyservice and Air Transat nobody wins but them. They recognise that people don't want a monopoly so they change their name and the common Joe doesn't recognise that its AC that is getting the cash so they buy the ticket thinking they are fighting Air Monopoly.
 
User avatar
yyz717
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RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 9:07 am

Ya can't blame AC for being competitive. Collenette should stay out of it. If we want airline competition, as Canadians we can choose to fly other carriers. But the govt should NOT legislate the market....this will only increase costs & inefficiency.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
chock head
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue May 07, 2002 1:11 pm

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 9:32 am

I do not think that Zip will be able to run off Westjet.Westjet has established its brand and name much the same way Southwest has.Skyservice and Air Transat I am not so sure about.
It will be interesting to see if AC creates a new company (like Zip) for their leisure airline.That way they get to hire all new non unionized counter staff and contract out eveything else.I bet the AC unions are gearing up for a fight.I envision a scenario where AC itself is only a small niche carrier and the bulk of people flying are on one of the new brands (Zip,Tango,etc).This way AC is able to reduce labour costs while still making the profit for AC.
 
dripstick
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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 9:43 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 9:42 am


Competition is good, but only up until all the competition has been eliminated.

Now, I'm not crazy enough to believe that AC is out to put the other carriers entirely out of business.

But how can AC overextend themselves into all these new ventures when they should be concentrating on digging themselves out of one monterous hole?

Oh...wait a minute, I forgot, flag carriers dont' have to do that. I read that in another thread. Excuse me.
What's another word for thesaurus?
 
slawko
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Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 10:25 am

Well the people who count seem to think he is on the right track, AC's stock closed at 7.82. I agree with YYZ717 Ottawa should stay the hell out of the business...they have done way too much already! If the entire country is like the 90% of you on the westjet/ anticompetition bandwagon then they will not fly on this airline. If the other airlines can not keep up then they will fall away and someone else will come up behind them, thats how the free market works.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
chock head
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue May 07, 2002 1:11 pm

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 10:48 am

I personally am not anti Air Canada it just seems they engage in bully tactics when they already control 80% of the domestic market.I don`t subscribe to the theory that you need tonnes of government regs , I like letting the free market decide , but there are unfair competition rules that must be enforced so that there is not a monopoly.Governments do this for other businesses as well.
It is a fact that if C3 had not gone tits up that Tango would have been shut down as predatory.AC enjoyed and continues to enjoy preferential treatment from Ottawa.They should only play fair.
Would all the same people who claim that the government should stay out of it feel the same way if Gerry Schwarz had been allowed to purchase AC and then restructure it so that it might have one day been foreign owned.AC can`t cry about govt interference when it has benefited from the govt for so long.
 
Planeawesome
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2000 6:32 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 10:53 am

As far as I know they already have an "Air Canada Vacations" division.
I think they sell blocks of some of their scheduled flights to vacation wholesalers just like TS and SSV to some degree.

So what, they splash on a new logo the next tome an A-320 or B-767 is due to be repainted.

It won't lower their costs in a very cost sensitive market segment.The aircraft and fuel costs don't change. I'm sure the unions will ensure that the labor costs stay the same. The overall overhead stays the same. Marketing costs go up.

I think this is basically a non-issue.
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 11:01 am

But C3 did go tits up, without tango's help and so Tango could not be viewed as predatory, because the pray died all by itself. I agree AC has enjoyed some preferential treatment from the feds, but so did Canadian for YEARS...thats why i would rather see them stay the hell away from the industry and let the market decide.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
lasbagman
Posts: 343
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 8:55 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 11:38 am

Air Canada Vacations is the Tour Division of Air Canada.
They do Have ACV charter flights to the Carribbean and Mexico. Air Canada Vacations one season had a Charter on Royal. I used to work for Canadi>n Holidays and although they were the tour arm of Canadi>n Airlines we had several flight on Royal Airlines.
One season we were on Royal's 186 seat 727 YEG/LAS
and on their L1011 from YYZ. The passengers still accumulated Canadian Plus points on those airlines.
It was simply cheaper and more economical to use other carriers

 
chock head
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue May 07, 2002 1:11 pm

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 12:14 pm

Sorry , not trying to belabour the point here but I wanted to respond to something.

"It won't lower their costs in a very cost sensitive market segment.The aircraft and fuel costs don't change. I'm sure the unions will ensure that the labor costs stay the same. The overall overhead stays the same. Marketing costs go up."

I could not disagree more.AC is creating Zip to avoid union labour costs.They are hiring new "customer contact personnel" and they are contracting out their ground handling.

If they do this with the new leisure carrier and eventually fold Tango into the mix there is a huge saving.By creating these new companies they are not bound by the same contracts that AC is.In the case of Zip only the 732 is being used-lower mtce cost because you are only looking after 1 type of plane.

And yes C3 was about to go tits up but the competition bureau still found Tango to predatory.Just because a shark goes 2 days without killing any prey does not mean that it is no longer a predator.
 
rootsgirl
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 1:13 pm

"Leisure" airline??? In other words Air Canada is now jumping on the charter market. Look out Skyservice and Transat because the sharks are hungry and they will be swimming in your water.

Ai Canada Vacations is a tour operator much the same as Sunquest, Regent, Signature, World of Vacations etc. Tour operators buy seats from airlines and sell charter package holidays.

When is this going to stop? Air Canada is a shceduled airline, they also have a regional airline and Tango and ZIP. Is that not enough?

It amazes me how and why our goverment permits such blatant attempts to put other airlines out of business. Maybe they should call the new leisure airline " Shark Air". Their marketing slogan can read " Shark Air, we guarantee to kill the competition"
 
Dash8King
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Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 2:02 pm

I understand its business I am a business man myself, but as a consumer I hate it. Zip will work because it is replacing AC mainline flights ie YYC-YVR once zip gets going as I understand there will be only low cost operator's on the route. This will hurt WJ because part of the reason that WJ makes so much money is the fact that it charges like half the fare. Now it is competing with the same fare.
 
slawko
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Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 10:13 pm

"This will hurt WJ because part of the reason that WJ makes so much money is the fact that it charges like half the fare. Now it is competing with the same fare. " So then in other words WJ was only making money because they were the only low cost operator on the route, and now that there is low cost competition WJ wont be able to make money?? If there is no demand for full service flights between those cities then why should AC continue to operate those routes??? Just because they are full service is not a good reason enough, if they cant make money on the route, then I as a share holder hope that they cut it or change the service....oh wait a minute...thats what they did!!! Would you prefer that Air Canada drop YYZ-YVR all together?
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Dash8King
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 10:42 pm

"So then in other words WJ was only making money because they were the only low cost operator on the route..." Yes I think that would be the major reason that they are making money, if you can get and use points on zip and pay the same fare as you would WJ you would most likely choose to get some points. No obviously they shouldn't drop YYC-YVR all together but if they knock out WJ they are only going to make the consumers mad and when new competition opens up then AC will be hurt again. What are they gonna launch then?
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 10:59 pm

Yes, from a business point of view, of course Uncle Miltie is on the right track for his company, there is no denying that. He IS doing what any predatory CEO would do to ensure an eventual full market share.
So this is really not surprising, considering AC Vacations has been in full swing for over 20 years.

But there are some here who are calling this new AC leisure venture a "non-issue"?? For who? Certainly NOT the Canadian consumer, in the long run. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if AC is successful in its attempt to wipe out TS and SSV, and make no bones about it, that's what he aims to do, then you can call it Zip, you can call it Tango, you can call it whatever the hell you want, but it all adds up to one company. And you think fares will remain stabilized and at their current rates? LOL, ooookay.

Personally, Groupe Transat is a very well run and organized and highly profitable outfit, and it would appear Russ Paysons SSV is as well, so it certainly will not be an easy battle for Miltie in this arena. (sidenote: in my opinion, Russ Payson needs to establish his own tour operator to grow and garner a larger market share. C3 Holidays, Air Transat Holidays, Air Canada Vacations, and even Holidays By Wardair, way back when, are and were highly profitable for the respective carriers). Canadi>n Holidays was profitable for a while, until mismanagement at PWA put an end to that. Many thanks to Rys Eton, Kevin Jenkins and the gang at PWA.

However, what frustrates me is Ottawa's non-response to this. There are those here that feel Ottawa should stay the hell out of it. And, to a certain degree, you are correct. Remember, it was Ottawa's pressure on Miltie to purchase Canadi>n that was set the wheels in motion to bring us (Canadian Air Industry) to where we are today. Of course, mismanagement at CP (PWA) and C3 certainly did not help matters. But, the writing is most certainly on the wall, in respect to the mandate of Miltie and Co.

Then again, I suppose that, in the end, it really is not up to Ottawa, it's up to us. WE have the power, and the CHOICE. Not Miltie, not Collenette. All of us who fly for both business and pleasure will shape the future. WE have to be vigilant in supporting WJ, TS, and SSV. WE have to be determined to DEFINE and SHAPE the market, not to be ruled by it. If there's anything that makes me laugh and scream at the same time, it's the bloody hypocrisy of those who whine about no competition, while waiting to pass through security at Pearson, with an Air Canada boarding pass in their hands. If you have a choice, and wish to see the current carriers survive and flourish in Canada, then BOOK THEM!!!

Anyway, just my thoughts.
Canadi>nBoy
YYZ
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Thu May 16, 2002 10:59 pm

I dont know about being able to collect aeroplan points on ZIP, and I dont think that they should be allowed to do so, BUT Aeroplan is now its own company, and as such it can offer the program to anyone. So in theory if WJ wanted to have aeroplan they could easily try and get it, and there is not much AC could do about it...Royal had aeroplan, and I think some others too. If the consumer is mad with AC for taking on/out competition then they can choose not to fly on AC or any of its airlines. But they wont because if they can get a cheaper seat on AC then they will take it, and Westjet or anyone else will have to find a way to offer a competitive fare.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Fri May 17, 2002 3:14 am

Any govt intervention will only make things worse in the long run. No 85% market share is ever sustainable...AC's natural market share will drop over time, only if the market stays truly competitive. On this basis, I support the AC decision to launch AC Leisure....Milty has every right to do this. The Canadian market is certainly large enough for 2 or 3 players....CP and C3 were done in my themselves.....not AC.

Canadianboy is right.....we as consumers can choose to deliberately avoid AC in order to support the smaller players. But it will involve sacrifice. Canadianboy...with all due respect....you have flown AC many times in recent months & reported it as such on this forum.....if you were serious about reducing AC's dominance, you would avoid AC.


IMHO
Neil
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

YYZ717

Fri May 17, 2002 4:27 am

Yyz717, yes, your comment is correct. And with all due respect, I fly AC many times throughout the course of the year. However, it is 95% business travel, and our firm has a long term contract with AC for reduced fares for our staff travel, so there is very little if anything that I can do to re-schedule flights on alternative Canadian carriers. We have started to use WJ for some domestic business travel, but bear in mind WJ does not serve many markets that our firm has clients or programs scheduled.

The times I flew AC for personal travel was, again, at a greatly reduced cost, and while I would be the first to actively support competition, I am NOT going to pay an additional CAD$600.00 - CAD$800.00 out of my own pocket, for example, to fly TS or SSV to Europe when I can get excellent return fares with AC. And I highly doubt that if you had the choice, you would utilize the charters when the savings for you would be this good.

And, in many cases, the charter carriers do not have the frequency to Europe that would fit in with my business and personal travel plans. So it is a matter of logistics.

Sidenote: Our travel department at our firm has increased the number of WJ bookings for clients domestic travel. We handle large corporate incentive
groups (for both sales incentives and meetings worldwide) and unfortunately, we do depend on AC
for frequency and multiple flights between certain sectors. It is next to impossible to block large group space with TS and SSV, and we have even looked into
chartering TS and SSV aircraft, yet due to their tight and demanding schedules, this was not possible.
Note: we also utilize KL/AF/LH/CX/LX/BA for our international corporate groups. It is not primarily
Air Canada ex Canadian gateways.

The corporate incentive/meeting world is a very different kettle of fish from regular retail travel. We move anywhere from 45 to 800 clients per program worldwide.

I still stand by what I stated, and would, and will actively book a competitor should that competitor
offer the service and frequency that fits my travel
itinerary.

Canadi>nBoy
YYZ
 
rootsgirl
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Fri May 17, 2002 6:39 am

Canadi>n Boy, we need you on Speakers Corner to reiterate exactly what you said. WE do have the choice.

Problem is though, if AC is going to honor rewards points on their "leisure"/charter flights then who is going to refuse that? No one in their right mind. After all, a deal is a deal.

Also, pleeeeeeese call Russ Payson and tell him to form a tour operator - Pronto!!!! Just kidding! Seriously, I hope SSV takes a good hard look at this. Transat is fine because they already have World of Vacations - their back is covered.

It just ticks me off to no end knowing that Air Canada is not happy holding 95% of the market. There should be laws against the blatant attempts to put other Canadian airlines under.

Go Leafs Go!!!!!!

 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Fri May 17, 2002 7:17 am

Rootsgirl, as I said before, if SSV or anyone else thinks that having aeroplan or any reward program makes THAT much of a diff, then they can go out and get one too. Thats how you stay competitive. Royal could not make it in the domestic market on its own, so they went out and got aeroplan, and that was still when it was a part of Air Canada. Now there is nothing stopping other airlines from trying to sign on with aeroplan, or airmiles or any other points program.

Its not that AC is not happy with 95% of the market as you put it ( I dont think that it is 95%) but they are a business and its their job to stay in the marketplace. Look at your own company, when C3 went TU SSV was first in line to pick up the pieces because they wanted to get a better footing in the charter market to stay competitive with Transat, and block out any other chances of a new start up. There are laws protecting the smaller airlines, and for the most part every time AC has tried to move in on the market they have been called on it. Why is it that every time AC tries to do something or improve their service everyone is quick to jump all over them for being anti competitive, and in the same breath they complain about how bad the service is.

"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
lasbagman
Posts: 343
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 8:55 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Fri May 17, 2002 8:15 am

Hi Rootsgirl !

Isnt Sunquest a sister company to Skyservice ?

I used to work for Canadi>n Holidays, until the very end.
Canadian Airlines sold us off and we were the money making division. We helped that airline out of tough times even before open skies.
After they sold us off to form World Of Vacations, they had really no tour operator to bail them out.

 
Guest

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Fri May 17, 2002 10:10 am

Rootsgirl wrote: "There should be laws against the blatant attempts to put other Canadian airlines under."

Better yet, some laws that hold back competition should be taken off the books. If an existing carrier wants to raise funds by offering a majority ownership stake to foreign investors, let it. If outsiders want to start a new airline in Canada, let them.

Both options are currently illegal in the airline industry -- but are perfectly acceptable in the railway industry.

Time for Ottawa and Washington, D.C. to end the double standard.

 
Guest

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Fri May 17, 2002 10:12 am

The best thing Canada can do for it's aviation industry is stop being so damn stubborn and self-righteous and OPEN UP THE MARKET TO FOREIGN AIRLINES!!! What a bunch of idiots (MP's/PM) with THEIR HEADS WAY UP THEIR A*SES! Keerice! The way it looks right now, WestJet is going to be the only one left in about five years!!!

Anyway thats what I think. Let United and American in there and sort things out and boost the Canadian economy. I know all you quasi-economists will cringe at my previous statement, but its true. Someone needs to get the ball rolling! Who better to do it than the two airlines with the most capital?!

Cameron
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Fri May 17, 2002 10:24 am

AA and UAL can just stay in the air as they are now....and if we are going to open up our market then you should open up yours...why is it that you people always want to get into every one elses business but never let anyone into yours.... Competition should be local, I dont think that foreign, especially US investment in start ups is good for anyone in Canada. What good will AA or UAL do?? They will stick to the rapidair routes where competition is more then plenty...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Fri May 17, 2002 11:35 am

Perhaps what SHOULD have happened was that AC was split into 2 or 3 competing airlines when it was privatized. Too late now of course.

Allowing foreign airlines into Canada likely isn't going to help the average consumer. Canada is after all a mature market. You will probably only get a few carriers offering a few weekly YYZ-YVR (Korean?) or YYZ-YUL (Austrian or OA?) as add-ons to their regular intl flights to Canada.

Foreign OWNERSHIP of Canadian-based carriers WOULD benefit Canada though. The most prosperous countries are those that offer free flow of capital in all industries. The Canadian airline industry would be stronger as a result. For instance, had AA been able to take a controlling interest in CP (as opposed to its 25%), it could have completely installed its own mgmt team (or run CP from DFW).....CP may still be around.

IMHO
Neil


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
rootsgirl
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Fri May 17, 2002 11:56 am

If foreign carriers came in here then say bye bye to all the Canadian airlines except for Air Canada.

I have said it before, Canada is not set up demographically to have foreign carriers come in here and start flying around. Our routes are very few and our destinations within this country are not very extensive.

Current Canadian airlines can barely survive now with Air Canada breathing down our necks. Imagine how many jobs would be lost for us Canadians if the foreign airlines came in.

Go Leafs Go! Amazing game!
 
westjet_8
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 11:38 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Fri May 17, 2002 12:45 pm

I think Milton is playing monopoly but not the fun boardgame type that everyone enjoys.
Canadian. RIP 1999
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

Milton *deserves* His Salary Here

Fri May 17, 2002 12:50 pm

For once, many of you pestering morons are making sense. I am pleased that AC's new move (among their other new moves lately) is being seen here as a by-product of them being a money-making enterprise. It's nice to know some of you acknowledge that Milton is doing a good job for his company. Diversifying their brand is, as CapnDan said, a very innovative move. I'll be willing to bet that most majors across the world will have similar brand distinctions in the future.

Part of my beef with many on this forum is that so many of you irrationally bash AC - which makes sense, from a consumer point of view (yes, I hate those long lines in Pearson too). But from a business point of view, they are doing everything they can to rectify a problem (highlighted by their devastating loss last year). Clearly, continuing as a full-service carrier was not profitable for them, and appropriate changes were necessary. In my view, Milton deserves EVERY penny of his salary. As many here would argue against (irrationally, in my view), they are NOT purposely trying to run other airlines into the ground (or conspire against Montreal, as FLYYUL chirps about continuously). The point here is:

***They are doing what they can to make money***

WJ fans should take it as a compliment that AC is mimicking their operation with Zip; clearly, full service wasn't working for AC out west, while WJ low fare WAS. AC identified this fact, and decided to make a change that will probably be very profitable for them.

As long as Ottawa doesn't implement re-regulation of the industry, free market competition will sort everything out. Survival of the fittest! RootsGirl saying "There should be laws against the blatant attempts to put other Canadian airlines under" is a very near sighted and poorly thought out point of view. Implementing more laws in Canadian aviation will hurt everyone, AC, WJ and everything in between.

One side note: foreign airlines around the world are losing money. Which one in their right mind would want to start a new service in Canada of all places? Many ppl are mistaken to think that AA or UA (who lost one BILLION in Q4 01) would just jump at the chance to service Canada. Newsflash: NO ONE would come in. They have their own problems to deal with.
buhh bye
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Fri May 17, 2002 10:00 pm

I agree that both AA and UA, in their current condition, have their plates full.

But this is not a matter of having a foreign airline come in and tack on a Canadian network to their existing operations. This is a matter of:

a.) Allowing Canadian carriers to raise the capital they need through whatever means possible. Even though 97% of the world economy is outside of Canada, Canadian carriers can only reach out to the rest of the world for capital only as long as they don't break the 25% foreign ownership limit.

b.) Giving foreigners the same priviledges we give them with the railways. Nobody seems to care that the Hudson Bay Railway, which services the Port of Churchill and numerous rail-dependent communities in northern Manitoba and Saskatchewan, is owned by a Denver-based company. Nobody in the U.S. seems to care much that the Illinois Central Railroad was bought out by CN a few years ago. Why the double standard when it comes to airlines?

c.) Giving struggling Canadian carriers the means they need to save themselves. As YYZ717 mentioned, we might still have a Canadian Airlines if AMR Corporation had been allowed to take control. The folks in Dallas (especially Bob Crandall) might well have been tough enough to cut out some of the nonsense, such as the practice of overloading short-haul, driving-distance routes like YYZ-YSB and YWG-YQT with far more capacity than there was demand for. (At the worst point, AC and CP had a combined total of about five flights a day each way between YWG and YQT, using F28s, Saabs, Dash-8s or CRJs, even though the O&D market was less than 50,000 passengers a year.)


 
chock head
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue May 07, 2002 1:11 pm

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Sat May 18, 2002 2:40 am

Great post by Mcdougald.Foreign ownership should be allowed here. I don`t think you would have seen a UA flight here overnight but you may have seen possible foreign ownership of an existing Canadian brand.
I think a lot of the people who say AC should be able to do whatever thay want to make money are the same people who do not think that foreign ownership should be allowed.AC benefits the most from the regs in Canada.They cry let the market place decide but are unwilling to compete on an open market.Let full deregulation take place and then see how much AC wants to compete in an open market.
 
superdawg
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 1:45 am

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Sat May 18, 2002 2:53 am

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Robert Milton in the US not to long ago pushing for full dereglation in N. America? I think Air Canada wants to allow foreign ownership as they could get much needed funding to expand. I then think carriers like United would buy into Air Canada instead of expanding here.
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada's Leisure Airline

Sat May 18, 2002 2:54 am

I agree with Rootsgirl. Canada does not have the deomographics or domestic route network to support U.S carriers coming in and "setting up shop" here. Let's face it, they would concentrate on YYZ-YUL/YYZ-YYC/YVR, which is the MAJORITY of our network. So where would that leave AC? I agree that if they did, you could be sure Air Canada would be in serious, serious jeapordy. And no matter how I or others feel about Uncle Miltie, I still wish to see Air Canada exist, under different management.

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