pressclub
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 10:24 am

Can This Belgian Project Be Succesful?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 3:56 am

Hi guys

I have heard from a Belgian aviation project that is under study now

An airline project that consists of a hub in Belgium and one in Africa served with Candair Regional Jets, Boeing 767 and Boeing 737.

Is there a marketplace for this? What do you think?


 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 3924
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Succesful?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 4:03 am

I doubt it, problem are the traffic rights. Within the EU and to Africa it won´t be a problem but traffic rights within Africa could be difficult to obtain. A market place could be there, however: how much can you rely on Europe-feed and how much O&D traffic will be there?

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
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keesje
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RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Successful?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 4:05 am

Well, daily (business travellers) filling up a 767 next to the established AF, KL networks can be a bit risky in these times IMO  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Oh sorry, I mean PROFITABLE filling up a 767.

ask VG

keesje
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
airDD
Posts: 367
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RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Succesful?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 4:39 am


Interesting !

I really thought that the collapse of SN would start a consolidation process in the EU...

But there have never been so many small aviation projects in Belgium.

The longterm prospects for these airliners is doubtful and I am suspecting that it will keep big airliners out of Brussels; BRU might be become a real ghost airport in the future.

I think it is too late to start building a hub in Brussels; BRU should try to attract a major airliners (a la Easyjet) with o/d flights serving the major cities in Europe.

airDD
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Succesful?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 6:05 am

I guess you are talking about the project of all the ex-Sabena and City Bird pilots.

Well, like BEAP announced, they want a coöperation with other Belgian carriers.
So if they can code share, why won't there be a place.

Although, a code share with SNBA will be necessary.
If the deal with VEX and SNBA ends the 31th of March 2003, I don't think that VEX will survive long. This can also affect VG Airlines.

I hope to see their first flight soon.
And like already mentioned in the VG topic, why not give an airline without politic influence give a chance. It is the best way to prove that such an airline can be profitable or not.

Regards,
Frederic

 
A330DAT
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 2:21 am

Sabena 690

Sat Jun 01, 2002 7:10 am

You're absolutely right Sabena690. This is part of Beap!
 
Guest

RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Succesful?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 8:59 am

No chance of success at all. No significant pax flows, competition with estanblished carriers, far too complicated fleet etc.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Succesful?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 9:06 am

Air DD,
I agree with you.European aviation needs American post de-regulation-esque consolidation,but this would need the EU to get a complete EU-US Open Skies agreement instead of US-individual states.BRU might get some EZY flights in the future,but I suspect these will be more of a 'hub to spoke 'operation compared to EZY's operation at AMS.
 
airDD
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 3:06 am

RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Successful?

Sun Jun 02, 2002 3:24 am


Donder10,

I don't think the European consolidation should wait on the open skies agreement with the USA.

Low cost airliners seem to be able to set up EU wide ops where as the flag-carrier are unsuccessful trying this.

Talking about the open skies agreements... A while back I have read the Belgium-USA agreement signed in 1995... Very funny to read how nicely it protects the late Sabena together with partner DL from competition, not very open  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

airDD
 
donder10
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RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Succesful?

Sun Jun 02, 2002 5:56 am

Low-cost carriers are able to setup EU wide ops because they are only operating short routes but the key is that they are point to point in theory.
Major airlines in Europe can only do their country-US so consolidation hasn't occured so they shuttle it all via their hub.
 
myself
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 10:04 pm

RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Succesful?

Sun Jun 02, 2002 7:45 am

Sabena 690,

you say "If the deal with VEX and SNBA ends the 31th of March 2003, I don't think that VEX will survive long. This can also affect VG Airlines."

I would be inclined to expect the opposite to happen :
VEX will continue to fly loads of passengers on very dense routes.
SN Bru is "all over the place", meaning "everywhere and nowhere".

Also :
VEX has a "cleaner and friendlier" image than SN Bru.
(mind you all, I didn't say that "SN Bru doesn't have a clean and friendly image" !!  Wink/being sarcastic )

Ever heard publicity for SN BRU on the radio, ever seen big campaigns on billboards or in magazines & newspapers ? It's about time you start with it, guys ! (The ad in last weekends newspaper was not a very good attempt : July & August fares published on Saturday and valid until Monday. Who decides in two days where and when exactly he will go on holiday ?)


VEX can renew its fleet with NGs at almost no cost.
SN Bru : well.....how long are they stuck to their renegotiated leasing contracts (anybody knows ?). The aircraft is out of production also, so what next and at what cost ?


I might have overlooked arguments that are in favour of SN-Bru, but I fear there aren't that many. ("fear" being just an expression of "fear" for another bunch of pilots getting jobless, not necessarily because I sympathize with VEX)





 
airDD
Posts: 367
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RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Succesful?

Sun Jun 02, 2002 8:10 am


Seems like everybody in Belgium hopes VEX will die (maybe it is because they are not government owned  Smile )

There is a good chance that VEX might be bought by Buzz or Easyjet in the near future ... then thinks might look very different in BRU....
 
myself
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 10:04 pm

RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Succesful?

Sun Jun 02, 2002 8:38 am

Hey how, hold it please.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

AirDD,

I'm not hoping VEX will die (on the contrary even !)

I just didn't want my reply to be considered as "pro-VEX and contra-DAT" or vice versa.


 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Succesful?

Sun Jun 02, 2002 5:08 pm

Hello,

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the VEX routes with an SNBA code share not the only good profitable routes for VEX?

I thought that they couldn't survive without the SNBA code shares. This was written somewhere in a previous post.

So, this means that if the SN-TV contract ends, that the future is not bright at all for VEX. And this can indeed cause problems with the VG connecting pax and with the VG contracts.

Please, correct me if I am wrong on this.

And I certainly don't want that VEX dies!!!!

Regards,
Frederic
 
LJ
Posts: 4116
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Can This Belgian Project Be Succesful?

Sun Jun 02, 2002 5:32 pm

VEX gets (or got) around 40% of the turnover from the codeshare flights. Thus still 60% is pure VEX turnover. Even if you scrap all routes where SNBA will fly to you still end up with some routes left. If this means yet another restructuring of VEX so be it, but saying it's the end of VEX is a little bit strange. Moreover, the end of the SNBA contract may result in a better focus of VEX to its core business namely the low cost business.

If VEX is going to die then I'm sure some other low cost operator will probably look to BRU with great interest, and that's porbably the last good thing for Belgian aviation.

Regards
Laurens