bobcat
Posts: 1141
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:28 pm

CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Tue Jun 04, 2002 9:06 pm



On my way home last night, I was listening to local all-news radio station.(CBS Radio) I only heard the last few lines of a report regarding the CI #611 crash last week. They said investigators are now trying to determine why the 747-200 performed a series of violent maneuvers about 8 to 10 minutes prior to the breaking up of the plane.

If anyone still has the ATC transcript, did the CI pilots report this to the ATC? Was it turbulence or something?
 
VH-DAQ
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2001 9:16 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Tue Jun 04, 2002 9:29 pm

after reading the transcripts that have been posted on forums there was no report of anything. it just dissapeared off radar and that was it.

HOOroo
DAQ
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:04 am

8 to 10 Minutes !!, are you sure ??.
 
bobcat
Posts: 1141
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:28 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:35 am

Here's an update, according to CCTV English news(Telstar 5 in North America), the CI 747-200 made at least ten sudden acceleration/deceleration TWO & HALF minutes prior to disappearing from the Chinese air traffic radar. The plane's direction also chaged left/right, up/down several times at the same time.

The same broadcast can be seen via Newsworld Int'l, a Canadian channel that re-broadcast news from foreign stations. (channel 364 on DirecTV)
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:44 am

If true, that pretty much eliminates the collision,fuel tank, missle, or bomb theories. It could be one of those one in many billion confluence of multiple events (clear air turblulence, unlikely structural failure) that may never be explained.
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:45 am

Strange...

I think that it is due to technical problems, or turbulence. What else could it be? Any suggestions?

Regards,
Frederic
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:49 am

If it turns out to be technical problem, it had to have been huge. A 747 is designed to withstand 9Gs of stress. It would require a tremendous amount of force to break the plane into four parts. Same for turbulence. I wonder if the joints of the fuselage undergo maintenance during a D-check.
 
na
Posts: 9129
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Cras

Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:39 am

If thats true (and why should it be untrue?) the center fuel tank explosion theory is dead. A possible scenario could be that a clear wheather turbulence caused a already weak structure to break.
Or could it have been something like the Lauda Air desaster 11 years ago (reverse thrust misfunction)?
What about the reports of meteorites going down at that time? I read something like that here.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 2:23 am

I think the only doubt is the completeness of radar data. They are still compiling information to ensure the radar returns were not erroneous. I don't doubt the veracity of the radio report.
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6007
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:00 am

Someone sent me all the radar data last week. Unfortunately I deleted it off my computer, but it did include several sudden speed drops on 100+ kts associated, if I remember correctly, with heading changes of 90 degrees to the left in a turn that took 11 secs, (Quite a steep turn when at altitude) and then a few minutes later, after recovering heading to track heading, another change of 90 degrees or so, also for 11secs to the right.

If this was associated with steep climbs and descents as well, I wonder if something happened to the rudder/evelator assemblies. Perhaps the rear pressure bulkhead blew out taking some of the control surfaces with it?
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:33 am

Sounds like it, Just like the JAL.......
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:39 am

but it did include several sudden speed drops on 100+ kts associated, if I remember correctly, with heading changes of 90 degrees to the left in a turn that took 11 secs

That's not aircraft-caused. There were external factors ie turbulance.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6007
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 2:03 pm

I don't think that the CI were in a known area of turbulence, unless there were thunderstorms that day which they decided to fly through. Does anyone have weather data for that route at the time the a/c went down?
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 3:57 pm

I think China is doing a VERY bad job of covering up an OBVIOUS dogfight.

I remember one time I saw the Concorde doing all sorts of evasive manuevers avoiding fighter jets and missiles, adn eventually crashed in the snow.

Oh, wait, that was "Airport '79". My bad.
Phil Derner Jr.
 
lmml 14/32
Posts: 2358
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:27 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 3:59 pm

Wouldn't the pilot have reported severe turbulence? It could be that the pilots were fooling around with the aircraft.
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:09 pm

Re: JAL incident.. i'm thinking the same thing....

It sounds like the plane is "fishtailing" in the air, which means the tail assembly was absent or rudder fell off.. but if you loose a rudder, you can *technically* still fly... it wouldn't cause you to blow up. Now if it was hit by another object, then that *should* show up on radar...

Could it be possible there was an extreme depressurization, which would knock everyone out in about 5 seconds at that altitude..... ??

-nate
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
smolt
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 12:11 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:12 pm

Retyping the data from the Taiwanese Aviation Authority,
http://www.asc.gov.tw/asc/_file/2006/upload/news/CI611-RADAR.pdf

No. EAST NORTH TIME HEADING SPEED ALTITUDE
1 119.70028 24.02333 152744 226 453 34000
2 119.68111 24.0075 152756 226 442 34300 (after this disappered)
3 119.66139 23.98917 152808 226 450 34300
4 119.64139 23.97167 152819 226 451 34700
5 119.62694 23.95444 152831 224 432 34700
6 119.68083 23.98306 152843 070 413 34700
7 119.70417 24.00778 152855 057 417 36911
8 119.69111 23.9875 152907 186 241 35158.37
9 119.6725 23.97861 152919 217 251 34343.11
10 119.65111 23.96806 152931 228 281 35417.89
11 119.64583 23.96194 152943 227 255 34553.98
12 119.69278 23.99472 152955 055 309 32259.17
13 119.71056 24.01083 153007 051 343 32551.94
14 119.72111 24.01667 153019 053 305 32663.8
15 119.71028 23.97161 153031 148 281 31797.43
16 119.70611 24.00528 153043 018 218 31797.43
17 119.71139 24.01639 153055 020 218 31470.83
18 119.71278 24.02278 153107 019 187 32173.46
19 119.69583 23.97083 153119 186 182 31918.21
20 119.6825 23.95944 153131 204 184 31918.21
21 119.72083 24.00778 153143 065 197 32077.21
22 119.71056 23.97611 153155 181 197 31127.73
23 119.60417 23.56556 153207 172 198 31127.73
24 119.605 23.56028 153219 000 000 31127.73
 
T prop
Posts: 910
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:33 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Manoeuvres Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:29 pm

A high altitude upset can easily cause the aircraft to perform violent manoeuvres to the point of structural failure. In fact in 1985 China Airlines had it happen to one of their 747SP's although it didn't come apart. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001214X35672&key=1

One more thing:
'A 747 is designed to withstand 9Gs of stress'

um... I don't think so.

T prop.


 
oxygen
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 1999 12:27 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:35 pm

Hey BigPhilNYC,

Is there any benefits that the People's Republic of China can get by doing so to the Republic of China ? I am not clever enough to figure it out.
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6007
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:52 pm

I doubt the mainland has anything to do with the crash.

Losing a tail would not cause the aircraft to break up, but that's what the AA A300 started to do last year after it lost it's tail didn't it? It it was at 30,000ft, it might have fallen to bits as well.
 
Admiral Ackbar
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 2:26 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:07 pm

A 747 is designed to withstand 9Gs of stress

Unless you have evidence to back this up, I seriously, seriously doubt this. The Big Guy is cool, but he ain't exactly an F-16  Smile
 
smolt
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 12:11 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:42 pm

The data above get me feel;
1. the location data east and north from no. 6 does not seem to reflect the ACTUAL locations. Plotting them the aircraft is flying the zig zag way even the fighter could not do.(only a flying saucer could)
2. if I can ignore the location data, the aircraft seem to enter to a horizontal spin from the left to the right.
3. data of the speed and the altitude look like to have mutual relationship of a certain significance; when the altitude lost, the speed gained. when the altitude gained, the speed lost.

regards
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:02 pm

T-prop and Admiral Ackbar,

The 747 is designed to survive 9gs of stress intact- not meant to be operated regularly under 9gs. I have heard/read that in several places: Discovery channel, Boeing Everett tour, and other places. I don't catalog the stuff but I don't make it up either.

 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 9:16 am

"Is there any benefits that the People's Republic of China can get by doing so to the Republic of China ? I am not clever enough to figure it out. "

Actually, there are many reason why they would shoot down their own plane.

Feeling that they need to eliminate one speicfic passenger on board or somethign that we may never understand.

But why could it only have been China? Who said it's not a terrorist attack form some other country?
Phil Derner Jr.
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 9:18 am

well flight attendant and cockpit jumpseats are suppose to withstand like 10 G's or so....

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
madog
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2000 10:36 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 9:35 am

". A 747 is designed to withstand 9Gs of stress. It would require a tremendous amount of force to break the plane into four parts."

Hmmm... i don't think so.

When the China Airlines 747SP dived out of control flying over the Pacific in 1985 (not sure excatly), it pulled a recorded maximum loading of 5Gs. Boeing stated that the operational limit is 2.5Gs. 5Gs is 2 times the operational limit but is still within the design limit.

A 747 pulling 9Gs simply would break up in no time.
 
na
Posts: 9129
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Cras

Thu Jun 06, 2002 4:08 pm

If it wasn´t an explosion (and the lack of fire traces and the strange movements already minutes before the final disastrous event points in the direction it wasn´t) what could have caused a large part of the aircraft to shoot in the opposite direction the aircraft flew?
My other question: Could it be that someone tried to commit suicide on the controls (like the Egyptair scenario in 99) or madman shot the pilots?
 
VirginFlyer
Posts: 3890
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Manoeuvres Minutes Before Cra

Thu Jun 06, 2002 4:21 pm

Na - an explosive decompression could have ejected part of the aircraft backwards. The force of the air escaping out the back of the aircraft would be significant - it could quite conceivably propel part of the airframe backwards.

I must say, this is sounding more and more like a rear pressure bulkhead failure. Which would point at a maintenance error. Which doesn't bode terribly well for CI.

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
aerosol
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:31 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 5:19 pm

At that point of the investigation everything is possible, even the collision with a drone (I don't think so, but it is possible).
 
oxygen
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 1999 12:27 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 6:13 pm

About the explosion, could the explosion happen after the mid-air disintergration happen? maybe after the aircraft came apart, the fuel get exposed and some sparks (caused by the tearing of the electrical circuits) ignited the fuel and the explosion resulted blew one piece in the opposite direction.

By the way, BigPhilNYC,

""Actually, there are many reason why they would shoot down their own plane. ''''

" THEY would shoot down THEIR own plane.... Are you referring the 'People's republic of China' and the 'Republic of China' as one country? the People's Republic of china means mainland China while the Republic of China means Taiwan. I got a feeling that you are mixing them up.


 
Joni
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 8:16 pm


Perhaps there was a struggle in the cockpit that caused both the violent maneuvres and also the hull break-up?

 
APP
Posts: 502
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 7:11 am

RE: CI 747's Violent Maneuvers Minutes Before Crash?

Sat Jun 08, 2002 8:28 am

Anyone know whether the CVR and/or FDR has been recovered yet?
APP.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aesma, afriwing, cuban8, Johnv707, mrromalley, Qatara340, QF64, reidar76, rutankrd, StTim, VirginFlyer, Yahoo [Bot] and 304 guests