too low
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:15 am

AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 4:42 am

According to AEA (RPK ASK Load Factor) :

AF 8308.9 10827.3 76.7
BA 7853.9 11286.1 69.6
LH 7541.0 9920.1 76.0
LX 2709.9 3910.0 69.3

AF is number 1 !
 
Emile
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2000 10:42 pm

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 5:06 am

state aid you mean.....
 
teva
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 5:56 am

Emile,
I am very sad to read such a comment form a European.
You should know that a government can not give aids to an airline without the approval of the EU commission in Brussels.
And you should forget ideology to look at facts.
The most important is the management.
If you look at the early 90s, AF almost died because of a very poor management, and BA was one of the most profitable airlines in the world.
At this time, everyone was saying that AF problems were due to its status, and that only privatized airlines could be profitable, because of a better management.

Today, AF is the most profitable airline in Europe, the 3rd in the world, and BA is loosing lots of money....
The difference: two fantastic CEOs, chosen by the government: Mr Blanc and Spinetta., who have been able to change the mentality of the employees and redisign the services

I could also add that , thanks to the very good management of the private airline KLM, I lost my job in 92 (KLM force one of its subsidiary to fly F100 with 1 pax when it could have been full easily)
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
airDD
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 3:06 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 6:43 am


TEVA,

BA never good any state money and AF was bailed out the government in 1995

Profit after subsidy is not something to be proud of


 
AF Cabin Crew
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 11:45 pm

AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 6:49 am

Ia Orana Teva !

Just note that Emile has always had the tendency to post irrelevant comments about Air France. He hates the airline with a great passion and anything he says about our national airline shouldn't be taken seriously.

Every one at Air France is very happy about the performance of the company. We weren't expecting such good results but we are all proud to have hard working CEO's and workforce. The flights are full we are seeing a n 80 to 85 % average load factors.
To prove it I just got back from IAD this morning on AF 039 and we had 9P 56J and 199 Y on our 777.
Everyone at Air France is willing to work hard and serve the company the best we can... and it shows !

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew.


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Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 6:50 am

BA & LH are performing as private companies while AF & LX are government-owned/heavily subsidied by the government. LH didn't get any money for their losses after the 11.9. so far, I don't know about BA. It's unfair to compare independent companies with airlines which have a whole state supporting them.
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 6:51 am

"The flights are full we are seeing a n 80 to 85 % average load factors."

versus

"According to AEA (RPK ASK Load Factor) :
AF 8308.9 10827.3 76.7"

 
AF Cabin Crew
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 11:45 pm

AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 6:56 am

Racko,
AEA has the 2001-2002 load factors. I should have put in my post that these are April and May results.
Now, I would like to ask any of you if you know what the money was used for ? Were there any conditions imposed on AF to get this money ? What the French government is holding of AF ? When was the last time AF received any money from the government ?

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew.


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Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 7:03 am

"I would like to ask any of you if you know what the money was used for ?"

Well, paying employees, paying gas, paying planes...there are many things airlines spend money on.

"Were there any conditions imposed on AF to get this money ?"

I don't know.

"What the French government is holding of AF ?"

2000 figure was 76,5%.

"When was the last time AF received any money from the government ?"

Winter 2001/2002.
 
DutchWings
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 11:30 pm

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 7:10 am

They are a very good airline indeed , but please AF, give your planes some color!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
AF Cabin Crew
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 11:45 pm

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 7:18 am

Racko !!!!!

My of my... Do I want to take you seriously now !

The money the airline got was used mainly to fund the retirement plans of most employees who were earning very, very, very decent salaries, some was used to lower the debts AF had.
In order for AF to get all of this, no more planes to be ordered until 1996, 5 full years without being able to order an aircraft, flying old ones, every majority stake in most airlines AF owned had to be sold and gone were TAT, SABENA. No expansion was aloud, no new routes, nothing ! AF was forced to live of what it had. Christian blanc had to lower the cabin crew's wages by 30 % and increase the flying hours by 30 % !!! He renegotiated every single contract AF had with the caterer's, airports etc... With the money saved he launched a new product called Le Printemps d'Air France, in came the Euroconcept for European flights and the launch of l'Espace and Tempo products.
AS of today France is holding 53% of the airline. Should the actual government stay in place you will see that within a year AF will be a private airline as the transport ministry has expressed its intention to sell its shares in the airline.
Yes we got some money from the government post Septmeber 11. But all French airlines did and some others worldwide did also and this can not be qualified as state aid, but compensation and AF 's result do not take into account any of this money nor aircraft cession.

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew


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Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
 
Guest

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 7:22 am

Hi.

Indeed, AF received E55 million in compensation from France for the 9/11 effect. Low oil prices also helped.

Nevertheless, it remains the case, in my opinion, that AF provide a very good cabin service on long-distance flights; this is a fact, irrespective of who owns the airline. I flew AF last year to Angola from London, in Affaires-wow, what excellent attention from the cabin staff and very 'chic' service!

Of course in a business sense, it is unfair for airlines which compete with AF without state aid, but from a pax perspective, they are great!  Big thumbs up

Cheers
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 8:19 am

What good news to hear. Since SkyTeam was formed AF has gone from 3rd largest in Europe to 1st. DL has done well to have them as a partner.

I have been told here in the US that BA has been hurt in ATL, BOS, WAS as the Delta frequent flyer base in these cities is opting to fly AF via CDG rather than BA via LON. The same for cargo as well, with DL's domestic widebodies and AF and KL frieghters, Skyteam continues to capture more market share in U.S exports.


 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 3:17 pm

AF has one very big advantage: CDG
CDG is a modern big (although totally messy) airport with enough room to let AF expand. Compare this to LHR and FRA and you know one of the main reasons why AF is doing so well.

LH is just trying to solve this problem by adding very many flights to MUC, however FRA stalls at the moment, and things in LHR wont get any better without another runway, T5 built or not.

If an airport like ORD can be slot-less, why cant big european hubs be as well??

SailorOrion
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 5:29 pm

Hello,

It is very interesting to see what people just play by the rules and admit the airline has done well because it worked hard for it, and those who shamefully come up with the subsidy argument. Those people definetely know they are wrong, and they know their respective states have also helped their national flagcarrier.

Don't tell me giving an exclusivity at a terminal in an important airport, refusing to open up an airport to the competition, spying data from other airlines, etc. don't help airlines. If you want to make a comparison, then just put everything on the table and back up your statements with evidence.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
Air Transport Business
 
tripple7
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 8:53 pm

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Sun Jun 02, 2002 5:30 pm

Is LX fourth in Europe....or did Too Low not publish all the relevant load factors...what about Iberia, AlItalia, KLM, and SAS?

regards
tripple7
 
keesje
Posts: 8590
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Mon Jun 03, 2002 6:26 am

AF received more the $ 4 billion in state aid in the last 12 years. French officials veto any actions against it in the E.C, supported by Italians and Spanish officials (surprise ?)

Lots of new aircraft were subisidized because they were "cleaner" and "more silent". The french government own AFs, CDG, part of Airbus and negotiates bilateral deals for AF.

All remaining serious french airlines were neutralized while the French government watched. AF domestic marketshare : 90% ?

Now they have some succes maybe AF wants to forget/re-write history ...

What France needs is a full strenght Low Cost airline operating from Paris and all major French city´s. Cut all in-visible subsidies and lets see how strong they are in the real world ...

Probably the government will block it somehow ......
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
flpuck6
Posts: 2047
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 1999 12:32 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Mon Jun 03, 2002 7:47 am

For those of us capitalists, it is hard to give credit to a "public" airline. Not every airline has to be run according to capitalistic theories. What airline would France have if it didn't support Air France? Aeris is doing well, but only a charter company (a private one at that, if I remember correctly). Air Lib is still in the process of what, in my opinoin, will be a long restructuration. Euralair etc. = charter.

Gov't subsidies don't always work anyway...look at Swissair and Sabena.

But Air France definitely has its act together. They are capitalizing on opportunities that bring big returns. Their organization of CDG as a hub is a huge asset. What other airport has more room to expand? LHR, NOT. FRA, nope. CDG and AF will soon, if it is not already, be Europe's most important airport.
Bonjour Chef!
 
keesje
Posts: 8590
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:46 pm

Ever made transfer on CDG ?

:-(

Obviously not ..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
TriStar500
Posts: 4411
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 9:50 pm

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:54 pm

I disagree to the argument that FRA has no room to expand. The airport is getting another (4th) runway by 2007/8 and another terminal (located south of the main runways at the former US air base) by the same time.
On the other hand, according to the current political statements (made by Monsieur Jospin, so this might change soon), CDG has a capacity cap of 55 million passenger annually and there is still the intention to impose a night flight ban on the airport.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Mon Jun 03, 2002 6:10 pm

Hello Chris,

France is not the USSR of Western Europe  Smile/happy/getting dizzy It's not because the French economy is an exact compy of the what the Anglo-Saxons do that it cannot be capitalism!

And don't tell me you don't know what subsidies are on your side of the Atlantic... You're probably more experienced than we are in this field.


Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
flpuck6
Posts: 2047
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 1999 12:32 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Mon Jun 03, 2002 10:52 pm

Hello Alain-

Yes yes, I know the Americans know very well what subsidies are! It's undisputedly a hot arguement between socialist/capitalistic govt's and the US.

I didn't mean to insinuate that France was at all the USSR of Western Europe...you should know that  Big grin

Keesje, no, I have never made a connection at CDG, but my Mom and brother have...they told it me it was close to hell. They parked their inbound from BOS plane all the way out in Orly (ok, exaggeration) and bussed them to the terminal where they then had to sprint to catch the CDG-TLS (Toulouse) flight. Perhaps the connection timing is something AF ops needs to look at...

But not straying away from the topic, all subsidies arguements put aside, you cannot argue that Air France is not doing well when the other majors are struggling to make a profit.

-Chris
Bonjour Chef!
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:01 am

From my understanding, CDG will be a better experience when the next phase of Terminal 2 opens up. Anybody have information on this?

 
Andreas
Posts: 5880
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:56 pm

Thank You Keesje!...

Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:49 am

...up until I read your posting, I really thought I 'm looking at a completely different movie, as we say in Germany.
Just a few things to add:
1. AF used restructuring and fleet modernisation subisidies they received in the 90ies to finance a price war against BA on the Europe-Asian routes and against the US carriers on the Northern Atlantic routes, thereby openly ignoring the verdict of the EU commission.

2. Sorry to all you AF defenders, but it is in fact totally useless to compare the profit and loss account of AF to other carriers such as BA and LH. It just is, why denying it? Lovely to see that AF seems to be on a good way, my congratulations, but don't compare them to BA or LH, that just sounds like a little snotnose who beats up other kids, knowing that big brother is there to help him out of any bad situation...not really nice!

Regards
Andreas

PS: Will the French soccer team use AF to fly home if they lose again??? Big grin
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
keesje
Posts: 8590
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Tue Jun 04, 2002 10:06 pm

Agreeing on your verdict on AF,

I must say I like to see the french soccer team,

especially the Algerian guy, fabulous overview & technic ....

If it was an AF team, the other team probably would be denied access to the 23m area by a FIFA official
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:29 am

Andreas,

Seien Sie nicht zu eitel... Eben wenn die Wahrheit ist, dass die kleinen Franzosen etwas den grossen Deutschen beibringen können.

It's forbidden by the European Comission to be a price-leader after getting some subsidies. Alitalia got a sanction in 1999 because they did it. Air France managed to be more competitive than some of its competitors thanks to its investments in the construction of the CDG hub as well as the IT for the Revenue Management division.


Best regards,
Alain Mengus
Air Transport Business
 
sk945
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:28 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:37 am

I think AF is a great airline. I also think that some of you here ain't fair. I guess that almost every airline in the world in some way got some help from its goverment. In AF case the state is a large owner, and there for its natural that they put some new cash in the company if needed. Others carriers get help in other ways. It could be limitations for other carriers to enter the market, slot times etc, all controlled by the goverment in the local country. Ain't that help?
More Open Skies - and no state owned airlines.
Regards
SK945
 
Emile
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2000 10:42 pm

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:29 am

higher landing fees for state owned airliners,air france,alitalia and i don,t want to speak about SWISS AIRLINES THEY MAKE ME SICK.see klm doing so well but becauce they don,t have a home markt to small,they have to join one other alliance because thoose bloody state owned airliners they killed KLM.
 
sk945
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:28 am

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:33 am

Emile,
I didnt know that KLM was dead!
 
fa4af
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 11:42 pm

RE: AF : First European Airline In April

Wed Jun 05, 2002 7:37 am

hi to you all !
i work for AF and I am really impressed by the reactions to this thread. Why is it that when AF does poorly, it is, according to some of you, due to its lack of management, poor service, lack of competition, strikes and so on, and suddenly, when we do things right, then it is thanks to state aid ? Why is it not the result of good management during the crisis, favourable conditions at CDG, the right alliance (and surprisingly, we have not seen mister DeltaSFO complaining yet about how we at AF love to mistreat DL top clients !?) and a real revolution within the airline. Some of you only see the 53% owned by the government. How about the 15% that are emloyee-owned ? I would love to hear about BA LH and KL employee-owned shares....
In a word: AF is one of the best today. And we owe it to our clients, whether they come from The Netherlands, Germany or the UK and some of you just would better get used to it !
 
keesje
Posts: 8590
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

National Pride Has Deep Pockets

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:51 pm

It's like not paying your bills, cheating your neighbours, accuse everybody in the street for years and then being reborn one day and ask "what's the problem ? I'm a nice guy Now !"


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Like Andreas said :
Lovely to see that AF seems to be on a good way, my congratulations, but don't compare them to BA or LH, that just sounds like a little snotnose who beats up other kids, knowing that big brother is there to help him out of any bad situation...not really nice!

If you give an airline a guaranteed cash pipeline it always can offer a good product, new aircraft, airport and service ...

National Pride has deep pockets ....
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway

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