flyingbronco05
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KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 12:30 pm

KLM says will not buy A380 superjumbo jet

By Chris Stetkiewicz

"SEATTLE, May 29 (Reuters) - KLM Royal Dutch Airlines NV (Amsterdam:KLM.AS - News; NYSE:KLM - News) said on Wednesday it would not order Airbus SAS' massive 555-seat A380 airliner, preferring jets half that size and possibly a faster new jet proposed by Boeing Co. (NYSE:BA - News)."

More at:http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/020529/airlines_klm_jets_2.html

A good decision i think. Will KLM buy the 747er?
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Guest

RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 12:41 pm

I guess this is obvious.

Any KLM routes would support A380?
 
Spaceman
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 12:55 pm

I can't believe this!! What a huge Boeing fans they are. Big grin No doubt they are the die hard fans. Big grin Big grin
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 12:59 pm

I don't see the shock here ?. I mean only a special group of a airlines are going to order the A380-800. This is a very large aircraft so you need routes that can handle this amount of traffic.

 
OO-VEG
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 3:16 pm

KLM does not need the A380, most of their 747 aircraft are Combi's. If they can't fill those aircraft with full pax there is certainly no need for a bigger jet.

It is surprising to me they are interested in the Sonic Cruiser..
 
jwenting
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 5:44 pm

No surprise to me at all they're looking at the SC. Would make an ideal aircraft for long low-density routes, could even make some destinations that are not economical with a 747 worth flying (like Australia, which was dropped a few years ago when passenger demand dropped to below economic levels).
A faster smaller aircraft would mean less time on the route. Not only does that make the route cheaper to operate but you have an edge over others using slower aircraft especially in the very lucrative market of business travel.
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Joni
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 6:27 pm


The KLM statement is really interesting, since they're basically saying that they agree with and support Boeing on everything:

-388 is too big for them and many other airlines, too.
-They prefer to buy 777s even though they cost more than 343. The reasons are e.g. larger capacity, their relationship with Boeing and the _climb rates_.
-They are interested, _to buy_, the Sonic Cruiser
-Their passengers prefer frequencies to cheaper fares.

They apparently really do have an excellent relationship.
 
VH-DAQ
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 6:48 pm

maybe KLM is sleeping with the boss  Big grin

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Tom_EDDF
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 6:49 pm

Joni, could you please provide us with a source for your statement that KLM perfers the 777 over the A340 because of the "_climb rates_"?

*Some* passengers prefer frequencies to cheaper fares. But others, especially in those challenging times, prefer cheaper fares, even business customers do that (e.g. my employer, a leading american computer manufacturer, didn't allow us to fly business class anymore!). And just look at the success of low cost airlines as an indicator.

The sonic cruiser is therefore also a niche aircraft and not a 767 replacement IMHO. I would see it on some routes, e.g. on second daily's from Europe to NYC or LAX, but not in a widespread use...
 
LHMark
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 7:20 pm

Over the past forty years, The McDonnell Douglas/Boeing-KLM partnership has aided KLM in becoming one of the world's leading airlines. Why wouldn't they want to stick with them?
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
Joni
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 8:00 pm


Tom_eddf,

The article referenced in the first post in this thread mentions that KLM prefers the 777's climb rate. I mentioned it, since it's been bandied on this forum many times with only a vague reference to singapore airlines wanting a faster climb than the 343 can offer.

Similarly, in the article KLM says that "passengers prefer frequencies". I mentioned all these points, since KLM (an important airline) was in fact repeating what the Boeing-faithful have been saying on this forum many times, which I found to be significant.

 
PH-BFA
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 10:20 pm

Originally KLM is one of the most loyal Douglas(and McDonnelDouglas) customer. They operated DC 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and MD-11. It is quite obvious Boeing has taken that place. I think the Netherlands is not really an Airbus-country. As far as I know it is the only country, which has no passenger-Airbus airplanes, in Europe.

PH-BFA
 
donder10
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 10:41 pm

Farnair Nertherlands and Schrener Airways both use the A300.
 
DTW/ORD Fan!
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 10:55 pm

Umm, if I remember correctly, didn't KLM just order 777's AND A330's?????? That would make it their first ever Airbus the operate. This could be interesting. I hope they go for more 744's, and 744ER's.
 
A388
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Why No A340-500 For KLM

Thu May 30, 2002 11:08 pm

I agree with PH-BFA,

KLM is a very loyal Boeing customer, that's why it surprised me that have shown interest in the A330-200 all of a sudden. I can imagine that they are looking at the A330-200 as their 767-300ER replacement, because there still is no Next Generation 767 and this is not expected to happen any time soon as Boeing is pushing ahead with their Sonic Cruiser. I don't see how some people see the Sonic Cruiser as a 767 replacement aircraft as this aircraft is totally different in my opinion. I also don't understand why KLM is not interested in the A340-500. KLM says they were not interested in the A340-300 because of the aircraft's low climb performance, but the A340-500 is slightly bigger than the A340-300, has a much higher range and has more powerfull engines (isn't the A340-500 believed to be over-powered?).

The A340-500 would suit KLM's network because of its range and it can be used on the mentioned long-haul, low-density destinations such as Australia and some North and South American destinations as well. Why is KLM still not interested in the A340-500? It would fit perfectly if KLM also ordered the A330-200 to replace their 767 fleet and some A340-500's to replace the (remaining) MD11/747-300 fleet.

Regards A388
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 11:10 pm

Good point DTW/ORD Fan

Hasn't KLM jusr ordered BOTH the A330 and 777?

Arsenal@LHR
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A388
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 11:22 pm

That's another unclear thing,

At first KLM announces they will order/lease 777/A330's, than they lease more 777's and the A330-200 order is in doubt. Others believe the A330-200 order/lease is only a way of trying to get Boeing to offer a better deal to KLM. So, what's it going to be? Has the A330-200 order been confirmed by both KLM/Airbus? I haven't seen it on Airbus' website.

Regards A388
 
JAL
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Thu May 30, 2002 11:34 pm

Given KLM and Boeing strong relationship, it is no surprise that they said no to the A380.
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Renton_WA
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 12:42 am

"That would make it their first ever Airbus they operate."

...actually DTW/ORD Fan that is a false statement:


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Greg
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 12:53 am

They mentioned that their preference of the 777 was for economics...not performance. They also mentioned the 777's cost more.

Airlines do not purchase aircraft based on climb performance unless is impacts their economics. While the 340 may not be a rocket ship on climb, it satisfies perfectly the mission for which it was designed. They are both excellently designed and manufactued aircraft.
 
Areopagus
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 1:05 am

When management commits to a big deal, they feel a need to justify their decision, which leads to echoing the vendor's advertising. I have no doubt that KLM will say nice things about Airbus when they finalize the 330 deal.
 
roguetrader
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 3:22 am

I think KLM is an outstanding airline without the normal political entaglements that have bothered BA, AF, and LH.

The comment of the KL executive that the A380 will work on one or possibly two North Atlantic routes, and a few 'thick' Pacific routes is exactly right.

There are virtually no 747s left crossing the N. Atlantic right now, and it has the lowest cost per seat mile for the airlines that use it. So, the airlines RIGHT NOW don't use a larger cheaper airplane when they could: and why? Because passengers want (in the words of KLM) increased frequency and more point to point service where possible. They don't want to connect to one big plane in NY, fly to London, and then connect again, when they could fly nonstop from their home city to Europe, reducing the connections by at least one.

Only on (North Atlantic) routes where the A380 can match a smaller planes frequency will it work well: like KL says, there are one or maybe two. I'd say JFK-LHR it could work, leaving JFK-CDG as a possible second.

KLM is exactly right and as the only major European carrier without political ties to Airbus, I think their evaluation is pivotal.

My remarks refer only to the N. Atlantic.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
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PW100
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 4:20 am

I don't really see why KLM would need 330s for themselves... I do see quite some routes were a 330 would be preferred over a 777. But couldn't they just use NW 330 for this, like they now use NW D10s on quite some routes out of AMS?
BTW which version of the 330 did NW order and what engine type?
It would give them tremendous savings if KLM would concentrate on 744 and 777 for the long haul services. Just two longhaul types! Although for the time being [at least until 2006/2007] they will keep flying the 767 and MD11.

What is the range of the 777ER? Could it do AMS-JKT, AMS-EZE non stop year round?

BTW The article did reveal an interesting point:
"KLM will take eight 300-seat Boeing 777-200ERs (extended range), including four on leases, plus two more in a sale and lease-back deal".
So this confirms what I have stated before: KLM has ordered only 10 777s so far: 8 to replace the 747-300 Combi and 2 to replace the two oldest MD11s. The leases on the 12 767s have been extended by two years. The first 767 lease will now expire in 2005.

It looks like KLM is keeping its options open on how to replace the rest of their longhaul fleet, maybe they are waiting for hard performance guarantees from Boeing on the SC, and gave them a couple of years to come up with it, prior to KLMs decision on how to replace the rest of the longhaul fleet.

Regards,
PW100
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Guest

RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 4:34 am

KLM has not ordered the A330 DTW/ORDfan. They have only ordered 777's to replace the 747-300 and MD-11. I believe that KLM will probably keep the 767 for a long while without replacing it. Their 767's are young and still have a lot of years on them.
 
racko
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 4:47 am

Roguetrader:

"I think KLM is an outstanding airline without the normal political entaglements that have bothered BA, AF, and LH."

"There are virtually no 747s left crossing the N. Atlantic right now"


AF, BA and LH use 747s on north atlantic routes, and they have no problems to fill them. And at least LH & AF were highly proftable before 11.9. and afaik they both still operating profitable. (LH had an operational profit of 20Mio € in 2001)


LH is denationalized since the early 90s, and they relationship with the government isn't really the best (ask the LH CEO about FRA-TXL fares or ask him about a little airport called Hahn).

You simply can't compare KLM with LH, their home market is much smaller. The Netherlands have 15 Million Inhabitants while Germany has 82 Millions and is the 3rd biggest economy in the world...of course this huge population and the strong economy generate much more passengers for an airline. So it's absolutely possible that KLM has problems filling an A380 while LH can fill them easily.

Please think about this before damning Europe, I know you're smart and open-minded enough to understand  Smile
 
roguetrader
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 5:34 am

Racko, I have to respectfully disagree with you. A larger market like Germany would indicate more market fragmentation, like the USA. The places where the A380 would be strong would be in single-airport-dominated countries like LHR, Singapore, NRT, not in places where airports and population are wide and dispersed.

Germany is (for this example only) similar to the USA with many big airports and a population large enough to support using many different airports. The A380 will work best where you have hyper-large airports serving virtually a whole country.

AF, BA and LH use 747s on north atlantic routes, and they have no problems to fill them.

That may be true, but the evidence indicates that twins continue to take over the Atlantic:

if flying 20 years ago and looked at the aircraft that were then flying the Atlantic, most of them would have been Boeing 747s. Now they're mainly twin-engine types
---Aerospace America February, 2001 Interview with Richard Turner of Rolls Royce

Boeing has experienced the market fractionalization in North Atlantic markets, where the 747, once the transport of choice among airlines, has given way to twin-engine transports such as its 767 and Airbus's A310 and A330
---Air Transport World November, 1998

While trans-Atlantic travel started in 747 jumbo jets, smaller twinjet widebod-ies such as Boeing 767s and 777s carry most of that market today
---The Seattle Times January 13, 1997

Also, I didn't mean to 'damn' Europe, but no amount of arguing will ever convince me that AF and LH would have ordered the A380 this early except for the fact that Airbus is important in France and Germany: especially when the other major players in the Atlantic market, the Brits and the Americans, and now the Dutch don't want it.

As I said, I'm not speaking to routes other than N. Atlantic for now.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
manni
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 5:46 am

Didn't JAL at one time mentioned that they would never order the A380?
Never say never...
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racko
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 6:19 am

Roguetrader,

"Racko, I have to respectfully disagree with you. A larger market like Germany would indicate more market fragmentation, like the USA. The places where the A380 would be strong would be in single-airport-dominated countries like LHR, Singapore, NRT, not in places where airports and population are wide and dispersed."

Germany is (for this example only) similar to the USA with many big airports and a population large enough to support using many different airports. The A380 will work best where you have hyper-large airports serving virtually a whole country.


Well, Germany is big in terms of inhabitants, but counting the space it's quite a small country. America has about 3,5 times more inhabitants than Germany, but it is 26 times bigger! That's why there are so many airlines in the USA compared with Germany, here you can drive from the one end of the country to the other within one day, and a trainride from Hamburg (In the North) to Munich (In the south) with the ICE highspeed train takes less than 6 hours.

Germany has only 2 hubs at the moment, Frankfurt (~50Mio passengers) and Munich (~25Mio passengers), which serve the whole country with transatlantic flights - Frankfurt especially northern Germany, Munich southern Germany. There might be a third big hub in 5-15 years, Berlin, to serve eastern Germany - at the moment the ex-GDR is backward compared with western Germany and doesn't justify an own hub. Düsseldorf is big due to the holiday airline LTU. So currently there are 83 Mio people split up on only 2 airports.

That's why comparing the USA and Germany is like comparing apples and oranges.

"Also, I didn't mean to 'damn' Europe, but no amount of arguing will ever convince me that AF and LH would have ordered the A380 this early except for the fact that Airbus is important in France and Germany: especially when the other major players in the Atlantic market, the Brits and the Americans, and now the Dutch don't want it."

Political pressure might have played a role with the Air France deal, but I doubt that it was the main reason. About British Airways, they are in a worse condition than AF & LH at the moment, they had to fire thousands of employees after 11.9. while LH didn't fire anyone. I'm very sure that BA will order the A380 in the nearer future, as soon as there is a strong economic upturn.

 
Guest

RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 8:05 am

Spaceman,

Talking about die hard Boeing fans, talk about Continental and Delta. All Boeing fleet.. Heck, CO's CEO used to be a Boeing exec..
 
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RayChuang
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 9:21 am

The reason why LH will buy the A380-800 is simple: the demand for such a big plane is already there.

After all, why do you think LH flights to JFK, LAX, and SFO from FRA use the 747-400 now? Because of the Star Alliance relationship with UA, UA frequent mile passholders can get UA frequent-flyer miles on LH flights, which also adds to LH transatlantic traffic.

Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, LH flies the FRA-SFO-FRA route with the 744 and the MUC-SFO-MUC route with the A340-300. By 2007, I expect LH to fly FRA-SFO-FRA with the A380 and MUC-SFO-MUC with either the 744 or A340-600. A lot of Germans fly to the Bay Area on both business and tourist traffic; why do you think many of the Bay Area tourist hot spots are overrun with German tourists almost year-round?  Smile
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 11:56 am

The only way I could see the A380 necessary on a route for KLM is if they took over the Bombay- DTW route with the stop in AMS that Northwest currently operates as a code share. A 744 is always used and is always loaded. There are four AMS-DTW flights a day on Northwest/KLM. One comes in at 10:30a, 1:00p, 5:00p and 7:30 p. The 5:00p flight uses a KLM MD-11, the 1:00p flight is a NW 744 and the first and last flights are DC-10s. If KLM took over the 7:30 flight, perhaps they could merge the 5:00p and 7:30 flight. Between the two flights you get about 550 passengers.


When will KLM start flying the 777s to DTW?
 
Joni
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 6:27 pm


Smaller twins have captured market share from rhe 747 over the Atlantic over the past 20 years, but this doesn't preclude the possibility that 380 would take market share from the twins. Traffic over the Atlantic is very dense and if the 380 offers 20% cheaper tickets (than the twins), it's certainly possible that it will eventually be used by several airlines on that market and carry a larger fraction of the traffic than the 747 does now.

 
LJ
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 8:23 pm

The A380 would not fit into KLM's operations. None of the routes operated out of AMS are big enough for this plane, unless you reduce the frequency on that route. O&D traffic at AMS is not as large as London, Frankfurt and Paris and simply can't support A380 operations (I would be surprised to see a passenger A380 on a regular basis at AMS). Buying the A380 would mean overcapacity on certain routes ex AMS and hence low yield and thus low profits. LH and AF don't have this problem is there is enough O&D traffic to fill the A380 without hurting the number of frequencies on that route. Will this mean that KLM loose some of its competitive edge due to higher costs? Probably, but if KLM would buy the A380 they would also loose some its competitive edge as they would have to reduce the frequency on the route.

HlywdCattf, due to KLM's hub system both the 5pm and 7.30pm flight make sense. At present there leaves a flight to DTW in every intercontinental wave with an additional flight in the early morning. Ideally the 2.30pm flight should return in order to have every wave covered.

Regards
Laurens

 
Konstantinos
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 10:51 pm

PH-BFA,

"...I think the Netherlands is not really an Airbus-country. As far as I know it is the only country, which has no passenger-Airbus airplanes, in Europe."

Could this be because their Fokker failed to sell ???
 
LJ
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Fri May 31, 2002 10:59 pm

Konstantinos, Fokker didn't even manage to sell their F100s to KLM (yes KLM boughta few but couldn't get rid of them fast enough allthough KLM is curently a big F70 fan). Moreover, the Dutch aviation scene is dominated by KLM and KLM is just not a big Airbus supporter (due to bad experiences with their A310s). Fortunately, the Dutch government doesn't have any influence over KLM. If they had then KLM would have bought Airbus instantly (the Dutch government wants KLM to buy Airbus products because it will make The Netherlands look more European and is good for Dutch business).

Regards
Laurens
 
DutchWings
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Sun Jun 02, 2002 7:29 am

Racko, actually The Netherlands have already more then 16 million inhabitants but still not many compared to our big neighbour Germany...
 
racko
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Sun Jun 02, 2002 7:41 am

Sorry, didn't know the correct figure  Big grin but I also made a mistake with the German figure in my first post, I wrote 82 Mio instead of of 83 Mio
 
BWIA 772
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RE: KLM Says NO To A380

Sun Jun 02, 2002 1:42 pm

With regard to the 767s and A330. The 767 needs the NG phase the 400 is trying to attemp it but is failing. What needs to be done is for boeing to have a 777 the size of the 767 that all they need and make it compatiable with the 737s 777s, 757s and 747 ifs that can be done. I am suprise that they havent done this as yet they have neglected this prgramme in my eyes and Airvus has just taken it over with ease.

But as a Boeing fan they need to do something bout his. I think that 757 needs to be stream lined with the 737 family so like airbus 320 family100-200 segment.
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