Guest

Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Wed May 29, 2002 5:13 pm

Aer Lingus pilots are on strike today following the suspension of seven pilots who refused to comply with new cost-cutting working practices. The management of the company have decided to suspend all operations indefinately from Friday unless they can get 100% agreement from the unions with their Survival Plan - if they can't, they will shut the doors permanently.

Like Sabena, this may be yet another airline destroyed by unions living in cloud cuckoo-land!!  Pissed  Pissed  Pissed

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=762480&issue_id=7489
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Wed May 29, 2002 7:31 pm

, this may be yet another airline destroyed by unions living in cloud cuckoo-land!!

Nothing against Aer Lingus specifically but hey, but for every airline that goes, the chances of the rest surviving are improved. That's life. I doubt whether there'll be many tears at the likes of BMI or CityXpress if EI shuts down.
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
go canada!
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Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Wed May 29, 2002 7:39 pm

fair point, other airlines wont be too sad but let's look at the subject in greater detail and out it into context.

Cityexpress( i think you mean BA's little baby) will be affected, BA has a small stake in aer lingus and it is a part of one world, to lose a one world carrier will have a knock on effect.

bmi do not fly to every irish airport.

aer Lingus is Ireland's national carrier, for it to collaspe would leave ryanair in a dominant postion, that is unhealthy for competition.

aer lingus is a quality airline, it is different from Sabena, it doesnt have a bad reputation and was fairly healthy before sept 11.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
AMSMAN
Posts: 975
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:24 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Wed May 29, 2002 7:40 pm

Im booked on the AMS - DUB 19.25 flight!! I hope they dont!!

J
Aer Lingus, Proud to be Irish.
 
AMSMAN
Posts: 975
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:24 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Wed May 29, 2002 7:57 pm

Just been speaking to Aer Lingus Amsterdam!! They have confirmed that there is no flights departing from Europe into DUB on Thursday and Friday with Saturday until Wednesday looking very unclear!!

She also said that if the Airline was to hold a 7 day strike the company would just dissolve!!!

There goes my ticket!!!

J
Aer Lingus, Proud to be Irish.
 
greenjet
Posts: 869
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 9:59 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Wed May 29, 2002 8:56 pm

IF Aer Lingus were to fold up then there would temporarily be no flights to Amsterdam, Boston, Brussels Intl, Chicago, Dusseldorf, London City, LA, Munich and New York JFK from Dublin. On the other routes there would be monopolies. That may be good news for the likes of bmi, Ryanair, etc. but it's not good news for the general public.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Wed May 29, 2002 8:59 pm

I dont think FR would raise prices too much.Volumes are key to them.This whole thing seems very Sabena-esque though,and we all know where that ended up.How much debt do EI have?
 
WunalaDreaming
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2001 4:44 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 12:26 am

What will happen to me???

I am due to fly LGW-DUB on 11 July.

The tickets are booked through British Airways and were advertised under the BA flight code. I also paid airline failure insurance.

Will Aer Lingus be in the air by July? Loosing £1,500,000 per day would say not!!!
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 12:31 am

1.5 million a day!!!Thats not too far off what UA are losing and they are considerably larger!
 
Guest

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 5:22 am

Replacement carriers tomorrow are Hapag Lloyd, Corsair and European Aviation.
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 5:32 am

In order to be able to make a keen judgment about this strike, does anybody have the details of the cost-cutting plan ?
Rgds.
Spitfire
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
bx737
Posts: 551
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:47 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 6:13 am

The survival plan was negotiated and voted on by all unions in EI. It allowed for 2026 redundancies, a cut in annual leave, changes in on board service, cuts in cabin crew levels on flights, pay freezes, non-payments of increments, freeze on recruitment amongst others. All unions voted on it and accepted it with the exception of the pilots union. They accepted the pay freezes and the redundancies, but rejected the productivity clause. The major stumbling block for them was the company wanting to cut their rest period to 10 hours.

This was then imposed by the company. When pilots refused to work the new arrangements, they were suspended without pay. This led to the pilots union issuing strike notice for a one day strike on May 30.

In response to this the airline has cancelled its flights on Fri and Sat, Sun is looking a bit dodgy, citing logistical problems with recommencing operations. The airline has also said that it will not pay pilots from midnight tonight until further notice.

Wrt losing €1.5million per day, this is for the days when the airline is not flying. It is rumoured to be profitable at the moment.

I hope this is of some help
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 6:24 am

Thanks Bx737,

You said :"The major stumbling block for them was the company wanting to cut their rest period to 10 hours. ", for what kind of duty time? This can have an imortant impact on security of the flights....
Rgds.
Spitfire

Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
BA DC-10
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2001 8:40 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 6:26 am

Aer Lingus is a highly reputable airline. Its service levels are high and to loose the airline would affect the Irish economy greatly, due to the vast number of transatlantic flights that would be lost. Ryanair is simply not a replacement for Aer Lingus. It will be a sad day if this almost historic airline is lost  Sad
 
Guest

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 6:44 am

Good for EI standing up to these idiots who think they are gods!

What's the difference between god and a pilot?


God knows that he is not a pilot.
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3542
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 6:50 am

Bastardo's, I need to get to DUB from LHR on Sat. for a stag do. I'm on stby on Bmi, and there were seats avail, but guess I'll be screwed now, if EI transfer their pax over like they did last time.  Sad
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
CX747
Posts: 5623
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 7:01 am

What is the actual probability that they will shut down the airline? I would think that one of the two sides would blink first. Nobody likes to make themselves unemployed.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Guest

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 7:09 am

CX747 - Don't forget that people said the same thing about Sabena ... and look what happened there.
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 11:23 am

for those of you who are sweating the possablity that your flight will be cancelled soon if AER LINGUS shuts down,most any airline will take your tickets.that is what always happens in this case.when northwest and air canada had their problems in i think 1998 UNITED and the other airlines flying to europe took the tkts.

and unions dont ruin companies,management ruins companies.i am not pro-union employee,if airlines took care of their employees(southwest)you would never hear about the problems of management not wanting to give raises,or bennifits or.... well you get the point.imo




ual 777 contrail
 
B-HXB
Posts: 678
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 12:04 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 1:10 pm

It's about time an airline stood up to a union without caving in immediately. I hope the pilots feel a bit stupid when they are left with no job and will probably be cited as the main cause of the collapse by the general public.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 1:14 pm

Aer Lingus' cost base ,not its relations with the unions,is probabrly its death knell.
 
WunalaDreaming
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2001 4:44 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 4:57 pm

http://www.aerlingus.com

'This site is currently unavailable while essential maintenance is being carried out.
We hope this does not cause undue inconvenience.

Please try again later.'

 
Guest

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 5:15 pm

Donder10 - the cost base is directly attributable to the unions; especially in terms of working practices. If the unions demand that two or more people do a job one person could do, that drives your costs up!  Insane
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 5:46 pm

Especially if those same unions also demand wages that are double what someone in a non-airline related company would get for the same job...
I wish I were flying
 
Guest

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Thu May 30, 2002 6:08 pm

The latest news on the dispute is here: http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=763372&issue_id=7497

According to EI's CEO, Willie Walsh, it's costing them €2m per day to suspend operations.

Interesting quote:

The Taoiseach [Irish Prime Minister] acknowledged that the survival plan was "absolutely necessary". All workers in the airline had signed up to the agreement and all of them would have to take some pain in making changes.

"I appeal to management and staff to try and find a way out of this because the Aer Lingus balance sheet is still very weak. They haven't got surplus funds and are not in a position to take either internal or external shocks," said Mr Ahern.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Fri May 31, 2002 3:00 pm

Apparently EI lost 140 million euros last year and has forecast a 27m deficit this year!
 
ei 168
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2001 3:00 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Fri May 31, 2002 5:12 pm

Have they sold off their charter airline Futura? They might get some money for that! Maybe not a lot but surely some amount!
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Fri May 31, 2002 5:24 pm

Donder10 - the cost base is directly attributable to the unions; especially in terms of working practices. If the unions demand that two or more people do a job one person could do, that drives your costs up!
Very true.There arent any EI flights to LHR planned today
 
AF002
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:41 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Fri May 31, 2002 8:15 pm

Doesn't look good:
Message to customers (bottom right corner) on http://www.aerlingus.com/
 
wolfpacker
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 2:35 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Fri May 31, 2002 11:39 pm

Any more news about the meetings?
 
standby87
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 2:33 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Sat Jun 01, 2002 1:37 am

SAS23 – EI pilots are not 'demanding that 2 or more people do the same job'.
They were going on strike to protest at the suspension without pay of some of their colleagues would refused to work a new set of conditions that had not been agreed. This is called breach of contract! This included reduction in rest-hours. Management has responded by deliberately creating a lock-out situation.

I really dislike the anti-pilot sentiment on this thread. I want a properly rested pilot flying myself or family. I don’t know any EI pilots personally, but I know some from BA and BD and they are not 'stupid' or 'living in cloud-cuckoo land' as they have been described in this thread. One friend re-mortgaged his house, and hired his own B737 at 47 GBP a minute to take his commercial licence! That’s a degree of dedications and determination to be respected.

EI has an excellent safety and flight operations record. To blame the pilots for the current woes of Aer Lingus is far from the mark.

Or am I the only one out here who has a degree of respect for the folk up front who 'think they are God' (sic)?
 
flyingbronco05
Posts: 3484
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 11:43 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Sat Jun 01, 2002 12:37 pm

"DUBLIN, May 31 (Reuters) - Hopes for a resolution of the pilots' dispute that has grounded Irish national carrier Aer Lingus were raised Friday with the announcement of more talks, but there was little comfort for stranded passengers."

More at: http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/020531/airlines_aerlingus_2.html
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
Adam84
Posts: 1368
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Sat Jun 01, 2002 3:14 pm

Regarding everyone who currently has Aer Lingus tickets, call another carrier right away and try to get your ticket validated from EI. Once ticketing agreements are gone your ticket is about as useless as ever, and do not count on getting any money back.

Over at British Airways, when Swissair and Sabena went under, our ticket agreements were cut immediately (within hours of the bankruptcy announcements).

Also do not count on getting any of your money back if the carrier flops.
Bottom line, if Aer Lingus goes under you are screwed.
 
Guest

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Sat Jun 01, 2002 4:46 pm

Standby87 - In order to keep the company in business, management developed a Survival Plan. Every part of that plan neds to be implemented in order for the company to make it. All the other unions agreed - it was only IMPACT, the pilots union (now isn't that just a great name for a pilots union?  Insane ) that refused to play ball.

The company wants a minimum rest period of 10 hours. Minimum, not maximum. This is completely acceptable under the IAA regulations; it's acceptable under the UK's CAP371 (the document setting out flight time limitations) and it's acceptable in the US as well.

This is not a safety issue - it's the union trying to flex its muscles like they used to be able to do in the 1970s and 80s. Those days are long gone now, thank goodness!

Incidentally, this poses an interesting question. Pilots pose themselves as 'professionals' - yet professionals do not have unions. Pilots generally have very blue-collar working practices - should they therefore simply be regarded as 'labour providers'? If they want to be treated as professionals, they should work as such.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Sun Jun 02, 2002 5:38 am

It's only a change of 2 hours anyway-not a huge change.The same pilots striking now will be moaning like heck when EI go the way of Sabena.
 
englandair
Posts: 2193
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:34 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Sun Jun 02, 2002 5:58 am

Were there no EI flights at all today? Not even positioning?

It's just that between 5 and 7 pm today I saw 2 a/c I would have bet money were EIs.
I saw them with binoculars from my garden near LHR and they were flying quite heigh, in the direction of Ireland. 1st I saw an A330, then a B737 flying at around the same height. They appeared to be white on the bottom and green on the top of the fusselage and tail. They were definately these a/c types, but because my binoculars are quite cr@p, I'm not 100% sure if the green was EI green!

So did EI have ANY flights?!
 
englandair
Posts: 2193
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:34 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Mon Jun 03, 2002 8:14 am

Any guesses as to what I saw?!
 
geotrash
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:25 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Mon Jun 03, 2002 2:13 pm

I want a well rested pilot too. I know that they carry tremendous responsibility. Nevertheless, it is unquestionably wrong of these pilots to walk off the job altogether because they don't see eye to eye with management on this issue. It represents aggregious abuse of power on the part of the pilots. Thousands of people everyday, with needs just as important as the theirs, are depending on the airline to get them where they have paid to be taken. Maybe a heart transplant patient on the way to the US for surgery, or a father attending his daughter's wedding, or his wife's funeral. Real people are affected here.

While pilots have a tremendously important job, they are but one link in the chain. To recklessly disregard the needs of all who are depending on them because they are angry about the suspension of their coworkers is ludicrous. This is about responsibility. These pilots have a responsibility to do their jobs. Any professional who engages in abuse of power for their own gains cannot be called a professional. There are other ways of dealing with grievances that do not put the livelihoods of countless others at risk. If they need more rest time, then battle it out in court or in arbitration. If that fails, then find another job with another carrier. It's the way of the world.

We must remember that the passengers are the victims here, not management!

-Geo
 
WunalaDreaming
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2001 4:44 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Mon Jun 03, 2002 9:20 pm

I booked a flight LGW-DUB rtn with British Airways traving on 11JUL2002 and returning on 14JUL2002.

I booked these through and ABTA bonded travel agent and these tickets are issued by Britiswh Airways - just happens that the outbound flight is operated by Aer Lingus. I also paid airline failure insurance.

What will happen to my 6 tickets? I think they will be covered by ABTA and BA - and they will just change my flight as I bopoked the ticket through them not EI. ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
 
luftaom
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 4:29 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Mon Jun 03, 2002 9:44 pm

If you are booked on the BA flight number then your money went to BA, this means that it is BA's problem if EI goes belly up. A recent example would be the NH codeshare on KIX-BNE-SYD-KIX service by AN, people booked on the NH flight number were all accomodated on other services (as NH's expense) or offered a full refund. Fear not!
Schrödinger's passenger - simultaneously connecting and flying direct.
 
standby87
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 2:33 am

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:28 am

I'm glad the dispute is coming to an end - there's another thread about that.

Just a few points:

SAS23 - I respect your opinions, I just disagree with them, probably because our viewpoints on unions and management are widely different. I'm hardly a revolutionary, I live in Switzerland for heaven's sake, but when you've been through a million and one different hair-brained 1990s reorganisations, seen money wasted on management consultants with zero knowledge of the airline business, outsourcing, sell-offs, job cuts, even the bankruptcy of my company (the one that had a cross on its tail), those experiences change and shape your beliefs! I'm very cynical towards what I would call new-breed airline managers that are more interested in their own bonuses then in customer service – and in some cases have never even tried their own Economy class product, but I digress...

Back to EI: I thought IMPACT did accept the survival plan (pay freeze etc.), just they didn't accept the reduction in minimum rest and instead of continuing to negotiate, management went ahead and imposed it, suspended staff without pay and seemed more interested in blaming the pilots for “guerrilla tactics” (Irish Times) than on resolving the dispute. What's criminal in my books is the management closing down the entire airline AFTER the strike had ended. All the contributors to this forum would agree you cannot operate a scheduled airline on a stop-start basis, yet this is exactly what happened due to (my opinion) a management hell-bent on trying to rule by the old “divide and conquer” principle.
As an aside, ATC, Doctors and Police Officers have unions, staff associations, call them what you like. Professional workers support each other. If 7 colleagues in your department were suspended without pay for refusing to work to new unagreed contracts, what would you do?

Time for bed - it's against the law here to stay up after 2230hrs, the neighbours will be calling the police...Cheers!
 
Guest

RE: Aer Lingus Grounds Itself From Friday

Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:54 am

Standby87 - actually, I suspect that our views at the end of the day are very similar. I don't like bullies - be they management or union. The way that I have done things in the past - and will do in the future - is ensure employee participation in companies through share holdings that they pay for. Management also has to put its employees first - before customers - because that gives you happy employees and with happy employees you get happy customers.

I also believe that management bonuses should be directly related to the results of their team members - and that those team members should also share in the bonuses.

A "them and us" attitude is a lose-lose situation for everyone.

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