flyingbronco05
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Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:40 am

"WASHINGTON, June 4 (Reuters) - Civil rights groups filed lawsuits against four major airlines on Tuesday, alleging discrimination against five men who were removed from flights after the Sept. 11 attacks because they looked Middle Eastern.
The American Civil Liberties Union and the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee named United Airlines(NYSE:UAL - News), American Airlines(NYSE:AMR - News), Continental Airlines(NYSE:CAL - News) and Northwest Airlines(NasdaqNM:NWAC - News) in the suits filed in federal court in Maryland, New Jersey and California."

More at: http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/020604/attack_lawsuits_2.html

Any comments are welcomed! This seems like a case just to get easy money.
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:55 am

No Comments needed. Just look... OMG, We got kicked off because of this. LET'S SUE... GOLD DIGGERS
Puhdiddle
 
Greg
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 2:31 am

I'm sure that if it were any of you that were denied boarding...or taken off an aircraft, you'd have the same reaction. We can just hope that some meaningful legislation may result from such a suit.

Man, BR715, you are one bitter kid!
 
donder10
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 3:08 am

Greg,
it says on the ticket that you can be removed from the plane without a reason.
 
Squigee
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 3:19 am

It's the same issue with the fat lady who tried to sue Air Canada because her butt wouldn't fit in only one seat. It comes down to one factor:

Aircraft are not public property, nor are they government property. The airlines have a right to allow or disallow boarding to anyone they want to. If someone is suspected of being drunk, too bad. If you can't safely occupy one seat because you spill over into two, too bad. If the airlines were concerned because you and a group of guys look very similar to ones who hijacked their aircraft and killed thousands of people, too bad.

This is life post Sept.11. If you don't like it, complain to Osama.
Someday, we'll look back at this, laugh nervously, and then change the subject.
 
exPratt
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 3:44 am

They should consolidate the cases and have the trial conducted in lower Manhattan. I wonder how much they would get then: $10,000 or 10,000 volts?
 
deltairlines
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlin

Wed Jun 05, 2002 3:55 am

And remember, the captain has the final word on all matters. If they don't want anyone on the flight they're captaining, then they can kick you off for whatever reason. Is it necessarily fair? No. But is life fair? No. I hope this suit (filed by who else but the ACLU...) is thrown out of court or is defeated (which is should).

Jeff
 
flybulldog
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:09 am

In several of these cases, it seems like the passengers were purposely acting strange in order to get kicked off the flight.
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:11 am

ACLU: Airlines Discriminated Against Passengers Who Seemed Middle Eastern

"NEW YORK (AP) -- Lawsuits filed in three states Tuesday accused airlines of discriminating against passengers who looked Middle Eastern and said one man was forced off a flight after a fellow passenger complained about "those brown-skinned men.""

Heres more: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/020604/airlines_discrimination_1.html
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flyingbronco05
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:26 am

ACLU,Law Firm Sue Amer Air, Continental, Northwest, United

"NEW YORK -(Dow Jones)- The American Civil Liberties Union filed five federal lawsuits accusing four airlines of forcing passengers off flights based on the prejudice of employees and passengers."

More at: http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/020604/200206041440000473_1.html

This is getting out of hand. I dont mind lawsuits, but airlines DO HAVE the right to kick you off a flight for NO REASON. Check the back of your tickets next time.
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
Sonic
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:28 am

I hope these people will win the court. I would deal with such airlines very harshly. So you are now saying it is good to disallow Arabs to get in planes? Come on. What if black would be refused to fly because of his skin? Then you all would moan how that or another airline is racist. I think all minorities should be treated the same.
 
Sonic
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:30 am

Yes, airlines do have that right but if some airline would start kicking off blacks I believe it would be dealt very harshly.
 
close2LAX
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:33 am

You know, Blacks didn't level the lower Manhattan. I'd rather have some people feel harassed, then thousands dead. As simple as that. I know it sounds bad, but that's how I feel.
 
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OA412
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:33 am

The ignorance of many in this country post-9/11 has not ceased to amaze me. So now, having dark skin qualifies one as being Middle Eastern. I cannot tell you how many of my Indian friends here in Salt Lake (the sub-continent variety not the native variety) have been discriminated against, have been made to feel unwelcome, have had racial slurs hurled at them, and have been physically assaulted as a result of their dark skin and apparent Middle Eastern origins (which, by the way, is news to both me and them). How stupid are you that you must assume that any dark-skinned person is a Middle Easterner? Even more disturbing is the news I received from one Indian friend that several of her Sikh acquaintances have decided post-9/11 to remove their Turbans, cut their hair and shave their beards all because some ignorant piece of shit might blow their head off for expressing themselves religiously.

Of particular concern is our new found belief that all Middle Easterners are terrorists/terrorists in the making until they prove otherwise. I don't care who you are, I don't care where you live or where you were during the attacks, statements such as the one above are no better than stating that all Asians look alike, that Jews are money-hungry, penny pinchers, and that African Americans are drug-dealing criminals. Whether we want to admit it or not, our treatment of Middle Easterners, be they Arab or otherwise, has been inherently racist both pre and post-9/11. While we, as a society, have attempted to break down and discredit other pervasive stereotypes we have been more than willing to assume that all Middle Eastern men are terrorists. I shudder to think where we are going with this.

I, for one, say bring on the lawsuits! Of course, we have to protect against any other attack but I refuse to allow us to once again degenerate in a racist hell hole under the guise of national security.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
Sonic
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:40 am

Oh yes Close2lax, every Arab, Indian, Kazakh, Azeri, Georgian, ect. are terrorists.

By the way, you are so naive. You think by not letting some people enter you will stop terror? Come on, neither Khomeini, neither Hussein, neither Bin Laden aren't that stupid. Do you think there are no white, Asian or black people who would do a terror act? Maybe thousands there are. Remember John "Jihad" Walker. Also, there are any poor people who would do that if money would be paid to their families.

You could ban all middle easterns from flying and terror still would have the same chance to happen. By the way, I don't believe terror via aviation will happen again at all (at least not sep 11 size). You know what? Sunking jhuge cruise liner might have the same casualties. Or destroying oil rig in Mexican gulf. Or contaminating water system. There are thousand ways. By discrimination you'll reach nothing, just more hate towards you.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:42 am

I spent 17 hours in interrogation with DOJ personnel last month and was repeatedly told that "people like you" had caused the trouble with America. Of course, I am from India, Catholic and have been in and out of the US since 1978. If the crack anti-terrorism people can't look beyond skin color succesfully, how can you expect airline personnel to be able to?
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Sonic
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:44 am

Totally agree with OA412. It seems Amercans can't get rid of racism, which is there from times of colonization. First they massacred native Americans, later enslaved blacks and now they are against Arabs. Who will be next target? Hispanic? Asians?
 
ben88
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:51 am

You guys seem to be forgetting that a policy on a ticket cannot supercede your rights. I refer you to title 1 of the civil rights act of 1991.


PROHIBITION AGAINST ALL RACIAL DISCRIMINATION IN THE MAKING
AND ENFORCEMENT OF CONTRACTS

SEC. 101

Section 1977 of the Revised Statutes (42 U.S.C. 1981) is amended-

(1) by inserting "(a)" before "All persons
within"; and

(2) by adding at the end the following new subsections:

"(b) For purposes of this section, the term 'make and enforce
contracts' includes the making, performance, modification, and termination
of contracts, and the enjoyment of all benefits, privileges, terms, and
conditions of the contractual relationship.

"(c) The rights protected by this section are protected
against impairment by nongovernmental discrimination and impairment under
color of State law."


So this situation would be the example of a modification (or termination) of a contract based soley on race. As you can see in section "c" we are also protected against nongovermental discrimination, which proves Squigee's post null and void. Not to mention the fact that most airlines are goverment contractors which obligates them to respect an even stricter level of non-discrimination laws.
 
Greg
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:06 am

Airlines can NOT remove you from an aircraft 'for ANY reason'--they have to have a reason---one in which the person or other passengers are in danger (this includes safety concerns as well)..or an implide threat on the crew, passengers, or the safe operation of the aircraft has been made.

The pilot is in command-that is not in dispute- but in accordance with his companies policies--state law, if applicable, and federal law where applicable. He is not above the Constitution.

The fact that it states your removal for any reason is permissble by your contract of carriage is nonsense. That it obligitory boiler plate. Much the same way your parking ticket says they are not responsible if the garage collapses and destroys your car.

I am have not read the brief concerning the case. The fact that the CLU is involved is to me, highly suspect so I will reserve judgement on this specific incident.

I am concerned that most the people on here immediately defend air carriers for all their actions..and that all plaintiff are in some way seeking money.

Please..no responses from students or anyone under 20...it is meaningless.
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:17 am

Considering my mom is a FA on American for 12 years now and my dad is a 777 pilot for AA and has been flying with the airlines since he was just out of college, I think i have great knowledge of what is and isn't allowed on planes and what the rule is for kicking people off the airplane. Myself, I am an instrument certified pilot for king airs and often fly with my dad. So I, along with others, have the right to voice our opinions.
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
N79969
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:28 am

I think there have been some incidents of egregious discrimination that must be addressed and the victims should bring suit. The Air Carrier Access Act of 1986 prohibits discrimination based on race and disability. In the long run, these suits But I also share the scepticism of many of you since the ACLU is involved. They play for the wrong team more than half of the time.

I don't think it's fair to say Moslems invented terrorism...That is not correct at many different levels. I think it was one of things that sprang up in multiple places around the world.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:22 am

Shlomoz said it best in his post. It is worth reading twice.

Maybe he is not 100% historically correct when writing "It was Moslems who invented terrorism." But otherwise, sure they were good learners.

I remember that my king (Christian II, King of Denmark) was responsible for the Stockholm Bloodbath in 1534 where 86 good men were massacred. And I doubt that he needed any foreign help for that deed.

The rest of Shlomoz's post is right on the spot.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Greg
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:25 am

Flyingbronco...my father is a retired VP for a large movie studio....does that mean I know to make a movie? Of course not.

Just because daddy says he can kick anybody off the airplane does not make it so, does not make it right, and it surely does not make it legal. The court will prove that.

The ACLU is a varied group. They do serve their purpose to protect the Constitution--sometimes to the extreme. I can't say I agree with many of their decisions, but that is a price of freedom as well.

You, of course are entitled to your opinion. I'll retract my statement. At times, I get weary of students acting like they have any 'real world' knowledge--when in fact, they don't.
 
777236ER
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:27 am

But Asians, Blacks, Jews and Sikhs don't hijack civilian aircraft for the purpose of destroying landmarks and murdering innocent people in the name of religion!

And a few dozen muslims who do condem a whole race?!

Have to rememer it was CHRISTIANS who were murderous assholes during the crusades. Should we be weary of them too? After all we all know about hereditary.... Insane
Your bone's got a little machine
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:31 am

How many years ago were the crusades?


Not to mention look at all the suicide bombers and threats we are getting.... they have a perfect right to boot them off. All the recent bombings and such for the past 20 years (minus timothy mcveigh) have been from 20-40 year old Muslim men. This is all perfectly logical.
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OA412
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:37 am

But Asians, Blacks, Jews and Sikhs don't hijack civilian aircraft for the purpose of destroying landmarks and murdering innocent people in the name of religion!

That was never my point. My point is that racism, is racism, is racism. A group of 19 Muslims hijacked four aircraft and flew them into the Pentagon and the WTC. Now, IIRC there is something like 100 million in the world and some 100 million Middle Easterners give or take. I will be damned if I am going to assume that these 19 are representative of every last Middle Eastern/Muslim person on earth. Besides, five of the people thrown off the flights weren't even Muslim or Middle Eastern but were dark skinned. That is a clear indication of racism to me.

It was Moslems who invented terrorism.

The hell they did. Terrorism is pretty much as old as civilization itself. It was used in antiquity as much as it is used today. This was years before the idea of Islam had even been invented. Muslims have no monopoly on terrorist acts occuring in the world today. While a small percentage, i.e. not all, are certainly guilty of committing terrorist acts, several non-Muslim countries are guilty of committing terrorist acts against their civilian populations as well.

Please..no responses from students or anyone under 20...it is meaningless.

Although your comment about the under-20s is understanble, I must ask why it is meaningless for students to respond to this topic? As a student myself, I take great offense to this statement. Although I do not know your reasoning behind this I will get on my soapbox again and talk about one other thing that has been bothering me in this post-9/11 world of ours. Am I the only one who is even a little worried at our new found hatred of and revulsion with intellectuals and academics in this country. The fact that anyone has even suggested that University professors and students should be censured for their opinions post-9/11 is inherently disgusting to me. The fact that the American Council of Trustees and Alumni (of which Lynne Cheney is a member) has the unmitigated gall to suggest that professors and students do not have a right to critices GWB and his actions is IMHO highly un-patriotic. Before Lynne and her lackeys begin spouting off such nonsense they should perhaps take a look at the good old constitution. Whether they like it or not public universities, as government funded institutions, must protect the constitutional rights of their students and staff. This means that we have ever right under the CONSTITUTION to mouth off about Dubya's policies if we feel that they are wrong. Whether the ACTA wishes to admit it or not, it is their beliefs that are unpatriotic and Anti-American.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
shlomoz
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:55 am

But Asians, Blacks, Jews and Sikhs don't hijack civilian aircraft for the purpose of destroying landmarks and murdering innocent people in the name of religion!

That was never my point. My point is that racism, is racism, is racism. . . . . .

YOU missed the point, my friend, and that point is . . . . racial profiling of "Middle Easterners" is a perfectly legitimate security tool under current circumstances.

. . . . . I will be damned if I am going to assume that these 19 are representative of every last Middle Eastern/Muslim person on earth. . . . .

OK. Be damned. Hope your next flight is safe and uneventful!

It was Moslems who invented terrorism.

The hell they did. Terrorism is pretty much as old as civilization itself. It was used in antiquity as much as it is used today. This was years before the idea of Islam had even been invented. Muslims have no monopoly on terrorist acts occuring in the world today.

As I wrote earlier - DENIAL.
 
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OA412
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:57 am

And if they really, truly, yearn for the liberties and values that America espouses, then let them go and reform their societies, throw out their despotic rulers and dictators (not one Arab country - NOT ONE - is governed democratically) and establish free and open regimes (and the USA will happily provide all the funding for their revolutions), and grab hold of their religion back from their lunatic, blood-thirsty, world-conquerer-wannabee religious leader-kooks.

I forgot to respond to the above assertion. The USA (and several other Western Countries for that matter) have no intention of seeing the creation of viable and stable democratic regimes in the region. Nor, is the US interested in financing democratic revolutions in Arab countires. Had it wanted to do so, it would have done this many, many years ago. Democratically elected leaders do not kowtow to big oil. They do not sell the livelihood of their populations short so that the West may purchase gas for, IIRC, $18 a barrel. Democratically elected leaders do what is best for their countries. This will mean sharply increasing the price of oil in order to help finance the construction of badly needed infrastructure and the setting up of a true education system.

I seem to remember a certain democratically elected Iranian leader by the name of Mossadeq who had the "nerve" to nationalize the oil fields and put the needs of his people ahead of the needs of the West. What was the American response. Why, it was to have the CIA overthrow him in 1953 and to install the brutal, despotic, and outright dictatorial Shah in his place. The idea that the US is interested in seeing the installation of democracies in the Middle East is beyond laughable.

The funniest thing I hear over and over again is that we, the West, liberated Kuwait from Iraq. Yeah, as if Kuwait is some sort of haven of liberty and democracy in the Middle East. We could have demanded that Kuwait revert to democracy but we did not. Why? Oil!

A further fallacy that I hear perpetuated over and over again is this idea that Middle Eastern people are somehow complacent and actually enjoy living under this brutal dictatorial regimes. You find me one Saudi not affiliated in some way with the royal family who is actually happy with the regime and I will eat dirt.

Finally, the Muslim religion is not being held hostage by a lunatic fringe. Certainly there are certain elements withing the Muslim world who are lunatics. However, this myth of Muslims being held hostage by a bunch of extremists is absolute BS and is very much the product of the Western media. The vast majority of Muslims in this world are peaceful, law abiding citizens who would never dream of committing the atrocious acts perpetrated against our country by some of their co-religionists. You simply cannot lump every last Muslim in with the lunatic fringe.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
777236ER
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 7:02 am

Not to mention look at all the suicide bombers and threats we are getting.... they have a perfect right to boot them off. All the recent bombings and such for the past 20 years (minus timothy mcveigh) have been from 20-40 year old Muslim men. This is all perfectly logical.

Yes, the IRA and ETA are nobody, are they?

You have NO right to boot them off! It's against your own laws!
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Mirabilis
Posts: 63
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 8:10 am

Schlomoz: Your lack of knowledge of Islam or Muslims would be amusing were your comments not so plainly rooted in ignorance and racism. To your assertion that Muslims "invented" terrorism, I would remind you (as others here have done) that violence in the name of religious ideals is as old as civilization itself.

Moreover, as you seem to believe that terrorism lies within the exclusive province of people of Arab descent, I would remind you that prior to September 11th the deadliest terrorist attack on US soil was carried out by a caucasian, male, US citizen -- Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City. If you support racial profiling, you should consider the implications of racially profiling caucasian males of American descent.

In addition, with respect to this lawsuit, it is absolutely incorrect as a matter of law to suggest that an airline has an inherent right to remove anyone from an aircraft. As Ben88 and others most correctly pointed out, federal law wholly prohibits racial discrimination, among other things, in the making and enforcement of contracts. In addition to federal law, the law of each state in this country similarly prohibits racial discrimination under circumstances applicable to this case. If the plaintiffs in the suit mentioned above can establish that they were removed from an airline because of their race, then they will (and should) prevail in their lawsuit.

OA412: Thank you for your thoughtful postings on this subject. I hope that your sense of rationality and justice will rub off on the other less insightful members of this forum.

 
Greg
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 8:32 am

We can all agree this will remain an interesting case. I, for one, hope it makes it to trial--although the odds are slim.

I'll affirm my belief that the ACLU...although controversial, is essential to preserve our civil liberties on some level. And no, I don't support most their causes....just their right to do so.

Profiling is an important tool as some of you have brought up (in a not-so-nice manner). But the profiling must be done to such a specific level as to benefit security. I do not think the condemnation of an entire ethnic group is by any means the answer. It's interesting to note that many of you have mentioned Muslim at the trait that needs to be scrutinized--which is not an ethnic group at all. I know plenty of co-workers that are Asian, Black, Middle Eastern, and White who are all Muslim.

Give up on trying to figure out who invented terrorism. It's like original sin--it happened long ago to people we'll never know.

OA412...if you read further you'll that I retracted my previous statement regarding students.
 
Mirabilis
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 8:41 am

To the extent profiling takes place, it must take place based on racially-neutral criteria (e.g., passengers paying for a one-way ticket in cash), NOT because a passenger "appears" to be of "Middle-Eastern" descent (whatever that means, and assuming that a security screener is perceptive enough to distinguish between someone who is Arab and someone who is Greek, Italian, Brazilian, Portuguese, African-American, or some combination thereof (which is doubtful)).

Greg also brings up the very valid point that a muslim observer can be of any racial background, so any attempt to profile based on muslim affiliation is doubly odious because it is at the same time overbroad and underinclusive.

 
hamad
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 8:53 am

mirabilis, dont blame Shlomoz on his comments against islam and muslims. like if his government dont destroy the houses of palestinians every day and then claim that arabic peopole are the ones who invented terrorism! ROFL
PHX - i miss spotting
 
srbmod
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlin

Wed Jun 05, 2002 8:57 am

Those hypocrites at the ACLU would do anything to keep in the news. If the events of 9/11 had been done by Asian, people wouldn't be assuming that all Asians are terrorists. We here in America are used to seeing the terrorism done by Middle Eastern based Islamic groups, and are usually led to believe that any terrorist act against that U.S. was done by Middle Eastern nations. Other than the Oklahoma City bombing and the bombings that are linked to Eric Robert Rudolph (the bomb @ Centennial Olympic Park during the 1996 Olympics, the two abortion clinic bombings and the gay bar bomb), the terrorist attacks in the U.S. have been done by people Middle Eastern origin. The only one to have been successful was the 1993 WTC bombing, and when the bombs @ Oklahoma City and Centennial Olympic Park happened, it was initally believed to have been the work of Middle Eastern terrorists. It was later determined the real agents involved in these attacks were homegrown white Americans with far-right leanings. Just as many black males has been pulled over for being black and fitting the description of a suspect the police are looking for, those of Middle Eastern ethnicity are finding the same thing happening to them. What it is that the actions of those that share their ethnicity have caused problems that cannot be solved so easily. The ACLU is nothing more than a publicity driven bleeding-heart liberal hypocritical group. They one day sue the KKK for racial acts against minorities, and then turn right around and help the Klan in getting parade routes approved that run through minority neighborhoods. The ACLU doesn't care about the people they claim to protect, they just care about the publicity and the money that it brings. I have about as much respect for the ACLU as I do Osama Bin Laden.
 
wingman
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:01 am

This is a very diffcult issue. Trying to balance the needs of security with unlimited personal freedom is not easy. But the facts speak for themselves. 20 Muslim terrorists, men clearly brainwashed and demented by "fundamentalist radical teachings" willfully and intentionally killed nearly 3000 innocent civilians on 9/11. Some Americans have knee-jerk reactions and label all Muslims as terrorists, which is not right. Yet also disturbing is this lazy, pathetic and appeasing attitude by many non-Americans to somehow find blame with the US itself. That is goddamn joke. Anyone here who thinks Americans are racist hasn't spent a minute touring Europe or living in Asia. There one will find some of the most extremist, albeit not quite so obvious, hatred against "foreigners" I have ever encountered in my life. Just because we address sensitive issues in this country openly and painfully at times doesn't make us more racist than Germans, Sapniards or Koreans. More self-analytical perhaps but not more racist. Someone above also mentioned US racism being rooted in "colonialism". Huh??? Europe and Aisa still hold the undisputed heavyweight gold medal records for colonialism and human slaughter, rape, death, destruction and outright ethic cleansing. The US may be in the Top 5, but you guys are in a different league altogether.

My final opinion is this, if hurting someone's feelings in order to prevent another catastrophe or worse is necessary, then so be it. These people are always free to return to the wonderful and open societies they came from. And mark my words, there are at least 1000 Muslims today actively engaged in the ultimate terrorist dream of unleashing weapons of mass destruction against major US cities. Anyone who has access to direct translations of major Arab papers and news broadcasts can clearly see that this is a dream barely disguised in official state media of countries like Iran, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia (our so-called friends) and others. Many of these countries refuse to enter the 21st century and insist on blocking basic human rights to free speech, choice, womens' rights etc. I'm no Bush fan myself, but this insane terrorism isn't a result of Bush's policies in the ME, it started long long ago and culminated in planning that obviously took place while Bill Clinton was President. Now, can anyone here think of a European, Arab, or Asian statesman that dedicated more time and energy towards building peace between Israel and Palestinians? Don't let these scumbags delude you into thinking this is about Palestine and Israel because it isn't. It's about murdering freaks desperate to squash freedom and perpetuate their own twisted vision of 14th century barbarism. Whether you're American or Euroepan or a goldfish the choice is clear. You don't like living here or you don't like this country, try Saudi or Iran and have lots of fun.
 
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:01 am

Whatever, If I saw some Arab guys acting weird on a plane, I'd go nuts.

I don't live in a vacuum people. There is an Arab Islamic terrorist network trying to destroy my way of life with a history of using planes as weapons many times throughout recent history. I did not ask for this, I do not want it. If I see some Arabs acting suspicious, your damn right I'd either get the hell off the plane or have them booted.

I'd like to live out the rest of my life thank you very much. I have an obligation to protect ME from danger. I have no obligation to Abdul or any other Arab on some plane. period.
 
Guest

RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:08 am

Now people like to get all emotional over this and make it into some race thing.

If Orthodox Jews were hijacking planes and crashing them into building or trying to destroy America and I was on a plane with a few of these guys in their black hats and jackets and they were acting suspiciously, I'd do the same thing, get them the hell out of there, or I'd get off.

Same thing goes if its white middle aged mothers with kids in strollers.

But its not. its not orthodox jews and its not white mothers trying to destroy my country.

Its young male Arabs. So, they will be the ones who I'll be suspicious of. Your damn right.
 
clipper001
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:09 am

It was reported on NPR News and the BBC World News that the men who were removed from the planes were not subjected to any security followup. In the case of the man flying CO to Tampa he was rebooked to Orlando. If this was a case of a security concern, why weren't they rescreened, detained, or some other measure taken? The only thing the airlines did was feed the ignorant, irrational, emotions of a few.

Three of the men aren't even Arab. If all five were, at least there would be some consistency with the idea that "Muslims invented terrorism", "They hate us", etc. One was reported to have some sort of South American decent. Four of the five were U.S. Citizens, the other a permanent legal resident. These do not even fit our "concept" of a terrorist, some are not even from the that side of the globe.

This should not be written off as "this is reality in the Post 9/11 world", or "this is the cost of higher security". If this was a security concern, some sort of follow up should have occurred. None did. We should not allow people to get away with stupid or dangerous actions by cloaking it in, "This is because of 9/11". We need to address the causes of our current situation, not detaining every person who acts suspicious. Everyone looks suspicious at some point. I hang around railroad tracks watching trains or near airports watching planes. It looks suspicious, but I have never derailed a train or tried to blow up a plane.

I applaud the ACLU for taking on this case. This is not about money, but defending the basic rights that America was founded on (whether it is practised correctly is another). If the Nazis want to walk right through Skokie, IL; they should have every right. It is not like this is defending the right to have a hard-core porn site, or make racist comments. It is defending the ability to board a plane and not be subjected to removal because some lady or jittery pilot has a premonition that the guy with dark skin is going to do something.

Clipper001
Not a pilot, 20, and a student.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:11 am

If I see some Arabs acting suspicious, your damn right I'd either get the hell off the plane or have them booted.

The point here is the definition of "acting suspicious". If probably cause, or even reasonable suspicion, exists outside of the person's ethnicity that the person is engaged in suspicious activity, then by all means consider the person's ethnicity as grounds for additional scrutiny.

However, in most cases, such as some that I have personally been a victim of, the suspicion exists solely because of ethnicity. That is discriminatory under civil rights laws of the United States, and THAT is what this lawsuit is seeking to address.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
ben88
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:15 am

No one is addressing my post. It is illegal to kick someone off of a plane solely based on their race. That's pretty much it.
 
GD727
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:38 am

Oh man, I can not stand this liberal bullsh*t! The fact remains that Arabs are much more likley than any other race, to commit terrorist acts. I mean, the Arabs have commited nearly every act of terrorism on the US for the last 30 years! I don't even think it is racist, it is just that a particular group of people commit more terrorist acts and we must be careful! Like I said a million times before WE CAN NOT RISK ANOTHER 9/11 TO ACHIEVE POLITICAL CORECTNESS!!!

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
david b.
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:47 am

yes GD and according to the FBI a serial killer or a person who commits a hate crime is a white male between the age of 20 and 40. Sure for you profiling every white male between age 20-40 would be too liberal too wouldn't it.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
fly_emirates
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:34 am

the main purpose of this post is about the act of the airlines against some people by taking them off the planes after passing security and getting searched.

The ticket says: "The airline reserves the right of refuse the carriage of any passenger" now it doesnt mean that because this is on the ticket, i can go to any passenger on my cabin and say "hey sir, i dont want you on the plane becase the back of your ticket says so" on Emirates airlines, we denied the boarding of a passenger who fainted when he go onboard, we weren't ready to assume responsibility shall some thing happen to him on flight.

I wouldn't agree if they sued the security screeners, because hell, i guess people in USA are trying to improve security there, yet, i do disagree of pulling them off the plane. but not of all the cases.

I totally agree with the captain on the American Airlines, because of the hassle that happen and for the guy being armed. but i dont disagre with the delta or the northwest incidents were in the first the captain wasnt comfortable just because that guy was middleastern, and the second just because of bunch or paraniod people didnt want them on the plane.

so yes to racial profiling during security screening, but once that is done, i dont think we should racially profile no more once they get on the plane after going through the named "improved security"
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:50 am

I agree w/ the aviation expert from El Al who said:

"El Al looks for terrorists, US airlines look for weapons."

We should be profiling. I don't care if you are Middle Eastern and you take offence. Take offence at the Middle Eastern Terrorist who are commitng crimes in your name.

When a nun tries to fly a jet into the WTC then we will profile Catholics. But that hasn't happened yet. So lets stop looking for every kind of weapon and start looking for terrorists. Passengers will be happy, airlines will be happy. The only ones unhappy will be terrorists and civil liberarians.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:08 pm

I don't care if you are Middle Eastern and you take offence. Take offence at the Middle Eastern Terrorist who are commitng crimes in your name.

The problem, of course, is that these people WERE NOT Middle Eastern.

And another problem is that this is contrary to every airline policy out there. If they want to do it, change their policy. But don't say "we dont profile" and then turn around and do it anyway. That is illegal.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
b757300
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:11 pm

I hate to say this, there probably won't be very many juries that are going to sympathetic to these stupid lawsuits. If it hadn't been 19 Arab men who used UNITED STATES' airliners as kamikaze cruise missiles, maybe then they would have a case. Until you can prove that Muslim Arabs were not responsible for Sept. 11th, then this case belongs in the nearest dumpster.

BTW, it isn't just Arab & darker skinned people who are harassed, threatened, and mistreated by airline and airport personnel. I'm a white male, I don't have anything weird like body piercings, tattoos, etc., and yet I had an M-16 pulled on me and was ruffed up by the national guardsman & airport security official @ my local airport because I was engaging in "terrorist activity". They held me for 1/2 an hour while they made all kinds of threats like turning me over to the FBI and sending me to federal prison for again, "terrorist activity". All I was doing was taking pictures of an American Eagle Saab340B taxing for take off.

While I'm sure it would be more likely for an Arab or Arab looking person to be treated inappropriately, it can and has happened to other people who do not fit the physical profile of a terrorist. I hate to say this, but until Muslim Arabs stop being one of if not the main source of Global terrorism, people will always feel a bit of mistrust toward Arabs @ airports and on aircraft.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
BA
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:20 pm

UALPHLCS,

Tell me, why should the entire Arab population suffer because of a few lunatics? Tell me, why? Why punish the entire Arab population because of a few? What happened to equality? If you were an Arab, you wouldn't be saying that Arabs should be profiled.

If your best friend was an Arab, you wouldn't say that he should be profiled, would you?

It's as simple as that my friend. Everyone going through security should be treated exactly the same, everyone should be searched thoroughly, and the security personnel should take the same time on one person as on everyone whether they are white, black, yellow, or even pink, I don't care.

It should all be the same, strict, tough, thorough security for everyone no matter who they are, what color they are, or what ethnic background they are.

Lines will be a little bit longer, but oh well. People who fly will just have to wait in long lines.

The best example of security that the US should follow, is security in Middle Eastern airports. It's amazing how strict and tough they are about security no matter who you are whether you are a white blondy, or a Black, or Asian. They are strict and tough, and search you for a longtime. Airports such as Jeddah Abdul Azziz Int'l, and Riyadh King Khaled Int'l are excelent examples of tough, strict security.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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OA412
Crew
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:10 pm

OA412...if you read further you'll that I retracted my previous statement regarding students.

Yes, Greg I just saw that you did retract your statement. Either it was posted while I was replying to the thread or I just missed it. Either way, please accept my humblest apologies for my misrepresentation of your stance.

Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
NWA742
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:19 pm

I can't believe some of you.

What would you expect the US to do after 9/11? Over 3,000 of our innocent civilians were murdered by Arab terrorists, not black, not hispanic, or blue, orange, purple, and red. First, get that straight.

Airline employees have every right to suspect groups of Arab men, especially after 9/11. I believe they should have this right. Terrorism from Arabs has become the biggest threat to our security in America, and we are taking some viscious precautions, well good for us then!

If these morons who are sueing our airlines think they've been racially discriminated against, then by all means, go to your homeland terrorist-breeding center and whine to your 1000s of terrorists there.

I am getting my hours up to become an airline pilot someday, and if I get hired, I will use these rights for profiling. If anything were to seem suspicious on my aircraft, I wouldn't hesitate to have them taken off immediately.

Some of you here need to face the reality of this situation, America will consider Arabs more suspicious than anyone else nowadays, so get over it, and quit whining, crying, and argueing about it.

Go ahead, call me a racist scumbag.........ummmm........"Ouch."



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Post-Sept.11 Discrimination Suits Hit 4 Airlines

Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:32 pm

To me an airline's carriage of contract is like an apartment lease, in a way. Regarding the return of a security deposit, here is what the Austin Tenant's Council has to say about the matter:

"Some leases state that the tenant "forfeits", or loses, the security deposit if the lease is breached or broken. Just because something is written in a lease does not mean that it is enforceable under Texas property law.

It seems to me that the same principal would apply to an airline's contract of carriage. Just because an airline states that they have the right to deny boarding to anyone for any reason doesn't mean that policy is enforceable in a court of law.

Back to apartment leases for a moment, my lease states that the apartment complex will not be responsible for a tenant's personal belongings if they are destroyed by fire and they recommend renter's insurance. However, two and a half years ago, we did have a fire in our complex and it was caused by the apartment complex's maintainence people. (They stored mattresss, paint, paint thinner, oily rags, etc. in a downstairs unit which caused a fire and destroyed 8 units.) In that case, the apartment complex was liable for the damages, due to their negligence, even though it said in the lease that they would not be.

I don't have a problem with the concept of racial profiling as far as security searches go. However, if the passenger doesn't have anything in his/her carry-on that could be considered a weapon, is not drunk or disorderly, is medically fit to travel, and has legally purchased a ticket, then he or she should not be pulled off the plane just because the captain thinks they might be a threat. The airline would have to show just cause for removing someone from the plane and name/skin color/race is NOTjust cause.

I've seen people on other threads say "Flying is a privelege, not a right." I disagree. If I've followed the rules and haven't broken any laws, am medically fit to fly, don't pose a threat to my fellow passengers. and my tax dollars are helping to bail out the airline industry then I damn sure do have the right to be transported to my destination.

I hope the plaintiffs win in this case.

LoneStarMike