myself
Posts: 206
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SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 1:17 am

Who thinks SN Brussels is going to be successful ?
Or are they just keeping up appearances but in reality dying slowly ?

 
airDD
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 3:06 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 1:53 am

Difficult to tell ...

They still have to pay back a "government" loan end of the year.

And I also heard that the load on African flights is averaging around 80 people per flight.

airDD
 
sterne82
Posts: 394
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 2:18 am

Wait and see, are the only things we can do!

Sterne
 
pressclub
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 2:57 am

x There is no recent news.

x Last figures are from the beginning of april: occup rate was at that moment around 50 procent. And at that moment the new CEO said that the airline was developping in line with the business plan forecasts and that the Africa figures were good from july on... That's the latest official news we got. I give it for what it is.






 
Sabena 690
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 3:57 am

I have no confirmation or so for it, I just write this down here, so do not attack me if it is wrong.

I heard from two different people that SNBA is actually doing very bad.
One told me that analysts expect a bankruptcy within 6 months!!

Both said that SNBA was playing with their figures, that they let everything look very good, but that in reality they are doing very bad.

This was what I heard, I don't know if it is true.

Let's wait and see...

Regards,
Frederic
 
gaut
Posts: 436
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 4:18 am

Sabena 690,

I heard exactly the same from an inside source. He also told me that they are playing with loadfactor figures (especially about the African network). The present and the future of SNBA doesn't look bright as opposed to what the management (and the press) says.
Anyway good luck SNBA

Gaut
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
A330DAT
Posts: 461
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SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 4:35 am

Guys, don't for get that every beginning is difficult.

It is a fact that a great deal of passengers on the Africa to Brussela flights were connecting onwards to (for example) North America, something SN Brussels can not offer (for the moment). Even with this (handicap??), Africa flights are practically oversold for July and August. By that time SNBA may have found a US partner or/and perhaps even start a flight of it's own (New York???)

I wouldn't say things are going THAT bad. Again, we're dealing with a network that's only a fraction of what Sabena was. Surely you can't expect perfect results overnight?

Why not support Belgian aviation and the many efforts that are being done, not only for SNBA but for every project (Thomas Cook, VG Airlines, Virgin Express, Sobelair, VLM, BEAP, United Pilots,....)?? It's too easy to think negative and to critisize. Believe me when I say that the people out there are positive minded while remaining very realistic.

 Smokin cool

 
Sabena 690
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 4:40 am

Hello A330DAT,

Let me make clear that I support Belgian aviation for the full 100%.

I just wanted to share the info here to look at the opinion you guys have about it.

I hope that SNBA will become a succes. One big bankruptcy is enough.

Regards,
Frederic
 
A330DAT
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 4:52 am

Yes Sabena 690, you've always been very positive and supportive of Belgian Aviation, I know. You're one of the good guys  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up

 
User avatar
apuneger
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 4:53 am

The problem with these things is that source A says 'they're doing very well', while source B claims they're almost bankrupt.

Now, I don't know which source I have to believe. Until now, I thought they were doing quite well, but you guys are making me doubt about their situation. Well, if they can hold it until september or so, maybe I can come to the rescue and clear things up?

By the way: Hi Myself. It's been a while since I heard something from you. It must have been a year since I we got in contact (and it ended up pretty well for me: remember FRA?). I sure hope things are OK now for you (I don't really know how the demise of SN affected your personal career, but just let me say that I hope it ended up well).

Ivan

Ivan
Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
Sabena 690
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 4:59 am

Thanks A330DAT  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up

@Apuneger:

Well, if they can hold it until september or so, maybe I can come to the rescue and clear things up?

Yeah, why not Big grin
I hope you can offer me a good job within the company within some years Big grin

Regards,
Frederic


 
sab12
Posts: 95
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 5:12 am

As said above, every start is difficult, but I can tell you what I see with my own eyes every day, loads are going up slowly, some routes are doing very well and on the routes that we have competition we carry usual the higher loads.
ex.An agent told me that Air Dolomiti has a lot of flights which are empty to Brussels, while are flights are operating at 55%, not fantastic but the competition is not running away with our pax.
On African flights the loads where indeed low the first weeks but are growing quickly with some flights having a load exceeding 80%
STAY Positive, an American partner will be announced soon
Don't believe everything you hear, a lot of people would like that this airline would fail, but believe me it won't
 
pressclub
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 5:17 am

Sabena 690 and co,


I know that some pilots tell that the situation is very bad. They send me the same info. But they have to confess that it is only a rumour and they can not give a proove. I hope these guys know what they say.

I can only say this: Also for us it is difficult to judge the situation. Some sources are spoiled (frustrated pilots), others maybe too optimistic. so, we all have to be carefull. Here are some elements for the discussion:

x Only 3 weeks ago the management anounced that the situation is ok. Only 2 weeks ago in a mail to all personell the management indicated that everything is running according to the business plan forecasts and that they can even think about an own medium haul operation next spring.

x During the inaugural Congo flight President Rob Kuypers told that the financial situation of the company was good and that not even a capital increase was needed in autumn (before they thought they had to increase the capital in that period). The cashsituation was positive (more than 100 million euro) and the cashdrain due to the start-up can be stopped by august.

x The ASK/RPK ratio's are increasing

x About Bankruptcy: It's strange to forecast something like that already now. SN Brussels started debt free because the loan is no longer a government loan but a loan given by their stakeholders (SN Air Holding). So if they have financial problems - and that's in contrast with what the management tells - they can easily go to the banks.

x Why should the management lie about this? More than 30 stakeholders are presented in SN Brussels. If they lie, it will appear immediately in the press because you can't hide bad news during the board sessions.

x What i do know is that the figures for Africa for may and june aren't good. Some people say that it is the traditional low season in Africa, other tell me that SN Brussels still has to do a lot of work and deserve its place in the market. Especially the 'noon' flights results are bad.

Pressclub






 
Staffan
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 5:17 am

Haven't heard of any strikes on SNBA yet so they can't be doing that bad...

 
Sabena 690
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 5:18 am

Do you know which asian and american partner it is going to be Sab12?

Rgds
Frederic
 
pressclub
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 5:19 am



I agree once more with your post, SAB 12. I have the same indications
 
Sabena 690
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 5:20 am

Thanks for the info Pressclub!!

Yes, I don't have proves for it.
I just wanted to hear reactions about it.

Rgds
Frederic
 
pressclub
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 5:22 am

Frederic

Once more: nobody knows at the moment because nothing has been decided yet. The possibilities are known: CO or AA, SQ ... As most of these companies are public quoted it will only be news when it is officially anounced!
 
A320-addict
Posts: 249
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 5:54 am

Mhhh....


It is indeed to judge the situation, I have no view on the financial status or so, but actually 2 weeks ago I visited the DAT (SnBrussels) crewroom.

I entered because I had to wait for my own flight, just to see if there were no friends of mine. What I saw and heard really surprised me. There was a real sad, and depressing mood hanging in the crew room...

I heard people saying things like: "They took away our salaries (Davignon Lippens).... We are all going to be without a job soon"

This really suprised me because I had the impression that SnBrussels is on track and was even performing better that forecasted.
It actually made me sad because it was the same mood and feeling as during the last days of Sabena.

Wish them all the best though....  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up

I think we can only wait and see for the moment!!! The situation is very difficult to judge....
 
airDD
Posts: 367
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 5:54 am

Pressclub,

Do you happen to know if the European Commission is still looking into the financing of SNBA ? I seem to remember that LH and KLM filed a complaint with the EC regarding the potential government financing of the airliners.

Thanks !

airDD
 
pressclub
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 6:01 am

As far as i know, the stakeholders asked the EU commission if everuything was ok (ruling procedure). There was no remark on the loan. I am not sure if LH and KLM have filed that complaint or if they just said they were considering to do so....

 
A330DAT
Posts: 461
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SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 7:22 am

Nice comments Pressclub:

I know that some pilots tell that the situation is very bad. They send me the same info. But they have to confess that it is only a rumour and they can not give a proove. I hope these guys know what they say. I can only say this: Also for us it is difficult to judge the situation. Some sources are spoiled (frustrated pilots), others maybe too optimistic. so, we all have to be carefull. Here are some elements for the discussion:

x Only 3 weeks ago the management anounced that the situation is ok. Only 2 weeks ago in a mail to all personell the management indicated that everything is running according to the business plan forecasts and that they can even think about an own medium haul operation next spring.

x During the inaugural Congo flight President Rob Kuypers told that the financial situation of the company was good and that not even a capital increase was needed in autumn (before they thought they had to increase the capital in that period). The cashsituation was positive (more than 100 million euro) and the cashdrain due to the start-up can be stopped by august.

x The ASK/RPK ratio's are increasing

x About Bankruptcy: It's strange to forecast something like that already now. SN Brussels started debt free because the loan is no longer a government loan but a loan given by their stakeholders (SN Air Holding). So if they have financial problems - and that's in contrast with what the management tells - they can easily go to the banks.

x Why should the management lie about this? More than 30 stakeholders are presented in SN Brussels. If they lie, it will appear immediately in the press because you can't hide bad news during the board sessions.

x What i do know is that the figures for Africa for may and june aren't good. Some people say that it is the traditional low season in Africa, other tell me that SN Brussels still has to do a lot of work and deserve its place in the market. Especially the 'noon' flights results are bad.

Pressclub


As you can see, it's all the way you look at it. One can turn something into a hopeless situation, OR it can be looked at in a positive way. As you said Pressclub: Some sources are spoiled (frustrated pilots), others maybe too optimistic. so, we all have to be carefull

 Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up
 
myself
Posts: 206
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 7:27 am

Why would certain pilots be frustrated then ?
 
A330DAT
Posts: 461
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 8:06 am



Once more: nobody knows at the moment because nothing has been decided yet. The possibilities are known: CO or AA, SQ ... As most
of these companies are public quoted it will only be news when it is officially anounced!


Don't forget: SN Brussels Airlines has also entered discussions with "Delta Air Lines"!

 Smokin cool
 
pothiabs
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri May 25, 2001 9:39 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 8:23 am

Yeah,

and British Airways is about to merger with Virgin Express !
 
Guest

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 9:03 am

As I said a long time ago, as long as SNBA keeps to its old (DAT) niche market as a European regional carrier flying politicians, diplomats and military types into Brussels it will do well. The moment that it tries to recreate the old colonial ego route networks in Africa it will come unstuck ... and that seems to be what is happening. Sabena sold lots of seats because it was selling €10 notes for €9 (or even €5!) - which tends to put a company out of business. The costs of doing business in Africa are extremely high - one has to keep the local politicians (and the airport staff and many others) happy; sales are not as straightforward as they appear (cardboarding etc) and on top of that there's the problem with pax travelling on forged documents - every time you let one of those through, it costs you thousands of dollars.

Another problem with Africa is that there are only three or four good months (summer and again around Christmas) - the rest of the year traffic (and yields) are poor. The A330 could well be too large - a B767-200ER would perhaps have been a better choice.

I'm surprised (though I guess I shouldn't be!  Insane ) at the complaining/gloomy pilots - at least they are working, which is more than can be said for some of their Sabena colleagues. Hopefully, the ugly spectre of BeCA won't rear its head again.
 
myself
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 10:04 pm

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 9:37 am

Pressclub ,

I might be wrong here, but :

if the ASK/RPK ratio is increasing this would mean that the load factor is going down again.

Maybe you accidentally twisted the terms, but this would still not give a proper indication as to where they are heading.

ASK/RPK decrease is also when capacity is reduced more than the fall in traffic figures. And seen the flattening out pax figures you talk about, DAT must have decreased its capacity then.

I would not consider this to be a very positive signal for a start-up airline.

I wouldn't know but there is something weird about it.








 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 5:21 pm


This does not sound good to me at all.....

What th h**** is wrong with this god forsaken country!
 
D-aqui
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:16 pm

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 6:19 pm

I was very surprised to read that SNBA was not doing as well as some people pretended it to do.

As I was still planning to take the promotional offer of twenty business tickets, which is running until 15 June, I am no longer sure whether I should actually buy them and end up with a heap of expensive worthless paper.

So what do you suggest me to do?

d-aqui

 
LX-Maria
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:44 pm

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 6:28 pm

L'histoire se répète.

Only after 1 year; they will be buying or leasing aircraft again.

Old Sabena-policy; no money but buy some aircraft.
I'm sure they are repeating the bad habits of Sabena.

Don't forget; a load factor of 49% on an Avro RJ85 is only 40 pax.
Why do you need an Airbus then ?
But main question, why buy bigger aircraft ?

I really thought SNBr would change old habits but this is going wrong.
They only have 250 pilots but personnel is increased to 1.700
Old Sabena habit.

Also; the inside letter of CEO Vanneste indicated that all Airbus or 737 will be flown with own people.
I'm sure that the 500 ex-sabena pilots will love to hear this.
Do you know what trainings costs ? Waste of money again.
I'm happy not to pay taxes in Belgium.

SNBr presents itself as a low cost company.
They only reduced the pilots salary; the rest didn't change.
What do they have now ?
A bunch of unmotivated people that are not happy about the situation.
But they try to keep them calm by promising they get some airbusses.
So if they go bankrupt; everybody will have at least a decent license.

ps: i've been doing a 'tour du monde' so lost track of old postings.
but this time; i agree with Pressclub.
 
pressclub
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RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 6:46 pm

Maybe, LX maria you can ask Mr atTACK something about range:

With an Avro Jet you can't fly to ATH, LIS, and other EU Destinations. You need Airbusses or boeings 737 for this kind of operation.
 
sab12
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 5:40 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 6:48 pm

D-aqui,

there is absolutely no problem, as management said the airline is ahead of the bx plan and lx maria we won't be bying airbusses.
The avro are doing fine except on some routes they are allways full.
Training has to be done anyway lx maria, and there is a rule that first you have to give your own people work before you can accept others, so if they replace avro by 737 they cannot fire snba pilots and take others.
Also do not forget that the lease of the aircrafts has gone down by 37%
 
pressclub
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 10:24 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 6:50 pm

D-AQUI,

There is not a single prooven indication for a bankruptcy scenario today. What some people think is based on rumours we can't check and these rumours are conflicting with what the managements tells the Board.

The debt/capital ratio is not worrying and a capital increase (not necessary according to the management) is always possible.

Do what you want.

Personally I don't think your tickets will be worthless soon.

 
D-aqui
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:16 pm

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 6:57 pm

@Pressclub

Thank you for that hint.

Although I was on holidays and have not flown SNBA for the last four weeks I had the impression of a fresh start, cabin and flight deck crews were always in a good mood, so this thread with all the negative indications has puzzled me a little bit.


d-aqui
 
sk945
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:28 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 7:33 pm

A question little beside the subject.
SNBR I know quite well, but how about Sabena. How large airline were they during there peakperiod? How many annual pax? Fleet etc. Do anyone have some information about this?
Regards
 
pressclub
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 10:24 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 7:39 pm

Hi SK,

Sabena served more than 100 destinations and had 12 million pax. Almost 60 pct of these pax were transfert pax.

Fleet: more than 30 medium haul aircraft, more than 30 shorthaul aircraft (Avro Jet), Long haul Airbus fleet of 14 aircraft and businessplan project for 19 LH aircraft.

Network: dense European network (capitals but also secondary destinations like Bristol, Birmingham, Stuttgart, Verona, Bilbao, Toulouse, ...). Long haul network: Focus on central africa, 5 or 6 American destinations (New York, Newark, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Washington) and 2 Asian (Madras, Tokyo).


 
sk945
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:28 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 7:42 pm

Hi Pressclub,
Thank you for the info.
 
pothiabs
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri May 25, 2001 9:39 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 8:09 pm

An Avro can easily make it between BRU and LIS (they even fly long haul to HEL).

Reason why the long flights are abandoned could be : too long flight times, too high fuel burn, too high operating costs.

Out of experience I can tell the inflight service is not very "business minded", nor are the flight attendants and the pilots. (English with a ridiculous Dutch accent and giving no flight info at all, just a brief "hello"). Some "flight crew commercial education" might come in useful. But in fact I feel sorry for those people : they don't realize what's happening above their heads and beyond their control.......

But most important of all : The company has no commercial identity. They change profile more often than a chameleon and have no clear image. At first they were going to cover almost the entire ex-Sabena network (impossible), concentrating on Business Pax. Then a few weeks later one of the bosses tells the press they will concentrate on O&D traffic, and then all of a sudden they want to create a hub around the Africa-flights.........This is no way to run an airline. If you're not big enough, then don't try everything at once but concentrate on 1 single target and stick to it.

I would also very much agree that adding 737 or 319s to the fleet would be most "stupid" thing to do. (sorry, can't find a more gentle word for it). They don't need narrow-bodies.

I also noticed that after the SN bankruptcy all employees had to undergo wage cuts up to 35% (correct figure ?), while the aircraft leasing contracts were left unchanged for months. Very efficient cost-(and motivation) cutting program : tackle the smaller costs first. I guess it was just some sort of "getting even", or just to have the pleasure of hitting those "annoying pilots" where it hurts. But they have given a perfect example of how it should not be done.

You might ask what I would propose to get DAT afloat again (haven't been giving much positive input so far, I reckon). Well I guess the best thing they could have done was to start completely from scratch, with a completely non-ex-SN-group management, and with adapted aircraft and a very well defined strategy, 100% private funding (now they're even more state-owned than Sabena has ever been, when you look further up the capital flow)

It might indeed sound very hard, but I have never found any reason to keep DAT alive, not even when they were under the warm cosy wings of mother Sabena. They were not the "low cost" operator everyone thinks them to be. Yeah, sure they didn't have marketing, reservation, ground handling and many overhead costs, but these were made at Sabena. The best thing SN could have done (which of course they didn't, a matter of respecting the Belgian logics) was to integrate the entire DAT into the SN-medium haul operations.

The management may say whatever it wants, but the persons in place are there, either with a secret mission to "gently guide the company to the grave" or either they are really naive or scared as hell. The intelligent ones are those who already left for other companies (TNT, DHL ?) and the most intelligent ones are those who never entered in the first place.

With the present market, the funding that was raised and the operational costs they now have, they must still be burning approximately 8-10 million Euros per month, which means that they might just celebrate the SN-collapse first birthday in a similar way.....

 
pressclub
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 10:24 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 8:27 pm

Dear Pothiabs,


SN Brussels never had the ambition to cover the whole Sabena network. From where you have this kind of info?

I was present at all pressconferences and i have al slides from the presentations. Europe plus Africa was the plan from day 1 on. The focus on O&D was the ambition from day 1 and only the Africa flights are there in a hub strategy.

On what info you base your cashdrain forecast? Do you have info about the advanced bookings?

I think one of the intelligent guys you describe without given the name is Christophe Mueller. Correct? He told me personally that DAT was one of the best examples of a small company.

I don't want to go in conflict with you, i just give you this info as additional info this discussion.

Pressclub



 
DragonRapide
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 6:59 pm

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 8:38 pm

Some points:
- Question: why would you want to expand your network and fly to Lisbon, Athens, Moscow if you are starting up and struggling for survival. Answer: you don't, not even if you are convinced the yields would be good because the extra routes ask for extra investment and you need your money for other things right now.
- The above applies for an African network too, so my opinion is they went the wrong way.
- Load factor gives an indication but certainly doesn't tell the whole story. Many promotions were held and surely SNBA didn't get a lot of profit from those tickets. Flying with acceptable load factors but at rock bottom prices is no good thing for your balance sheet. Even today these promotions are ongoing: depending on the destination you can for 250 or 300€ fly with two persons to the main SNBA destinations. You think that will make the profits sky rocket?
- A very general comment and not point to SNBA at all but statements like those of Pressclub: "Why should the management lie about this?" Really you are not that naive to think that managment never lies to its BoD when they are in trouble??????????
 
pothiabs
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri May 25, 2001 9:39 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 8:51 pm

Hi Pressclub,

Nice to see we have some files in common. (but don't take everything they throw at the media for granted)

But the true "plan" was drawn on NOvember 30th 2001 (a little late), and contained several remarkable items :

* Funding needed for the RJ-MH-LH ops : 600 million Euro. (How much did they collect in the end ? 155 ?). When they said way back in November that they would be in Kinshasa for Christmas, they already knew very well that they simply didn't have the money to do so. As a gift from heaven, the two aviation-crooks HAsson and Güttelman offered a wet-lease solution (BMI refused to work without a bank deposit, which DAT couldn't give), and there is a very poisonous tail to this story too....
* VEX to disappear at all cost. (of course, they are beyond control and a thorn in the eye of many Belgian established values)
* Take full advantage of the crisis (low demand for pilots) by lowering wages.
* Watch out for social unrest after 6 months. (and try to keep the troops under control by giving false hope or prospects)


I can absolutely not agree if you say that O&D was their strategy right from the start. If it were, than they wouldn't have operated 3 to even 4 daily flights to all destinations, while they should have known better (huge overcapacity).

They did state on several occasions that their intention was to become a leading airline, and even to become "bigger and better than Sabena ever was". I have the impression they need to get rid of some frustration somewhere.

The Alliance rumours are just spread out to provoke a big airline into showing interest in DAT, but in fact the rumours are the desperate cry of a dying animal. (and also serve to keep the troops calm, remember ?)

Burn-rate forecasts are easy to make if average yield, average load factor and operating costs are known, no need to know bookings in advance (although these are not very promising either, to use gentle terms)
 
pothiabs
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri May 25, 2001 9:39 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 9:00 pm

Dagon,

maybe the management doesn't even know they are lying ?

 Wink/being sarcastic
 
lumumba
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 7:16 pm

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 9:14 pm

I can tell you that the service on the African flight's are perfect inBussines class.And for sure they have to inprove on the european service?
And i think they need to fly to Ath,lis and Moscow but with a code share partner like they allraedy do with FINAIR.
Regards
Patrice
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 9:21 pm


WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP!

WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP!
 
pressclub
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 10:24 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 9:25 pm

sorry Pothiabs, send me please the articles in which they said they want to become better and bigger than Sabena ever was. This is breaking news what you tell us.

I can't find this info in a single article or press release. In the quotes I got the stakeholders always told that they wanted to be a niche player with moderate ambitions.

By the way, strange thay you know all this while you mention that you live in the States. Or are you lying about this? Or do you have simularities with SAS or Ceilidh?














 
pothiabs
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri May 25, 2001 9:39 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 9:28 pm

One doesn't have to reside in a country to know all about its airline and most of the people who work there, aviation is a small small world.
It's Geert, isn't it ?


 
A330DAT
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 2:21 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 10:32 pm

Pressclub - I think you hit it right on the nose!

* VEX to disappear at all cost. (of course, they are beyond control and a thorn in the eye of many Belgian established values) Pothiabs must be related to "Celulith" ... a little too far away from the real facts to really know wouldn't you say?
 Big grin

Oh yes, he's negotiating with BA and Virgin now.
 Wink/being sarcastic  Nuts
 
SN-A330
Posts: 1052
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:38 am

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 10:38 pm


By the way, strange thay you know all this while you mention that you live in the States. Or are you lying about this? Or do you have simularities with SAS or Ceilidh?

I think you're right on Pressclub !  Smokin cool

Regards, SN-A330

I would rather be flying...
 
Guest

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 11:13 pm

No, Pothias isn't me ... but I agree with pretty much everything he said.
 
Sabenaboy
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 5:31 pm

RE: SN Brussels : Keeping Up Appearances

Thu May 30, 2002 11:18 pm

Quoting Pothiabs:
"I also noticed that after the SN bankruptcy all employees had to undergo wage cuts up to 35% (correct figure ?), while the aircraft leasing contracts were left unchanged for months. Very efficient cost-(and motivation) cutting program : tackle the smaller costs first. I guess it was just some sort of "getting even", or just to have the pleasure of hitting those "annoying pilots" where it hurts. But they have given a perfect example of how it should not be done."

There's no way that "Celulith" would have said such a thing about SN-pilots.
He can't be the same guy!

BTW: I think he made some very good points.