United Airline
Topic Author
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Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 6:45 pm

Hey guys!

Air New Zealand used to operate a mixture fleet of B 767-300ER and B 747-200 into Hong Kong. Currently, they fly the B 767-300ER from AKL to HKG. And they do fly the B 747-400 into HKG occasionally.

I understand that HKG-AKL will go daily again very soon. And there is an increase in traffic for service between HKG and AKL.

Should Air New Zealand deploy the B 747-400 into HKG? Instead of their B 767-300ERs?

They have obtained their Flight Rights between HKG and LHR. And this is definitely on the cards. If they are to start service between HKG and LHR, we will definitely see B 747-400s flying for this route. By deploying the B 744 into HKG, you can actually get things ready for HKG-LHR.

Commments?
 
lutfi
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:05 pm

No. They shouldn't.
 
United Airline
Topic Author
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:14 pm

Why not?

Maybe they can do it with a mixture of B 747-400s, as well as B 767-300ERs.

HKG-AKL will go daily soon.......  Smile

I understand that they do deploy B 744s into Japan (Correct me if I am wrong)
 
hkg82
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 8:10 pm

Are there any HKG-CHC flights? Is there a lot of demand between the two cities?

Obviously NZ will deploy the 744 on HKG-LHR. When are they going to start HKG-LHR?

Hkg82.
 
United Airline
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 8:23 pm

Unfortunately, Air New Zealand does not fly between HKG and CHC. However, I do see a demand for this route. Perhaps with a B 767-300ER.

But I doubt they will do it daily......

As for HKG-LHR, I do see them starting this route within one or two years. They have already obtained their flight rights. However, they should first upgrade their B 747-400s by installing PTVs, New Business Class/First Class Cabins etc etc.

Comments?
 
The Coachman
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 8:55 pm

Comments?

Ha. No they shouldn't if they can't fill them.

Right now, fixing up their other problems is first and foremost.

Why am I bothering to answer this thread...it's about the 3000th time this has been posted...
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
United Airline
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:10 pm

This is my FIRST post.

If you don't want to answer my posts, then you don't have to. I am sure there are many members who are willing to answer my questions.

 Smile
 
Oz777
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:32 pm

United

Forget it:

The capacity on the route is controlled under the Route service agreement between HongKong and New Zealand. Briefly that states the number of seats that may be offered each week between the city pairs. So if the agreement states 3000 seats per week, split 50/50, then Air NZ can only offer 7 767's or 3 747's a week. Obviously from the point of view that frequency beats capacity, all that ANZ can SELL is 767 loads, so why would you fly half empty 747s to Hong Kong.

And I do not know how many times you have been told "United", but ANZ needs to firmly establish the routes it currently flies, before wandering off on fanciful "what-if's". The loads and the yields are nowhere near adequate for a HKG-LHR service operated by ANZ when they fly via LAX to LHR already (and LAX is a complexing point for them from SYD, HNL, NAN, AKL and PPT). The marginal traffic offering LHR-HKG (dest AKL) ANZ can through ticket on any IATA carrier and earn money for just selling the ticket.

You have been told this many times - why do you keep asking the same question?

IF THE TRAFFIC IS NOT OFFERING, WHY SHOULD YOU FLY THERE. Think about it.

Oz777
 
donder10
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:21 pm

No wonder there is a forum on airwhiners.net called 'Stupid Questions from Hong Kong member'!There is excess capacity in the market as it is!
 
United Airline
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:42 pm

What makes you think it is stupid to fly a B 744 into HKG? Do you have the figures for this route? Back all your opinions with facts before being rude.

Morgan Stanley Dean Witter did a study sometime ago. And they do believe that there is a market for Air New Zealand for HKG-LHR. You not only connect people from New Zealand to LHR but also people from HKG. They actually suggested that this route COULD be profitable. If not, they wouldn't have obtained flight rights between HKG and LHR.

They can actually go RTW with this route. Can't they?

Anyway, time will tell. But I do believe that they will start service between HKG and LHR within 2 or 3 years. Rumours have been floating around within Air New Zealand here in Hong kong!

One more thing, can't Air New Zealand connect passengers from Australia to HKG via AKL?
 
Oz777
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:37 am

Yeah right!!

People are going to fly further away from Australia to get to Hong Kong. The nearest AKL is to Australia is three hours, so you are going to add that time to an 8 hour flight. Look at an Atlas.

You talk about facts!! and then you state there are rumours going around the office.

The route HKG-LHR is NOT going to be profitable for ANZ solely on the basis of 5th Freedom traffic rights. And IF Morgan Stanley did a study, don't you think it would have been confidential for ANZ.

And ONCE again, ANZ have had the rights HKG-UK since DC-8 days - in fact BEFORE they had LAX-LHR rights. So it has nothing to do with the re-negotiation of the Air Services agreement over 12 months ago. In fact I very clearly remember explaining IN THIS FORUM, why the rights had been re-negotiated, and why they are held.

In the event that ANZ is unable to fly LAX- UK/Europe, ANZ can still service the destination traffic. Remember, NZ is not on the greatest terms with the US - no nuclear ships and ANZUS is now defunct just as two issues.

Perhaps we should tell the USA that the rumours in the HK office of ANZ point to some possible security issue on the LAX-LHR sector and ANZ is going to switch all that LAX hub traffic via HK. The FBI will love that one.

Oz777
 
Guest

RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 4:25 am

If you want ANZ to fly B744 daily on AKL-HKG, why don't you ask CX to upgrade their daily A340 to daily B744?

Although this route is high demand, but the demand is not high all-year round to support a daily 744. Same goes with CX.
 
donder10
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 9:31 am

Is the yield there for CX?If they can't fill a 744 now,NZ using a 744 would screw yields up
 
The Coachman
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 10:53 am

The yields are probably there Donder, but CX wants the cargo capacity of the A340.

Oz777, LOL  Smile Very funny!

Can somebody please dig up the history of United Airline and tell us how many times this has been posted as a topic?

My 3000 times may be exaggerated, but probably not by much.

United,

RTW nowadays is a triviality. It's no longer such a big deal as it was. With crewing issues etc., it's one of the most expensive routes to fly and with global alliances having been set up, there IS JUST NO POINT.

What makes Morgan Stanley so authoritative? Name dropping doesn't help. You can provide the details of the study then I guess. Oops, it must be confidential...then why cite a confidential source...blah.



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Marara
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 10:58 am

Okay Guys,

Who gave this thread three stars ????
I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
 
United Airline
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:01 pm

NZ still hold rights between HKG and LHR. That's for sure.

People in Morgan Stanley certainly know more than many people here. Analysts, FAs etc...... They make a lot of money.  Smile

Morgan Stanley, Merill Lynch, Goldman Sachs are the big three......  Smile
 
Guest

RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:49 pm

Actually I'm making my own version of ANZ 2002 summer timetable.

And I decided that 772 is flying AKL-HKG-LHR.  Big grin
 
United Airline
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 1:09 pm

Air NZ is interested in the B 777-200ER.

The B 772ER does make sense..... However, HKG-LHR will likely be a B 744.

E-mail me for further discussion.
 
The Coachman
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 2:57 pm

Do the words degeneration make any sense to any of you?

Analysts make mistakes all the time...they're not 100% correct.

Man...772's...what next?? ANZ will get A380's?

....
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
tullamarine
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 3:47 pm

Yes Coachman I think they will get A380s, particularly as they seek to expand tourism between CHC and Tasmania. They may also permanently lease an Antonov 225 to fulfill their freight requirements for Hoki export to Nepal. Once they've completed this, their finances will have improved sufficiently to invest in a number of 772s for daily services between CHC, AKL, WLG and HKG. LOL
717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,310,320/1,332/3,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,SF3,AT
 
United Airline
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 4:12 pm

Yes they are interested in the B 777-200ER. I am sure most people are aware of this.  Smile

The B 777-200ER makes more sense than the A 380........ Especially when they need to replace their B 762s.

Someone who holds a CFA is definitely more trustworthy..... If Analysts are no where useful, then we don't need them. Why do companies like AOL rely so much on Analysts from MSDW?

Hey does that mean that you never make mistake? And you are always right in every aspect?
 
rmm
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 4:28 pm

I heard the re-launched Ansett International (Mark 6) will do the HKG-LHR run for AirNZ.

Why am I even taking the bait ???

Rmm
 
NZ767
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 4:36 pm

Yep! Just like Compass (Mark III) will start up and do Aussie domestic!  Smile
 
United Airline
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 4:36 pm

LOL

 Smile

But anyway, AN International DID plan to fly between HKG and FRA before its demise.
 
aussie_
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 5:19 pm

United Airline:

I don't often get agro like this, but go back to Kindergarten, United Airline.

I don't question your enthusiasm but posting utter rubbish just because it is on your wish-list isn't the way to go. The reason these forums thrive is that people hope to pick up real information here and discuss real issues.

I was a big Ansett fan, and I'm glad to see you liked it as much as you do. However, Ansett is dead, gone, buried, kaputt - give it all a break.

You would learn a lot more by reading the posts of others here rather than posting your own nonsense.

No offence meant... but can't you read the signs? How many people have given you hints about what I am daring to say openly?
 
United Airline
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 5:32 pm

You should be the one to go back to Kindergarten. First of all, my posts are rated highly. Higher than your's I guess. One more thing, I have many respected users.

I am talking about AIR NEW ZEALAND, NOT ANSETT. Open your eyes!  Smile
 
aussie_
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 7:01 pm

The question is who gives your posts star ratings?

On the rare occasion I do start a post, I don't put my own ratings on it.
 
hkg82
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 7:08 pm

What aircraft did AN operate to HKG & from which cities in Australia did they fly to HKG from? MEL & SYD?

I wasn't aware that AN managed to get the rights from the AA to do HKG-FRA!! Were they really close to starting HKG-FRA?

Hkg82.
 
Skystar
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 8:40 pm

AN operated the 747-400 & 767-300 to HKG from SYD (744/763) & MEL (763). On a rare occasion you'd have a 762ER do the HKG run.

AN getting rights to do HKG-FRA is news to me, in fact I never recall anyone in the Ansett Air New Zealand Group intending to fly that route.

Cheers,

Justin
 
Oz777
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 10:06 pm

ANI were to fly HKG-FRA. Complete and utter b...s..t. I bet that rumour came from the Hu Flung Dung agency in the Star Ferry ticket office.

Air NZ might be interested in a lot of things - 772s as well, but the practicality is that it does not suit their needs (or pockets) just at the moment.

Think about this: And ask Morgan Stanley to analyse the data.
A 762 holds say 220 pax in a 2 cabin config
A 763 holds say 250 in a 2 cabin config
A 742 holds 410 in a 2 cabin config.
A 772 holds say 360 in a 2 cabin config

So you take a four times a week 742 frequency (max 1650 seats) out of the timetable and you put on a 7 times a week 763 for a max 1750 seat capability. Given that your 1650 seats RPK's have shrunk because of Sept 11 etc by 20%, so effectively you really only need about 1250 seats on a weekly basis.

But TA DA!!!!! United is going to throw 772's on the route with a majical 360 seat 2 cabin config.

Lets forget about the costs of ANOTHER aircraft type in the fleet (engineering, crew qualification, higher lease costs, operating and handling etc) but in a route that requires 1250 seats weekly you want to throw in 2500 odd. Yep. A 772 is sure profitable at a 50% load factor.

That is precisely the scenario you are suggesting. Even if you outlawed the contraceptive pill tomorrow, the increase in passengers on that route will still take 9 months to fill the seats.

No Air NZ needs to make a profit before then. They are on the right track now. Increase frequency, but keep the ASK's at a level that will allow modest growth on the route. And don't fly past Hong Kong, cause (1) kiwis can't really fly, and (2) they would get lost.

As to your respected list United, I can understand that. For pure simple entertainment (simple), I also watched the Marx brothers and the Keystone Kops. They were good for a laugh, and I respected that. Your in good company.

Oz777
 
rmm
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 07, 2002 11:56 pm

Oz777

Not even cold hard facts appear to have any bearing on this guys train of thought.
He'll just come up with another one - should AirNZ use a 737-300 on HKG-LHR

Rmm
 
Guest

RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sat Jun 08, 2002 12:25 am

This is my FIRST post.

It's not the FIRST post, similar question just goes on and on.

You're just changing the word "will" to "should".

However, HKG-LHR will likely be a B 744
You're just answering the question on your own.

As for the ratings, someone is giving you the "sarcastic" rating, not the real one. It's the rating of the level of this "over-and-over question" post. And for the Expected User thing, half of them add you just for entertainment, trying to make you look so. But it seems like your question doesn't makes you look good.

The Coachman:

ANZ is looking at the 777s for a long time. ANZ won't be stupid to buy the aircraft that they don't need, and larger than 744.

Oz777:

I'm suspecting that NZ's 777 won't seat more than 310. Cause they might be in 3-class configuration. Do you think so?
 
hkg82
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sat Jun 08, 2002 12:29 am

Thanks for the info Skystar! I knew that AN operated the 744 to HKG from SYD but didn't know if they also operated other aircraft & whether they flew from other cities in Australia besides SYD. Thanks again.

United Airline:
Where did you get the info about AN starting HKG-FRA? I didn't hear anything about that so I thought that I simply missed the news item but others appear to be doubting your claim!

Hkg82.
 
Marco
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sat Jun 08, 2002 1:00 am

United Airline:

No they shouldn't. If they really needed to, then they would have done so. A daily B763 is more than enough. HKG-AKL isn't LHR-JFK.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
United Airline
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:17 am

Jiml1126,

Sources please?

Wow....... This guy must be a really nice guy. At least he rates my posts highly.  Smile I appreciate that.

That does not surprise me at all since I have a whole list of respected users. And I respect them all.


Oz777,

Simply do a search! I am sure someone has posted details about AN once planned to fly between HKG and FRA.


Marco,

True. I now begin to think that the B 763 is more than enough. Perhaps the B 777-200ER might come to a reality (Air NZ is interested in this aircraft)


Hkg82,

AN did plan to fly between HKG and FRA. I remember reading one of the articles posted by someone here on Airliners.net. Please do a search


Regards.
 
Guest

RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sat Jun 08, 2002 6:45 am

What source do you want?

As I recalled, I never see a post regarding AN's HKG-FRA on this forum.
 
Oz777
Posts: 516
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sat Jun 08, 2002 10:04 am

Yes there was a "confirmed" article in this forum that ANI were going to fly to FRA and CDG and FCO and DFW from HKG. It was posted by.....


wait for it........


wait for it........


UNITED !!!! Yeah!!!!

United sorry to burst your bubble, but I can tell you CATEGORICALLY that at NO stage was flying an AN aircraft to FRA ever considered by the executive management of ANI. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. Code share with an existing Star Carrier was a possibility, but never flying their own aircraft.

Can I suggest before asking forum members to search to justify your statements, you do the round work and give us the proof.

Oz777
 
The Coachman
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sat Jun 08, 2002 12:35 pm

Jiml1126,

My post was purely sarcastic. Of course NZ don't need A380's!  Smile I think Tullamarine has hit the mood of most posters here perfectly.

On the other hand, I think that an NZ B777 will only have a capacity of 300 at most in a 3 class, maybe 330 in a 2 class. Depends on how tight you want the Y cabin to be  Smile. Thanks for trying to hammer some sense Oz777, much appreciated.  Smile

Sometimes I really wonder what some people do with their time, fantasizing about RTW routes on B747-400's, daily HKG-LHR service when the airline doesn't even fly to AKL-HKG daily...man...

United Airline, do the words, core markets, profit, costs per seat mile, fare yield, demand, frequency, crewing costs, highly leveraged, 1 billion dollar loss last FY, lack of feed from Australia and uncertain future mean anything to you? Cos if they did you'd see that HKG-LHR is a pipe-dream. And we haven't even started talking about the competition that exists on that route ALREADY...and there's more flights being added, with 3 more per week on CX starting in July!...
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
airnewzealand
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sat Jun 08, 2002 8:34 pm

No offence, I am really stereotyping here, but have the citizens of Hong Kong heard of Sarcasm??
Its like this...He thinks you are telling the truth each time.!! drrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

I must admit, I have been getting a few chuckles out of this post,
and all I ever see is this post regarding Air New Zealand. "Will they fly to LHR from HKG??", And as somebody has already answered...NOT RIGHT NOW!! SIMPLE!!

Untied,
Why do you ask a question, and then when somebody tells you what they think, you say 'no, your wrong', when you are the one that asked the question??

I also see that you answer your own questions!! What is the point in posting?? To see if you can beat Khoa (sorry dude had tog et someone with a high amount of posts) in how many topics you have created??

Cheers
Mike
 
cathay250
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sat Jun 08, 2002 9:22 pm

NoNoNo Desmond is quite an exceptional one in HK. Not all of us is like that.  Smile
 
Guest

RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sun Jun 09, 2002 1:26 am

I'm wondering what's United Airline's next Q.

Let's see:

-Should ANZ get 777s

-Should ANZ get rid of 747s....
 
Marco
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sun Jun 09, 2002 1:52 am

...what about:

Should AirNz start serving peking duck on their flights? Laugh out loud

Just kidding des Big grin
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
United Airline
Topic Author
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sun Jun 09, 2002 2:33 am

Marco,

I am sure they should...... That would be cool!  Smile


Jiml1126,

Yes to the First Q. But not the Second one. If Air NZ wants to get rid of their entire B 747 fleet, they wouldn't have renewed the lease for ZK-SUH.  Smile


Cathay250,

Maybe...... You are right.  Smile


Regards.
 
kaitakfan
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sun Jun 09, 2002 5:48 am

A simple answer to your question... No they should not.
 
Guest

RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sun Jun 09, 2002 5:54 am

I never say ANZ will get rid of ALL B747-400 fleet. It seems like NZ will trade HALF of the 744 for 772.

 
B-HXB
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sun Jun 09, 2002 6:50 am

What's this about Cathay adding flights from July? I had heard they want to add some earlier ones to enable same-day connections to mainland China, but the time being suggested was late October just in time for the Christmas rush.

Although from 1 July CX are actually cutting capacity on AKL/HKG (in a way) as they say they will deploy the new First and Business Class A340s on the route, which sees some seats (mostly in F and J) lost.
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sun Jun 09, 2002 9:05 am

you're half way correct Jiml1126...
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
The Coachman
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sun Jun 09, 2002 11:27 am

B-HXB, you need to get away from your AKL obsession  Smile. Read my post carefully.

I'm talking about the 3 extra weekly day-time flights (from HKG) CX will offer with A340-300's between HKG-LHR from July.

Sarcasm has gone unnoticed unfortunately for some posters....

And in case some of you don't get it, the 3 extra weekly flights is not sarcasm.

M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
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RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Sun Jun 09, 2002 11:46 am

B-HXB, I think they're just shifting the time slot, not adding frequencies.
 
B-HXB
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Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 12:04 pm

RE: Should Air NZ Deploy B 747-400s For HKG-AKL?

Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:05 pm

Heh, anticipating a change to the AKL schedules... the London news is old hat to me. Besides, it's 4 weekly flights, not 3.

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