ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 2:08 am

we can now breath a sigh of releif,us officials will not let pilots carry firearms in the cockpit.

this is good news for all, and i know some will not feel some of our joys.
let the forum know how you feel.







ual 777 contrail
 
Boeing757/767
Posts: 2179
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 11:05 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 2:13 am

I am relieved of this. Like guns in homes, the dangers of guns in cockpits far outweigh any benefits.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 2:18 am

i agree,and some of these so called professionals cave under pressure like the rest of us.all we need is a scared pilot at 39,000ft with a gun.




IMO




ual 777 contrail
 
jjbiv
Posts: 1203
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:58 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 2:22 am

The only thing worse than a scared pilot with a gun is a disabled pilot being removed from the controls of Afghanistan's newest guided missile system.

There are risks inherent in letting people fly aircraft full of other people and their property. There are also risks inherent in weapons of ANY kind. American's need a spine and a willingness to accept responsibility and risk before and REAL progress beyond the cheap facade we now have will be made.

joe
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 2:30 am

I trust pilots enough to fly me around and I would trust them enough to carry a gun if they received proper training. Add another item to the list of things Bush has done to hack me off.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Guest

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 2:34 am

Well, I'd like to be convinced first (if at all possible) of the merits of aircrew being armed; my instincts tell me it isn't a good idea, and that it is better that the aircrew remain in the flightdeck at all times, whilst attempts are made to prevent freaks from boarding an aircraft in the first place.
 
EGFF
Posts: 2082
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2001 5:53 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 2:35 am

For the sake of the pilots i would say that a gun in the cockpit would be suitable, if they can keep intruders out then there will be no hijackings....just my view  Smile
EGFF
All together or not at all
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 2:36 am

757 300.

I'm 6'2 240lbs. I would have no problem taking a weapon from some 100lb female pilot as she walks from gate to gate. Why would you introduce weapons in a secure enviroment? The doors will be bullet proof eventually.
If someone gives you a problem in back, turn it upside down.
This is why we don't let prison guards carry weapons inside. Criminal/Terrorist would love for someone to carry in the weapons for them.
 
mlsrar
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 7:41 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 4:38 am

I am relieved of this. Like guns in homes, the dangers of guns in cockpits far outweigh any benefits.

I believe the topic was limited to cockpits, not homes. A post like that is ripe for deletion.

I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
flyingbronco05
Posts: 3484
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 11:43 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 4:47 am

I, too, am against guns in the cockpit. Not worth it. Glad to hear it was resolved.
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 4:52 am

I agree with Padcrasher. By letting pilots have guns, you are solving a hijacker's #1 logistical problem. The people who planned the 9/11 attacks are genocidal not merely homicidal. What if the hijackers grabbed the infants on a plane and threatened to kill them all if the pilot didn't surrender his/her weapon? What is a pilot to do? He/she cannot surrender the gun in theory. But faced with actual situation, what would one do? There are hundreds of bad scenarios that come out of having guns on a plane. How would the government regulate it? Resources are strained as is.

Mlsrar, you must be joking about the 'ripe for deletion' business. Right?
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 4:57 am

Very sensible, the focus of security should be to prevent the hi-jackers getting on in the first place.
Better cockpit doors and cabin crew training also.
 
hkg82
Posts: 1301
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 4:24 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 5:20 am

I personally thought it was a bad idea. I'm glad they've ruled to not allow pilots to carry guns with them on duty. It's not necessary to arm the flight crew. A gun in the cockpit (say that over & over again, sounds very disconcerting) would most likely cause needless distraction & anxiety and that would negatively impact the pilot's performance. And even if the pilots were comfortable with this, just what would having a gun in the cockpit accomplish? Instead why not focus resources on reinforcing the cockpit doors to strengthen them & make them bulletproof, so that no unauthorized person could gain access into the cockpit? There are better ways to deal with the issue of air safety than having to resort to arming pilots.

I’m a realist & understand this is a sensitive topic in the US, but I hope people can understand my viewpoint. If the DOT did allow pilots to carry firearms, I would’ve been disappointed but would’ve understood their reasoning. I just think it’s not the right path to take in tackling air safety.

Hkg82.




 
CMK10
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:56 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 5:46 am

I think pilots should have been given the option to have guns. There should be one gun in the cockpit, locked up and only the captian and first officer have the key, the gun is NOT removed from the aircraft.
DC-10's Forever
"Traveling light is the only way to fly" - Eric Clapton
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 6:10 am

Does anyone one here realize that guns were allowed in US cockpits until the 1970's? Many, many pilots carried personal sidearms. Up until the 1950's pilots were REQUIRED to be armed if they carried the US mail. So it's been done before and I've NEVER heard any instance of an accidental discharge or any other supposed grave danger. Military pilots carry loaded sidearms into combat and have since the airplane was invented. And I've never heard of an aircraft lost due to a accidental pistol discharge.

What would a gun in the cockpit accomplish? Deterrence. Terrorists will be less inclined to rush a cockpit door knowing they face a gun on the other side. And should they chose to rush a cockpit the strapped in flight crew will actually have a chance to live.

Taking a pistol from a "100lb female pilot" as she walks down the concourse will not be easy if the sidearms are issued for each flight or kept on the aircraft. There are logistical procedures that can make sure the firearms stay where they need to be.

UAL 777 Contrail - You are a pilot basher. Your "so called professionals cave under pressure" comment is typical of other bits you have written. What's the problem? Do we make too much money? Was a pilot mean to you?

Padcrasher. "turn it upside down"? Are you aware that a jetliner cannot be yanked around like a fighter? Excessive manoeuvring to disable terrorists will probably kill everyone on board when the airframe breaks up or the wings come off. You just can't split-S a 767.

If offered the training to carry a sidearm I do not know if I will accept. (The program as proposed is voluntary.) I really have made up my mind since it is all talk just now. BUT I know it would be a deterrent. AND I trust my fellow airman.



 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3540
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 6:24 am

This is a typical American way to deal with a problem - 'ahh just stick a gun in the cockpit and everything will be ok'- WAKE UP - it's this attitude that caused the problems in the first place....when will you realise that fighting fire with fire only gets you burned......
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
BA DC-10
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2001 8:40 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 6:37 am

I agree completely with Leezyjet, this is typical American response, i.e. just shoot it or give someone a gun and everything is ok. It must also be remembered that putting a gun aboard the cabin of a civil aircraft is illegal in a number of countries and therefore even if this was made law it could only be operated domestically...
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3540
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 7:17 am

Thanx BA DC-10....I'm just waiting for the yanks to see my post - should get the sparks flying Big grin

Was just thinkin.....In most Cockpit's, there is a rather large fire-axe - if the crew don't get chance to reach for that - how they going to get chance to reach for a gun ??? anyone actually thought of that ???
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 8:06 am

md88captain,
i am not a complete pilot basher,i work with pilots on a daily basis and i see the way they behave and i have formed my own opinions of that particular job group.if you dont like it then dont respond.i will give my opinion of a topic without feeling like i may be making a few people angry.and i would hope you would feel free to express yourself with writing your opinions for all of us to see.

when a pilots ego is bigger than his paycheck then i have a problem with them.the way agents at UNITED and other airlines that i have friends working for get treated by pilots should not surprise you.this isnt when grampa flew the old super connies when flying was a very prestigious way to travel.pilots have braught it upon themselves,they are in fact overpaid.an i jeoulus of them,no not really.between my wife and i both working for the airline and a few real estate investments we are doing fine.

an i bitter? yes maybe a little. "summer from hell" ring a bell? thanks to UAL'S lovely and very forgetful pilots, we as CSR'S went through the wringer for them.yes i guess i am in a way a pilot basher.and by your name md88captain i havent had the pleasure of dealing with you.but i will say when you want me to issue an omc card you will always find it in your heart to call me sir.when you dont need a thing......well you will ignore me like i dont exsist.so yes,most of you fly boys do irritate me,will i still help you if you need help?sure i dont have anything against you persay just when you don the stripes and let your ego fly.


and like the last post before me said,we as americans do result to force in these situations.i disagree with the comments made by leezyjet,if these planes would have slammed into buckingham palace or another landmark those comments wouldnt have been made.your BA,VS,BD pilots would have maybe said the same thing about carry guns.
cheers, ual 777 contrail
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 8:49 am

Oh %%$$%$&!

Here come the America bashers again. You do you realize this measure was turned down?

Maybe we should take our lessons on protecting people from the Danish military?
 
flymia
Posts: 6806
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 9:30 am

First all aircraft should have bullet proof doors like Jet Blue. Then like UA the pilots should have Stung guns or som sort of protection in the Airplane. And what about the fire extingisher in the cockpit. And if none of these things work wich is very unlikely then i would have guns. But only with proper trainning.

Excuse my spelling.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Soku39
Posts: 1731
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 9:49 am

I personally think it was a good decision to not give pilots guns. Only bad things could come of it. A stun gun maybe but if you want to secure it correctly that means its gonna take time to get it unsecured and fire to fire it even if a pilot had a fast reaction time.

Plus what do you think the odds that terrorists are gonna try this again if I were them I'd keep it random. Spend money and time strengthening other infrastructure
The Ohio Player
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 10:06 am

If all this bad stuff would happen if the flight deck had a gun, why didn't it happen in the 1930s when pilots on airmail routes were required to carry a gun to protect the mail?

Is guess it really better to chop a guy to death with a crash axe, if you can. That has a certain "Braveheart" mediaeval quality to it.
 
Fokker Lover
Posts: 523
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 10:05 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 10:55 am

I believe most of our pilots are military reservists or retired military. They are already trained in the proper use of firearms. It would not have been a big deal for
them to carry. As a mechanic that picks up and delivers several aircraft a day at the gates. I have lost count of how many crash axes I have had to remove from between the captain's seat and the center pedestal. It's obvious that the flight crews want to be armed, but the U.S. Government has again bowed down to the vocal minority.

To BA DC-10
When Hitler decided that he wanted London for a summer retreat. The Brits came crying to us for arms. Individual U.S. citizens came to their rescue by shipping them their own personal firearms. When the unpleasantries were over the British Government
AGAIN disarmed their loyal subjects. For being such a cultured bunch, you sure are slow learners.
10,000 years ago we would have eaten you. Today, we drag you along and allow you to pollute the gene pool.
 
Delta737
Posts: 469
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 1999 11:23 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 11:18 am

Umm, wow.

If you're afraid of a pilot caving under pressure, I guess I wouldn't suggest hopping on an airliner ever again!

You know, lots of pressure in the cockpit.

Doug Taylor
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3376
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 12:40 pm

You know, in typical airliners.net fashion this thread has taken a turn for the worse. It has turned into a pilot bashing political debate over a mute point. Even if this bill were to have passed, very few airlines if any would have adopted it as company policy. I know my company and NW were against fire arms in the cockpit through and through.

As a grossly under paid airline pilot (no Ual777contrail we're not all over paid - stop your broad generalizations about pilots and take a step back) I don't know really, how I would feel about a gun on the flight deck. True, I do have a very sharp crash axe near me and that's about it. But further protection would be comforting should the door be penetrated. This issue ranks up there with abortion and welfare - tons of opinions, no real right answer and much opportunity for debate.

For all the non Americans out there, this isn't a venue for you people to declare your personal wars against the USA. Might be interesting to see what Tony Blair and the rest of Europes solcialist governments think about this issue?


AZJ
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 12:47 pm

I am all for guns being allowed in teh cockpit. Number 1... they pilots are not going to have them at their side... one will be stored in the cockpit. Thus, no one is going to gank it from a 100 lb female pilot on the way to the concourse. Number 2... pilots are some of the most calm emotioned and level headed people around...most of them in the US being former military pilots. Thus, the cracking underpressure bit is no problem. Finally... we will never have another hijacking in a US cockpit if they allow a gun up there... as the hijacker will be dead as they are trying to make it through the door. There is already a razor sharp axe up there for crying out loud.

How many El Al planes have you heard of being hijacked recently, eh? How about them apples?
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Guest

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 4:19 pm

El-Al pilots have no weapon.

There are armed sky marshalls on every El-Al flight, and the cockpit doors are reinforced and locked.
 
Pilot1113
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:42 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 4:39 pm

Myth 1:

The cockpit doors currently are or will be bulletproof and fortified.

Reality:

Only 1 airline, JetBlue Airways, has fully fortified their cockpit doors. Otherwise, the doors are the same except now they have a metal door jam installed. That door jam is nothing more than a metal bar that swings down, horizontally, across the middle of the door.

Although the airlines are required to have bulllet, granade, and axe proof doors by next May, my predicition is that this deadline will come and go quietly without any real changes being made.

Myth 2:

The new screeners are more capable and skilled than they were on September 11th.

Reality:

The government hasn't even begun to train screeners. A recent Washington Post article states that the TSA isn't planning on starting training until at least next January. We still have the same screeners on job that were there before and now they can't get fired and, in some cases, they have received a 10-fold raise.

Myth 3:

The Federal Air Marshalls will protect every flight, so we don't need to arm airline pilots.

Reality:

According to the FAA it is preferable to have 4-5 FAMs per flight. With 8,000+ flights airborne during the day that would mean we would 45,000 FAMs at the bare minimum. I would even go futher and double that number for sick outs, vacation time, and scheduling conflicts. The TSA is having trouble hiring the perferred 60,000 screeners.

There is no way that we could possibly put FAMs on every flight and up to the perferred number. The best we could possibly hope for is 1 per flight.

-----------------------------------------------------

People, nothing really has changed in airline security. We've just wasted a few billion dollars on another agency, the TSA, that has no motivation to improve security. What we really got from this agency is a huge mistrust towards flight crew. I really feel safer knowing that my pilots have been subjected to the tightest security possible, while my seatmate went through security without so much as a glance. That should prevent future hijackings! Yay we have solved the problem and made the skies safer for all, because no passenger would ever hijack an airliner!

Oh... let's see the alternative: being shot down. You would choose to not arm the pilots (remember chances are very good that an FAM is NOT -- I repeat, NOT -- on your flight) and, if hijacked, get shot down? That's very good logic right there!

- Neil Harrison
 
POSITIVE RATE
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:31 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 4:56 pm

I think 1 firearm in the cockpit would be acceptable. It doesn't have to be a gun firing real bullets- what about rubber bullets? This would ensure the integrity of the a/c is maintained if needed to be used. If they are planning on giving pilots guns then it's best if they don't tell anyone about it, not the media, general public not anyone has to know only the captain. 1 gun could be kept in a locked case say underneath the captains seat and in combination with a strengthened/bullet proof cockpit door it should work! Many people that i know support the idea and would feel safer on an airplane with a gun.
 
Delta737
Posts: 469
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 1999 11:23 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 5:02 pm

Personally, I wanted the option of a firearm.

It wouldn't be used until the butthole tries to enter the cockpit.

Once the cockpit is breached, BAM! Take that!

Land the plane, clean off the gray matter from the bulkhead and go about my day.

The weapons WOULD NOT have been used to go back in the cabin and fight the terrorists. They'd have ony been used in a last ditch attempt to retain control of the cockpit before an F-16 shoots us out of the sky.

This should have been left up to the cockpit crew, the FBI and airlines -- not politicized, and I personally feel the general public shouldn't have say whatsoever.

John Q Public doesn't dictate how I perform a V1 Cut, they surely shouldn't dictate how I defend my cockpit.

Doug Taylor
(hasn't seen an air marshall in a long time!)
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 5:18 pm

hmmm....what good is a gun if there are a couple of hijackers with several hundred hostages??

SailorOrion
 
Pilot1113
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:42 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 5:56 pm

>>what good is a gun if there are a couple of hijackers with several hundred hostages??

For starters, the hijackers are always going to have to their backs to someone. Next time, try not to have your back to someone on board an airliner -- it's next to impossible (unless you're against a bulkhead, but then you've gotta move at some point).

>>It wouldn't be used until the butthole tries to enter the cockpit.

Exactly! If the hijacker manages to breach the door, it's a good bet it's probably hindering his efforts to get in. It will probably be hanging by the hinges or some how jammed in the narrow door frame. The hijacker would make himself a great target as he's stumbling over the door.

The time the hijacker spends trying to break down the door, the pilots could be prepping the weapon and iniating a descent to a suitable airport. One would fly the airplane, while the other defends the cockpit.

We trust airline pilots (a good majority anyhow) to fly F-16s with live missles, why can't we trust them with a simple handgun?

- Neil Harrison
 
Delta737
Posts: 469
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 1999 11:23 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 6:24 pm

Sailor Orion-

What good is a gun with several hijackers and several hundred hostages you ask?

It means that if he attempts to come crashing through my cockpit door to kill the captain and I and commandere the aircraft, there's a 9mm waiting for him.

It affords the crew the BEST chance to get the aircraft on the ground at the nearest suitable airport, pull the fire handles, blow the bottles and let the experts on the ground handle the situation.

The ONLY change now is that we might be able to get a couple of radio calls out before they enter the cockpit because of the reinforcements. Once that lousy bum is in the cockpit, hasta la vista!

Doug Taylor
 
keesje
Posts: 8594
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 6:48 pm

We trust airline pilots (a good majority anyhow) to fly F-16s with live missles, why can't we trust them with a simple handgun?

Pilots are just people ; read some of the reports :
http://www.airdisaster.com/

Sometimes they had a bad sleep, just divorced their wive, had a flat tyre on their car, bad rating from their boss, headache etc.

Lets not increase the risk of something going wrong ..

Americans have something special with guns, they love/hate them ....
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
BA DC-10
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2001 8:40 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 7:38 pm

Clearly we wouldnt have had people flying planes into buckingham palace, probably because we never used to let people with four inch blades board planes taking off in Britain. When i was at LAX last year, they let me take aboard with a pen knife, and i was also able to go out through security and back in without being checked. Beofre that incident i got stopped at BHX for having a very blunt envelope knife. Im not slagging off Americans im simply trying to make the point that whether wrong or right, the Americans have a liberal standpoint to firearms which is certainly not shared by most European countries, indeed in the UK handguns are banned...
 
Joni
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 8:17 pm


I'm delighted that so many here don't approve of the gun-in-cockpit idea. I was expecting a more receptive mood for this initiative.

For the record, I agree that the guns won't solve the threat of hijacking. It's too easy, in the cramped interior of a plane, to just use an FA as a human shield and take the gun from the pilot, whom whey can first disable with pepper spray if necessary.

The reinforced door is can be a good idea, but in practice the terrorists can probably coerce the pilots to open these unless the plane is very near an airport.

In fact well trained, strong young men can in all likelyhood hijack an airplane even without any particular weapons. And this is even if there are reinforced doors and guns in cockpits. If there are guns in the cockpit, they'll just take them, but they don't need them.

 
eugdog
Posts: 426
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2001 11:32 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 8:36 pm

Guns in the Flight Deck

This is a classic example of shutting the doors after the horses have bolted. Hijacking is not a realistic option any more. How can terrorist seriously break through a re-inforced cockpit door before passengers overwhelm them and the pilot using agressive manouvers to throw every one to their feet.

No plan works twice. The hijackers on sept 11 were wholly reliant on the fact that passengers and crews would be compliant. This is no longer the case.

I am more worried about a hijacker rushing the flight deck as one of the flight crew leaves to go the rest room. I cannot believe that pilots can remain on the flight deck for 7-9 hours on long haul flights!
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3540
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Wed May 22, 2002 10:48 pm

VS also have re-inforced cockpit doors (first airline in world to do it after 11/09)...and just today have announced that they will be installing cctv camera's outside the flight deck on every a/c by spring 2003. The A346 will already have them when they are delivered, and the rest of the fleet will get them soon.

Thing is tho, how will the flight crew react to seeing live pictures of some stewardess or child being held hostage outside the door, would they then keep the door closed ?? - I think they may be better off not seeing that (if it were ever to happen), less chance of them opening the door then, if they can't actually see that going on outside....

But on the other hand, it would give them some advanced warning to have that fire-axe ready, should anyone try to get in.

Also - what good is just making the door bomb/bullet/axe proof - wouldn't they just take out the walls around it that aren't protected instead ?

I think having something like a pepper spray would be safer, and would still disable an intruder long enough for help to intervene (what did Mr. Myagi say in Karate Kid ? - "Man can't see - can't fight ! Big grin), and would not need to be kept under lock and key like any sort of gun/stun gun, so would be more at hand should anyone manage to get in, plus then the intruder would still be alive to face the consequenses provided the pax didn't beat them to death !!.
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
ptica2000
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2000 1:48 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Thu May 23, 2002 12:29 am

No way. Pilots can even not react so fast and shoot the introoder. I think that bulletproof cockpit wall is enough. If some terorist has a wish to blow up himself then he can do it also in the cabin or lavatories.

For conclusion I think that pilots could not use the guns so fast therefore they are useless. Reinforced cockpit walls first.

Nejc
 
Delta737
Posts: 469
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 1999 11:23 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Thu May 23, 2002 1:27 am

I wish we could ask one of the murdered pilots if they'd support legislation to put guns in the cockpit.

What do you figure their answer would be?

I really don't think people realize how serious the situation is.

Doug Taylor
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Thu May 23, 2002 2:04 am

Politically correct solutions went out the window on 9/11.

I'm absolutedly disgusted and shocked with this decision. Just one less impediment to these suicidal maniacs.

Once the hijacker attempts to takeover an airplane, all bets are off. All the perfect world ideas of "keep em off the plane in the first place" are out the window. We've just preempted our ace in the hole last line of defense by Washington politicians whom apparently know more about commanding an airliner than the pilot.

By the way, how many flights does El-Al operate daily as opposed to U.S. airlines? Sky marshalls of the same magnitude are a pipedream.

You're only as good as your last departure.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

Leezyjet

Thu May 23, 2002 2:15 am

This is a typical American way to deal with a problem - 'ahh just stick a gun in the cockpit and everything will be ok'- WAKE UP - it's this attitude that caused the problems in the first place....when will you realise that fighting fire with fire only gets you burned......

It's this attitude that caused them to fly airplanes into buildings?

Beyond your ignorant, meaningless and pointless cliques, what the hell are you talking about?
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3540
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Thu May 23, 2002 6:56 am

FDXmech

It's the attitude that america is the best and tries to be the world's police and the rest of the world should live it's life the way america does....you don't see many terrorists attacking Switzerland do you ? Why ? - Because they keep their noses out of other countries business.....
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 10:09 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Thu May 23, 2002 6:59 am

well, USAF crews are armed for this very reason to prevent hijackings but we do go through a course and are required to qualify every year, also there are enough crew members to carry weapons without the pilots being armed.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Thu May 23, 2002 7:23 am

Leezy,

you need to keep your political views out of this aviation forum.


Somebody from the UK complaining about the US being the World's policeman.
You're disrespecting a lot good American men who died defending your Island.

I'm sick of anti-American slant this Airliners.net allows to go on and on.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Thu May 23, 2002 9:50 am

It's the attitude that america is the best and tries to be the world's police and the rest of the world should live it's life the way america does....you don't see many terrorists attacking Switzerland do you ? Why ? - Because they keep their noses out of other countries business.....

Did Swiss neutrality deter WW2?

Did Swedish neutrality deter WW2?

Did European appeasement policy sate Hitlers appetite for war and conquest?

Some nations have the choice of remaining out of harms way, yet others such as the U.S. and U.K realize this is not an option. In other words, if not us, then who? They've learned from the past that tyranny cannot be ignored, it won't go away.

America being the world policeman is not something its citizens gloat over or even actually want. Yet it's a job that must be done and unfortunatly many other wealthy industrial countries opt to sit on the sidelines. If all nations pitched in instead of sitting on the fence waiting for the U.S. intersede, then throwing barbs at us, as if this will curry favor from the enemy are sadly mistaken. History has shown us this.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Joni
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Thu May 23, 2002 5:44 pm


FDXmech,

Let's keep this aviation-related. There are many newsgroups where people can mourn WWII and its 55 million casualties.

With regard to the present hijacking issue, I don't think it was WWII that prompted the terrorists to attack American targets, rather various Mid-East policies the US has pursued.

 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Thu May 23, 2002 6:18 pm

Joni
I suggest you single out the flame bait posters/posts. Singling out the responders is misguided on your part. Though if my view coincided with yours, I'm sure you wouldn't have posted.

You're only as good as your last departure.
 
eugdog
Posts: 426
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2001 11:32 pm

RE: Guns IN The Flight Deck

Thu May 23, 2002 7:30 pm

As a Brit I can assure the American contributors to this site at the Anti-american sentiments is from a very small minority.

Because Switzerland is neutral is needs to keep a huge army - every Swiss citizen has to serve in the army for a year and must remain in the reserves for most of their lives. That is the price of neutrality.

Regarding the terrorist attacks - America is hated by Islamic fanatics who see the liberal and democratic ways of America as a threat to Islam. They cannot accept that the world's only super power is prosperous wealthy AND non-Islamic! America is a victim of its own success!

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