Topic Author
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Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 8:03 am

I don't normally indulge in speculation such as this, but would like
to hear your opinions on whether this crash will be the end of CI.

To the best of my knowledge no carrier, past or present, has had
such a terrible safety record. With 5 widebodied aircraft written off
and numerous close-calls (343 at Anchorage, etc) since 1990, surely
the time has come for action.

Do you think any country will have the courage to withdraw CI's landing
rights due to this tragedy? Surely, finally, enough is enough.

RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 8:15 am

I'm not sure will this be the end of CI.

Back in 1998, one of the most devastating crash at Taipei, there were protests against CI at their HQ. They were "egg bashing" CI's HQ building, and demands CI to shut down.

And did it really happens (shut down CI)? NO.

This has become a cycle for CI.

This cycle is:

CI crashed a plane -> people protest shut down CI -> CI offer suicidal price -> people fly CI again because the suicidal price -> CI earns profit -> (4 years after) -> CI crashed again -> people protest......and on and on.

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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 8:23 am

As it is partly if not completely owned by the government, I don't think it will close down anytime soon.

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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 9:02 am

Its easy to understand people's feelings about CI...even before the 1999 accident in HKG and this one, they had a terrible reputation. Now, as Jimmy is saying, probably the only way they can get customers back again is by offering ridiculously cheap prices, much like Korean used to do. But speaking with a few Taiwanese, they personally would not even take CI before this new accident.

I really hope that Taiwan has a full inquiry into the operations of the airline, this simply cannot continue going on as it has.
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 11:25 am

After the 94 Airbus crash in Nagoya, the Taiwanese govt did indeed impose some sanctions on CAL by disallowing them to fly on certain routes, as a punishment. However, several crashes / incidents followed after that 94 crash so i wonder what is the govt going to do now?
Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 12:49 pm

You know I laugh when the CI staff say `SORRY' to the familes. SORRY, how many times have they said SORRY ??. So they can crash and crash and crash but make sure they say sorry !!
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 1:30 pm

From what was reported, the crash sounds eerily like TW800 in 1996. Same aircraft type, same 20 minutes after departure, and if mid-air explosion is true, same kind of catastrophe. What does this mean, China Airlines meeting the same fate into oblivion as TWA?

I had been skeptical about the center fuel tank theory with the TWA crash, but now my interest is definitely piqued about what really happened with CI611 today.

It may not be China's fault, but I still would not fly with them. I'm sure most people on this board will agree.
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 1:39 pm

yup, my dad absolutely refuses to fly CI. He always flies EVA, CX, or SQ to Taiwan. I wouldn't step on one of their planes. I'd rather take KE, they've improved their safety greatly.
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 2:51 pm

I'm really dissapointed at the Taiwan Authorities. How many lifes have the clamied from the crashes? To be honest...1 crash, acceptable if they don't make another one. 2nd crash....needs improvement. 3rd...can't tolerate. Especially when it's a national carrier, representing the country, it's a shame i can say. Also I'm sure that after CI crashed on their "Golden Route", it would a be a long term disaster for them.

Best Regards
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 4:00 pm

Well Hkgspotter1, they HAVE to apologise to the families, it's the humane thing to do. But what's really pathetic is how they 'sorry' & don't accept the possibility that they could be responsible for the crash.

I just think they're a poorly-run airline. I've never flown CI (and never will) but heard that their service is good. Their safety record is a completely different story though, and reflects the standard of the airline.

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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 4:28 pm

Hkgspotter1 has a point though:
crash-->sorry+ public confidence goes down-->cheaper prices+ public confidence goes back up-->crash-->sorry....etc...

People. They make an airline.
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 9:19 pm

How many more crashes do China Airlines have for people not to want to fly them??????

They have given the airline industry a very bad name. They have blemished the record of fanastic aircraft types such as the 747, A300 and MD11 (thru Mandarin) and are a disgrace to the industry. Let me ask you this ....would you get in a car with a drunk driver? That's about as much faith I have in CI, they are irresponsible. They should be shut down.

Sorry if this sounds harsh ..... my first and foremost feeling is of sympathy to victims of all their incidents.
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Sun May 26, 2002 10:56 pm

On UK television this morning, they had an expert from Jane's who claimed that CI's maintenance was much improved and was unlikely to be the reason for the crash, okay speculation - but the important comment he made was that a lot of energy seems to have been spent on improving the maintenance procedure at CI over the last couple of years.

Everyone here blaming CI have a point about their poor record, but are we sure this is to blame, it could be TW800 again. Mind you its at this point someone says the 742's should be grounded until we know what happened, ridiculous yep, but the same was said after the AA A300 crash recently.

Lets find out what really happened before blaming everyone.

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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Mon May 27, 2002 1:23 am

I just heard the news on television and the reporter said that it right now
points to an exploding gas tank, the same thing that brought TWA's 747
down some years back. Hasn't Boeing done something about that?
As I remember the problem was that it could become to hot just under
the main fuel tank.
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Mon May 27, 2002 2:25 am

No matter what the cause of the accident the authorities have to do something very stern about CI, they cannot continue going like this at all. Too many people have died in their aircraft, too much sadness and suffering among the myriads who have lost loved ones in their calamities. Above all that is totally unflattering for the Taiwanese government to see its flag carrier named in so many accidents.

I will not speculate on the cause of the crash but, if it were actually centre tank explosion, were there not recommendations made to 747 Classic operators about how to prevent those problems? And if so, did CI follow them?

Hop to it, fly for life!
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Mon May 27, 2002 2:54 am

When I read the news in The newspaper today I was completely stuned .CI need to do something, I'm surprised people fly them . The Taiwanese government should thoroughly investigate what the cause of this accident was and if it was something that was avoidable they should sanction CI.
RIP to all of those onboard.
Fly the Flag!!!!
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Mon May 27, 2002 4:53 am

I don't think this tragic crash will spell the end for China Airlines.
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Tue May 28, 2002 5:50 am

The editorial of one of the major Taiwanese papers the day after the crash probably sums up the feelings of the Taiwanese people quite well:

"Air Disaster Again! China Airlines Again!!"

If Hong Kong / Taiwan air talks allow Dragonair to move in, and also EVA to expand, China Airlines runs a huge risk of facing a massive drop in market share in the short run, and perhaps the long run.
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Tue May 28, 2002 9:47 am

I just say this,

I don't think any of us will ever fly CI....right ?. Now just make sure every person you know never takes CI, then ask them to tell everyone they know. The ask them............

You get what I'm saying.
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Tue May 28, 2002 9:50 am

Do they actually make money?


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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Tue May 28, 2002 10:47 am

I don’t realistically think that the latest crash in the string of nightmare prangs is going to result in China Airlines being shut down by authorities. The major damage is going to be done in the public’s confidence which is quite possibly going to force the carrier into economic ruin. After so many crashes, public confidence will never change. They will always be one of the world’s most dangerous airlines in the eyes of the Taiwanese and also the international travelling public. No matter what China Airlines does, they will have difficulty wooing back the Taiwanese so its more a case of trying to capture the international market. What they are going to need to do is introduce a complete rebranding, changing their name and livery completely. By doing this and initiating an aggressive marketing campaign and high levels of onboard services already seen aboard, I cannot see why they wouldn’t be able to convince the ignorant passenger back, providing that they drastically improve safety. My ideas to do so would firstly to “Internationalize” by employing pilots from around the globe in a bid to make it an International organization, alike what Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific have done because the Asian Airlines have always been regarded as extremely unsafe. More recently, Korean Air started employing expats and their safety record has improved markedly. With the surplus of extremely well qualified pilots from Sabena, Swissair and Ansett left unemployed, now could be the perfect time to snap up some truly exceptional and well trained pilots. As for the rest of the flying contingent, they will yet again need to be sent to Boeing or Airbus for complete and expensive retraining with those who fail loosing their jobs indefinitely – they’re going to need to be extraordinarily ruthless and hard-nosed to protect themselves because with the way things are now, their future is looking very bleak indeed.
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Tue May 28, 2002 1:00 pm

Why does the Taiwanese government even call its national airline - China Airlines?

Its strage how this seperatist government in Taipei wishes to distance itself from mainland China, yet it uses the name China in its dismal aviation industry. Why not call it Taiwan Airlines, if they are really interested in self-determination as they say they are. It looks like damage control to me.
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Tue May 28, 2002 1:41 pm

The reason for the Taiwanese to use China Airlines as a title is because when the airline was founded in December 1959 by a group of retired Chinese Air Force officers, the nationalist government of Taiwan was the officially recognised member(ie, as China) of the United Nations. It was only after 25th October 1971 that the People's Republic of China became the officially recognised member. Taiwan was automatically expelled from ICAO at the same time.
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Tue May 28, 2002 2:08 pm

JU101 - Remember Taiwan considers itself as the Republic of China (ROC), as opposed to the Peoples Republic of China (PRC) i.e. the Mainland Communist China that most people simply refer to as 'China'.

It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.

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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Tue May 28, 2002 4:39 pm

I once was told that the cost of CI's insurance was near the same amount in total to that of BA's, a larger airline i think( I might have gotten something mixed up)? but anyway, surely they will not be able to afford their insurance premiums due to 9/11 plus their record as well as this latest tragedy?

Anyone agree?
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Tue May 28, 2002 5:33 pm

FACT: CI has a terrible safety record and barely did anything to improve it, as various crashes prove(some clearly attributed to improper operation/pilot failure).

FACT: To cite a previous post: "crash-->sorry+ public confidence goes down-->cheaper prices+ public confidence goes back up-->crash-->sorry....Etc..."

FACT: Some US airlines were killed by the bad publicity following a big crash (PanAm, TWA), or at least the bad publicity was a major factor contributing to the demise. OK, In Asia the publicity might be not so easy to manipulate and the meaning not so completely blown out of any proportion as it is in the USA, but it surely would do the airline no good

CONCLUSION: It is a downward spiral, and it can't go forever

WHAT TO DO? Break the spiral. Downsize the airline and finance a good crew training and maintenance program with the cash gathered from the downsizing, then wait until it pays off. If they don't do so, they're tempting their own fate

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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Wed May 29, 2002 10:26 pm

Ever heard the song "Sorry seems to be the hardest word"

In the days of litigations and lawsuits, CI was very generous with the word...
Courage, or hopelessness ?

When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
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RE: Is China Airlines Finished?

Wed May 29, 2002 10:42 pm

Longreach, I read the same thing about CI some point they paid the same premium as BA which has 3-4 times the amount of aircraft. As far as TWA800 theory, that is a pretty unsatisfying explanation for TWA800 or the CI crash. The investigators simply ran out of ideas and settled for that one. For the sake of argument, if it was a center tank explosion in flt 800, it probably was not the case here: at FL 350 the fuel would be a lot cooler and not very volatile. TWA 800 was at 13,000 feet or so when it exploded.

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