User avatar
spinkid
Posts: 1350
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:59 am

Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Wed May 29, 2002 1:07 pm

I'm wondering why there are so few non stops on this route. I think the only one is from EWR via CO. I'm guessing that it is because it is mainly a leisure route, any thoughts?
 
trickijedi
Posts: 3201
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 4:35 pm

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Wed May 29, 2002 1:28 pm

You're right for the most part. Since it is primarily a leisure route, airlines have to feed their passengers from different locations since departure frequencies to HNL are relatively infrequent. Distance is also another reason... it's a pretty far destination for it to be in the domestic network.
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
User avatar
spinkid
Posts: 1350
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:59 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Wed May 29, 2002 1:39 pm

One thing I noticed is that their are several JFK-Tokyo non stops. The fares are actually cheaper than to Honolulu, at least comparable. The fares from Honolulu to Tokyo are actually more expensive for the most part.
 
Ex_SQer
Posts: 1351
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:43 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Wed May 29, 2002 1:50 pm

Two thoughts:
(1) CO is the only major with a huge hub in the NY area, hence it has enough feed to operate a non-stop flight to HNL. The other majors would rather serve HNL from their own hubs (UA from LAX/SFO/DEN, etc), and they take HNL-bound NYC residents there through their own hubs.

(2) HNL is a leisure route that isn't terribly profitable, if at all, for any major US airline. It acts as a frequent flyer miles "dump" for people to redeem their miles on. Most of the non-hub carriers operating out of the NYC airports would much rather use their precious slots to operate higher-yielding services.
 
Guest

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Wed May 29, 2002 2:37 pm

On your first thought, AA and DL are strong enough at JFK now to launch the flight. Most of CO's flight to HNL I would assume are NYC pax anyway. Anyone know?

I doubt people are flying north to transit via EWR to get to HNL and how many are on the flight from New England or Europe. Not a lot I'd assume.

ATA flew the route in conjunction with Pleasant Hawaiian a few years ago. No more for some reason.

TNNH
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Wed May 29, 2002 7:18 pm

What is the flight time from NYC to HNL (and v.v.)?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13176
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 12:49 am

Interestingly CO flew JFK-HNL back in '87-'88 from the old Eastern Terminal, the flight continued on to Sydney.

Around the same time UA was flying EWR-HNL with a daily 747-200, UA flew EWR-HNL from the ealry Eighties through '88.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
HAL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:38 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 12:51 am

Right now CO has its flights scheduled for 10:50 westbound, and 9:30 eastbound.

I know Hawaiian is seriously looking at starting daily HNL-JFK with our 767-300's early next year.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
N202PA
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2000 9:44 pm

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 1:04 am

HAL,

Very, very interesting! I was wondering when Hawaiian was going to start eyeing the east coast. I can't wait to fly with you guys!

On a related issue, would that flight require a technical stop somewhere along the way, or does the 763 have the range to do it nonstop?
 
ripcordd
Posts: 1032
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 1:52 am

I would have to disagree with the route being profitable. There are more flights to Hawaii than ever before, Airlines wouldnt keep opeing routes if they were unprofitable, and airfare to Hawaii isnt cheap at all
 
HAL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:38 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 4:09 am

N202PA,
The 763ER can make the JFK-HNL trip no problem, even against winter headwinds.

The word around our airline is that last fall we were planing a June '02 start to JFK, and in fact even had our logo and stuff ready at JFK, but 9/11 put a hold on it. Now it looks like early next year for our startup. And yes, we will be expanding east to other cities also. Our ownership has some nice expansion plans coming up. Rumors (and at this point that's all they are) include Salt Lake City, Atlanta, Denver and Chicago - all nonstops from HNL. It's an interesting time to be here!

Knowing the business savvy of our ownership group, I'm sure they're expecting a profit on the routes. They wouldn't do it if they were going to lose $.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
Guest

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 5:34 am

Knowing the business savvy of our ownership group, I'm sure they're expecting a profit on the routes. They wouldn't do it if they were going to lose $.

You'd think. But its not always that simple to figure to determine.
 
N202PA
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2000 9:44 pm

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 5:44 am

HAL,

Excellent! Thanks much for the information. As I said before, I am excited that you guys are coming out this way, and hopefully I will get a chance to try your service the very next time I come out to the Islands. All things relatively equal (such as price), I would much rather fly Hawaiian than any of the other American carriers.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 5:44 am

The reason there are not more flights from NYC to HNL/OGG is that flights from NYC would have no 'behind the gateway' traffic. For example, most of the US is 'behind' LAX and SFO so those are the best places for airlines to consolidate Hawaii traffic. Further, as it has been pointed out, most Hawaii traffic is leisure and therefore price sensitive. Leisure travelers won't pay the premium for non-stop service. CO pulls it off because of their hub but I don't think anyone else right now has the feed to make the flight work. It's cheaper for the airlines to make people connect through the hubs or LAX/SFO.
 
hawkeye2
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 5:24 pm

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 5:56 am

HAL, any word on international expansion? There was a post a while back about HAL possibly starting HNL-HKG -- that would be interesting.
 
redngold
Posts: 6673
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 6:12 am

New Yorkers prefer the Caribbean and Bahamas.  Smile

redngold
Up, up and away!
 
HAL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:38 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 8:03 am

Yes, east coasters do prefer the Caribbean and Bahamas - that's why there's dozens of daily flights that way. I think JFK to HNL can support two flights a day, especially when we start working with travel agencies to promote the flights.

As far as intl expansion, I'm still waiting to hear from our management which way they'll jump. I know they want to go to Japan, and are still talking with Cathay about a code share agreement that will have us fly HNL - HKG. But so far there's nothing concrete. I think our owners are waiting to see how the Asian economy does in the next few months before committing to an expansion in that direction.

I've also heard rumors about Australia and NZ but again, like before, it's just crew room rumors.

Looking forward to bringing you to paradise N202PA!

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
pecoua
Posts: 284
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 8:40 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 8:11 am

Excellent topic.

STT757, the United flight from EWR to HNL was flight 35...it did make a stop in SFO though...flight 35's flight number was later changed to 93 when the equipment changed to a 757. I love the fact you remember that flight. It was the first one I worked out of EWR with UA. Wish they would bring back that flight number. It was the very first 747 service in or out of EWR and I remember the big party UA had at the departure gate when the flight began (I think it was back in 1974 or 5, can't remember).

 Big thumbs up
 
Ex_SQer
Posts: 1351
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:43 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 8:26 am

Ripcordd:

"There are more flights to Hawaii than ever before, Airlines wouldnt keep opeing routes if they were unprofitable..."

On any given large airline, even the most profitable ones, you can expect at least a third of their routes to be unprofitable. Airlines maintain unprofitable routes for several reasons, including:
(1) Expectation that the route will become (more) profitable in the future
(2) It feeds into/out of other routes and/or hubs, thus improving the bottomline of those other routes
(3) It serves as a "mileage dump" for frequent fliers. Airlines with FFPs have to fly to some resort destinations to keep their FFs happy.
(4) Politics (5) Prestige (6) Stategic/competitive reasons .... etc etc.

Many US majors' flights to Hawaii are marginally profitable or even money losers, but they keep adding flights there, primarily for (3) above, but also for (2) and possibly (1) as well.
 
nonrevman
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 8:41 am

(3) It serves as a "mileage dump" for frequent fliers. Airlines with FFPs have to fly to some resort destinations to keep their FFs happy

Absolutely true.

DL has stated that Hawaii is marginally profitable. No doubt, this is the same for the others. However, if an airline wanted to pull out of Hawaii completely to become more profitable, there would be a backlash from business travellers. After all, the guys paying those big business fares from New York to Chicago want to use their miles for that Hawaiian vacation. If an airline cannot offer them this reward redemption, then they will find another airline that can. The fares to Hawaii may seem high, but it does not mean much if few people are paying it. I worked in reservations for 1 year and sold maybe 3 tickets to Hawaii. However, I booked a lot of people to the islands using their miles.
 
User avatar
OA412
Crew
Posts: 3735
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 9:53 am

Wasn't there a rumor going around some time ago that DL was planning on launching a JFK-HNL flight as well as reinstating ATL-HNL service? Anyone know any more on this?
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
762er
Posts: 522
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2001 8:18 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Thu May 30, 2002 10:14 am

The only airplane Delta wants to take to Hawaii is the 764, and until they work something out with the crew rest on this airplane, we won't be seeing the ATL-HNL nonstop reinstated. I'm hoping they will resolve the issue soon cause I know Delta isn't very happy with SLC-HNL which replaced it after they got the 764. Delta management really wants to bring it back to Atlanta because that's by far their biggest FF base and a lot of the FFer's are unhappy about having to stop through SLC, LAX, or SFO. They only chose SLC for the flight cause it was their only major hub less than 8 hrs. away and thus required only a two man cockpit. When and if they do resolve the issue, however, there have also been rumours about a CVG-HNL. Again, only a rumour.
 
acidradio
Crew
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Fri May 31, 2002 12:33 am

While routes in terms of passenger ticket sales may be unprofitable, remember that Hawaii depends on a lot of air freight as well from the mainland US. This could help out greatly in terms of revenue for the airlines as well.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
bobcat
Posts: 1141
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:28 pm

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Fri May 31, 2002 12:56 am

How hard can it be for Delta to add crewrest to the 764
on Hawaii flights? Just curious...
 
mlsrar
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 7:41 am

HNL Feeder Status.

Fri May 31, 2002 1:28 am

Two points to consider:

HNL is no longer a stop as it was 25 years ago for refueling towards asia. It was an ideal stop for further flights from the west coast, and airlines such as Pan Am, UA, and even HP (when they operated PHX-HNL-NGO); additionally, low-margin holiday pax could be dropped off.

HNL is not the outer-island feeder stop it once was. United, as of June 5, is losing their mainland-LIH direct service monopoly. Look at the direct service provided from the mainland to the outer islands:

OGG:
-DL -- LAX
-AA -- STL, LAX, SJC, DFW
-UA -- LAX, SFO
-TZ -- SFO, PHX, LAX
-HA -- SEA, LAX, SFO
-AQ -- SNA, OAK

KOA
-UA -- SFO, LAX
-AA -- LAX

LIH
-UA -- SFO, LAX
-AA -- LAX

I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
drerx7
Posts: 4204
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:19 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Fri May 31, 2002 3:00 am

Any chance of HA starting service to IAH? Continental has two daily flights that are currently 767-400s with one being upgraded to a 777 in the fall.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
HAL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:38 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Fri May 31, 2002 6:21 am

I'm sure IAH is on someone's list as a possibility, but we rarely hear anything until just before the public announcement is made.

I would think, however, that larger cities like NY, Chicago and others would be higher on our list, since we'd need a very large population base to pull from to be able to compete with the majors.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
SaturnV
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 1:13 pm

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Fri May 31, 2002 10:31 am

Delta can't be too unhappy with the SLC HNL route as there hasn't been an empty seat on the flight in about 5 months.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Fri May 31, 2002 11:33 am

Hawaii is a major leisure market, and it's true, many frequent fliers try to redeem miles for flights there. From the East Coast, the flight time is around 10h30mins, making it quite a long journey for a community that has dozens of Caribbean islands within three to four hours flying time from many East Coast cities.

As far as the NY-Hawaii market is concerned, UA has too small a presence at JFK or EWR to generate sufficient traffic to make a HNL flight profitable. UA is basically an O&D airline in the NY market. American has more flights, but can achieve better aircraft utilization by operating ORD/DFW to HNL and secondary Hawaii airports than one long nonstop from NY where again, AA does not have a connecting/feed network comparable to Continental at EWR. Same can be said for Delta, but they did have an ATL-HNL nonstop for a while, with the L1011. Now, it is a 767-400 and I believe it stops in LAX due to crew rest issues.

Continental does have quite a lot of connecting traffic from New England and even the mid-Atlantic region on the EWR-HNL route. The flight is timed to allow connections to/from Boston, Washington DC, Baltimore, Raleigh/Durham, Charlotte, Atlanta, and other markets up and down the Eastern Seaboard.

There is also growing tourist interest in Hawaii from European countries, notably the UK, so CO can possibly send a few folks from LGW to HNL on the same day, via EWR or IAH.

ContinentalEWR
 
kwbl
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:55 am

HAL

Fri May 31, 2002 1:57 pm

Are you guys looking at more from PDX? based on the April numbers, is looks like the single daily DC10 is averaging about 275 passengers and it looks like it has been that wy for a couple years straight. Is 275 pretty close to a full plane? Also, this route shows a DC10 through the summer. is the 767 coming soon? Thanks
 
762er
Posts: 522
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2001 8:18 am

RE: Whare Are There So Few NY-HNL Non Stops

Fri May 31, 2002 2:23 pm

The only reason Delta would rather have the flight based out of ATL is that they want to satisfy their ATL ffers simply because they contribute more revenue than any other customer hub. It's not about loads, although they were making more money (or should I say losing less) out of ATL.
 
HAL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:38 am

RE: HAL

Fri May 31, 2002 3:01 pm

I'd like to see more flights for us from PDX. It's consistently full out of there, and I think it could support something like a 757 to Maui (the 57's are rumored to be coming soon). The 767 is coming to PDX, but I don't know when. The PDX trips are flown with HNL crews, and HNL is the last bastion of the DC-10. My guess is late this year or maybe early '03. If we do get the 757 you might look for additional service then. Another possibility (since both Seattle trips are morning departures, and are always full) is an afternoon SEA-PDX-HNL trip. There's lots of possibilities for us in the NW - I hope our management takes advantage of them.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 817Dreamliiner, airfinglas, alski, Andy33, FlyKev, IFixPlanes, Mani87, qfatwa, qvb222, SCQ83, teme82, transit, XLA2008, Yahoo [Bot] and 178 guests