boeing767-300
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Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:16 am

According to Airliner World they are still somewhat short of arch rival Boeing in Deliveries.

This is definately not intended to be an A v B war but to illustrate to all those that have incorrectly stated that A & B are of equal nature or even leading Boeing. It may happen in the future but not at the moment. Such statments are incorrect and below are the facts for 2001 year.

Airbus Deliveries totalled 321 or 39.15% Boeing had 499 deliveries or 60.85% of the market.

Airbus would have needed at least 50% more than the 321 to get close to the 499 of Boeing.

For a more in depth analysis


717 & A318

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Despite the knockers 717 had a good year with 47 units and with no A318 yet there wasn't really any competion (RJs excluded)
737BBJs were 19 units to 0


737-700 & A319

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Very close at 90 737-700s to 89 A319s. Nothing in it but then the 90 does not include the 19 BBJs many of which were 700s. (several 600s included total)
738-800 & A320

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This one was quite suprising with the 738 dominating the A320. The margin 155 738 to 119 A320s.

A321 & 737-900

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The A321 wins this one but the 739 with 21 units has done reasonably well against the A321 with 45 when you consider the 757 is probably the A321s competitor.

The 736s which were not many were included in the 737 talley. Total 73G versus A32x was 285 73G to 253 A32X only thirty two units apart.

Boeing 757-200 & 300

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There were 41 757 sales (9 of which were 300s) Not bad for an old design which equates to more than A330(32) or A340 (25)

B767 & A330

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Despite the knockers 767 achieved 36 sales (5 762 25 763(4 300F) and 6 764. A330 is not really comparable to B777 so we will include it here with 32 sales. Suprizing result for the 767. Reading these posts you would have thought it was finished!!!

744-400 & A340

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The mighty 747 shouldn't really be compared to A340 but with 32 units(19 pass 13 freighters) it has significantly outsold the newer A340.

Boeing 777-200 & 300

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This just leaves the 777 with 57 units delivered (3 300s)
which is the same as A330 & A340 combined. If you compare combined A340 A330 to B777 then this leaves 41 757 36 767 and 32 747s unanswered with an Airbus competitor.

Also there were 1 MD11F to Lufthansa and 11 A300Fs as well.

Those are the facts for 2001 according to Airliner World monthly summaries.



 
ryanb741
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:19 am

Airbus were ahead in sales, not deliveries.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
donder10
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:20 am

Airbus has less construction capacity than Boeing so can cause a bit of a backup of orders.
 
racko
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:22 am

Airbus tries to keep always the same employee staff in order to guarantee for high-quality.

Boeing uses "Hire-and-fire", they hire employees once there is need, give them a little practice, then let them build planes and if they are not needed anymore they get fired.

That's why Boeing deliviers so much more aircraft.
 
boeing767-300
Posts: 621
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:24 am

What good are sales if you are not producing them.

What is customer service if you have a big backlog and can't produce.

Airlines will end up cancelling and going with the oppisition because they can deliver.  Smokin cool

 
ryanb741
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:25 am

No, an airline orders a/c for delivery a couple of years down the line (at least). Therefore, in a couple of years expect airbus to be delivering more a/c.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
EGGD
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Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:26 am

'Not intended as an A.v.B war' BULL, and you know it. You have to post completely biased facts that don't represent anything of fact, and this is just to 'spite' all the airbus 'lovers' on this forum.

Goes straight into the 'suggest deletion' pile...

This is definately not intended to be an A v B war but to illustrate to all those that have incorrectly stated that A & B are of equal nature or even leading Boeing. It may happen in the future but not at the moment. Such statments are incorrect and below are the facts for 2001 year.

LMAO! Thats a classic, state that it is not an A.v.B war and then spout out a load of pro-Boeing crap. And every 'example' of deliveries you posted was written with a huge emphasis on 'Boeing is best'...

Can't you just see it as a level playing field?
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:29 am

Dude, you've already started a AvB war with those figures  Big grin

In Arsene we trust!!
 
Greg
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:30 am

If you think about what each has accomplished, they are both exceedingly well run organizations in terms of revenue and production--and will only getter better (and more bitter) as time progresses.

Congratulations to both sides of the Atlantic.
 
widebody
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:33 am

It's well documented that Boeing are well ahead in deliveries, and will continue to be for another two or three years.......the reason is clearly more orders........ Airbus has grown in the orders field for the last number of years, and finally earned more orders than Boeing for the first time in 1999......before that, Boeing always had more orders than Airbus, and now therefore, they have more deliveries......

Some people say deliveries are more important, because the money transfer doesn't occur until the handover......some say orders are more important, as that points to where the company is going in the future.....shareholders for example, will go for orders, and not deliveries......

One big point to note however, was that following the Sept. 11th issues, Airbus were listed as being in a better financial position than Boeing, as Boeing had about 120 billion in backlog orders, Airbus had 140 billion...........

I see the point about cancellations, but on average, the overall rate of cancellation will be similar between two manufacturers.......

Rgds,
WB.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:35 am

I just found it amusing that the implication was I could call up Boeing, order a couple of 777's and expect them to be couriered to my house first thing tomorrow morning!  Big thumbs up I agree airbus do not currently offer this option Big grin Maybe they could use the Japanese 'vending machine' delivery model - simply put your cash in, press the correct button and out comes your brand new airliner!!!  Big thumbs up
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
eugdog
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:38 am

Please, please do not confuse orders with sales. Aiirbus is ahead in orders not sales

The accounting rules are (Enron not withstanding!) is that Sales are recognized when goods are delivered and there is no substantial further obligations (such as warranties) on behalf of the seller.

It remains to be seen whether Airbus will actually out deliver Boeing!
 
boeing767-300
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Ryanb741

Fri May 17, 2002 1:46 am

You have missed the point somewhere. Are you counting orders like... tesnas 30 A32x for Australia.

How long has it been more financially viable to collect large sums of money for "orders" rather than actual deliveries.

Go back to sleep but read Eugdogs post first.

As stated the facts are there and you have the benefit of several hours work!!!
 
Guest

RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:51 am

You mentioned "knocker". Can you post a picture of a nice big pair please.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:51 am

Right, my mistake. Sales have NOTHING to do with the future viability of the organisation. Lets just disregard them all, afterall, who cares about the future eh? It just doesn't count......  Big grin
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 1:55 am

Airbus is rapidly catching boeing in sales and orders, the 737 has always been a hot seller for boeing and will continue to be so in the forthcoming future. But airbus is another option for airlines so they look to them for their requirements. 767 orders have come to a trickle while the A330 is selling well with a lot airlines. The 777 outdoes both the A330/340 combination, it's a real winner for boeing.

The 100-seater market doesn't seem to be doing too well for airbus and boeing (717/A318), i don't know why, maybe because airlines are prefering the regional jets in the 84 seat category.

Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
boeing767-300
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 11:23 pm

Eggd

Fri May 17, 2002 2:45 am

EGGD
'Not intended as an A.v.B war' BULL, and you know it. You have to post completely biased facts that don't represent anything of fact, and this is just to 'spite' all the airbus 'lovers' on this forum.

Don't worry EGGD, when Airbus actually deliver more planes than Boeing... I won't cry like you I will accept it as fact.

The reason I posted the FACTS as per 2001 is because of totally blind patriotic pro airbus people like yourself
 Nuts
I got sick and tired of hearing the same crap defending brash unsubstantiated crap that you read on these posts.

Accept the facts maybe 2002 will be different!!! Big grin
 
David_itl
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Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 3:11 am

Can you explain the point of comparing the 717 against the A318 when you yourself say "and with no A318 yet there wasn't really any competition". (Edited quote to correct spelling)

I'm surprised you didn't compare the 747-400 against the A380 using your criteria for comparison!

David/MAN
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 3:18 am

I think the competition goes something like this:

A318 v 717/737-600
A319 v 737-700
A320 v 737-800
A321 v 737-900
A310 v 757-200
A300 v 757-300/767-200/767-300
A330-200 v 767-400
A330-300 v 777-200A
A340-300 v 777-200B
A340-500 v 777-200LR
A340-600 v 747-400/777-300
A380-800 v 747-400 (?)

 
boeing767-300
Posts: 621
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 3:20 am

the key word David/MAN is Deliveries... how many years till A380 delivery?  Big grin
 
Joni
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 7:01 am


In terms of new orders, Airbus has had more than 50% of the market in 1999 and 2001, Boeing had more share in 2000.

In 2001, taking into account cancellations, Airbus had about 50.2% (in other words, a very slim majority) of airframe figures, but since Airbus sold many more widebodies they had about 55-60% in terms of value.

Orders become deliveries in a few years' time. Of course, since Boeing currently delivers more planes (reflecting the fact that a few years back they had the lion's share of orders) Boeing emphasizes deliveries, and since Airbus is doing well in orders they empnasize them.

The backlog is a list of future revenue, so it is in itself an extremely important asset for a manufacturer. Orders grow the backlog. Both Boeing and Airbus estimate that they will be roughly on par in deliveries (in terms of airframe numbers) in 2004-5 or so.

 
AvObserver
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 10:18 am

I see that Boeing lost a number of competitions in 2001, a key one being the huge $8.5 billion order from International Lease and Finance that went completely to Airbus. I feel that Boeing is gradually losing the battle with Airbus, which can still get 33% funding for new transport development from its' partners' governments. This gives Airbus pricing leverage that Boeing can't match, witness reports that Airbus was pricing the all-new, high tech A380 below that of Boeing's aborted 747X. Airbus went from nothing to parity with Boeing in little over 30 years; in another 30, Boeing may well be out of that business. So long as Airbus has this financial advantage, Boeing's hands are tied and its' market share keeps eroding. It still has strong sellers like the 737 and 777 but unless the Sonic Cruiser is a huge hit, I see Airbus becoming the dominant commercial aircraft maker in just a few years. I think the U.S. should either renegotiate the 1992 agreement with the European Union that allows Airbus to continue to receive these government loans or provide Boeing with the same type of loans. The U.S. needs to do something to reverse the decline of its' important commercial aircraft industry.
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 12:28 pm

This is not a A vs B..........................yeah OK.
 
OO-AOG
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 3:28 pm

Don't really understand the point of comparing aircraft that are not real competitors (747 vs A340 as an example) and where are the figures for the A380?.
I am glad that Boeing's sales figures are good though.
What is very significant for Airbus are the good sales figures of the A380 and new 'all Airbus fleet' orders such as the SAA deal, swapping from all B. to all A.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 5:43 pm

AvObserver, Boeing is allowed to get the same 33% Airbus can apply for, and they do it. This is part of the greement you mentioned, both sites are allowed to get the same.

And many people in this forum seem to forget that Boeing gets its subsidies in the form of military orders, just to mention the B767 Tanker deal which has been cited several times to be far above a fair value. These are direct subsidies, at least in Europe. Don´t know how you would call them.

BTW, anyone able to tell me why we have THREE A vs B discussions within three days??

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
2cn
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 6:45 pm

And many people in this forum seem to forget that Boeing gets its subsidies in the form of military orders, just to mention the B767 Tanker deal which has been cited several times to be far above a fair value.

How is the 767 tanker deal a subsidry? Yes, the MAY be paying more, but then they also according to a press release by Boeing are not paying much more. They will have the right to pay a small ammount more at the end of the lease to just outright buy the planes- or they could wait till 2011 and buy the planes at what ever the going price is then, which quite possibly may be more then what they would pay at the end of the lease. The Airforce is going to order the planes- whether it is via the lease and get them right now, or just purchase them at the going rate in 2011, which by then the current tankers would be very old.
 
M27
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:25 am

RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 8:18 pm

Flying Tiger:

I believe you are wrong about Boeing getting the same 33% government "loan" that Airbus gets. Give me an example where the government has financed 33% of a non military aircraft.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 8:23 pm

M27, read carefully: they are ALLOWED to get it, when they don´t apply for it or the government refuses it it is their problem, not Airbus´.

Seems that the typical US bias that every company in Europe is subsidized has surfaced again...

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
M27
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 8:38 pm

Flying Tiger:

So then you agree that your statement "and they do it"
is incorrect! Give me an example of where it occurred or don't say it.
 
boeing767-300
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 11:23 pm

OO-AOG

Fri May 17, 2002 8:47 pm

OO-AOG
Don't really understand the point of comparing aircraft that are not real competitors (747 vs A340 as an example) and where are the figures for the A380?.

The key word is DELIVERIES  Nuts

How many A380s have been delivered ))-AOG  Smokin cool

With regard to A380 sales The marketing team at AI have done a good job but all will be for nothing if the aircraft does not live up to the promises. A promise of profitablity when 60% full may be hard to keep especially in regard to the weight problems currently being experienced..see http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/823418/

Why shouldn't the 747 be compared to the A340. They are both long range quads that don't need ETOPS. I am as suprised as you the the 744 "out delivered" A340 in 2001.  Wow!





 
David_itl
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RE: Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....

Fri May 17, 2002 9:13 pm

How many A318s have been delivered?

David/MAN