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Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 2:38 pm

It is within the 744 range, even with a maximum load. Has there ever been a service like this or a planned service? Thanks.
 
boeing 747-311
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 2:41 pm

Thats a good question, i wonder why they dont?
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yyz717
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 2:44 pm

Well, it would be a leisure route. Not many leisure/charter carriers fly the 744. The low yield potential probably keeps BA from interest in the market.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 2:47 pm

Faro is a leisure route and BA does fine with it.
 
shaun3000
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:08 pm

Would anyone actually want to sit on a flight from London to Honolulu?? It would be SO LONG!! London-LAX is pushing it, in my opinion. London-HNL is insane.
 
United Airline
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:35 pm

LAX-LHR is not that long. At least, it takes less time for you fly from LAX to LHR than from HKG to LAX.

Perhaps the market is not there?
 
aussie_
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:51 pm

Shaun3000 - I suppose you have never been on a trans-pacific flight then (try LAX-MEL or ORD-HKG for example)
 
aspen1
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 4:03 pm

i would think that an airline would want to do at least once weekly service to honolulu. United's lax-lhr flights are always filled with passengers continuing onto hawaii, these being paying customers......u would think it would be in the best interest of the airline..


the flight would only be about 12-13 hours.....the flight would take u over northern canada then down to hawaii....by passing the united states entirely
 
 
2cn
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 4:32 pm

Western Airlines operated this route I believe for a short period- it was not non stop, was operated with a DC10 (not sure which version) and had a stop in Anchorage, before continuing onto Honolulu... from what was said before on this site about it, they were loosing money on it and dropped it not too long after it started.
 
swissgabe
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 5:00 pm

Would there be enough pax to carry on a LHR-HNL nonstop?
I think quite a lot of HNL pax use to stop at SFO, LAX or at another US destination and after travelling around at mainland they just want to go for a few days to HNL...
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tullamarine
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 5:01 pm

As stated, it is probably not serviced due to low tourist yields. BA have no 744s configured as 2 class so it is hard to see them being able to sell all P & J seats. This would mean that they'd have to give these seats over to FF seats and therefore the route would be unprofitable.

Were NZ able to fill a 744 on the AKL-LHR route without stopping in LAX it could be possible that they could have their 744 stop in HNL instead of LAX but I wouldn't hold my breath.
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richardw
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:26 pm

With plenty of B747s on the second hand market, is there a market for a single premium economy class style charter start up serving places like HNL, CPT, SAN from LON?
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 8:43 pm

First of all, not a lot of people from the UK go to Hawaii, the mediterrenean and Florida are tourist hot spots for families and leisure. Secondly, a LON-HNL flight would be something like 14-15 hours non-stop even if u take the most northern route possible, a heck of a long time.

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richardw
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 8:53 pm

A long time, like LAX-SYD, but in Premium economy, that isn't too bad
 
747firstclass
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 9:00 pm

The service is not allowed under Bermuda II, at least so long as all other cities keep their service. If service was dropped to another US city, the route authority could be transfered to Hawaii. If openskies ever came, I know there might be some interest in this market. Perhaps LHR-HNL-SYD. I am told such a routing would save a little bit of time from LHR-SYD. However, I still would not bet the farm on this happening.
 
The Coachman
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 9:38 pm

How would LHR-HNL-SYD be shorter than LHR-BKK/SIN-SYD?

Think International date line, think longtitude...then try to say LHR-HNL-SYD is shorter than LHR-BKK/SIN-SYD.
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JAL
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 9:59 pm

That is a good question. Maybe because there is a little demand for flights between these 2 cities.
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lmml 14/32
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:05 pm

I was never aware of the restriction that 747firstclass mentioned. Nevertheless, it will be difficult, if not impossible to sell enough Business Class, worse still First Class, seats on the route. Also HNL is way beyond the pockets of the general UK charter market.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:09 pm

777ER's could easily fly this route as well.
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Cathay Pacific
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:15 pm

just for comparison.



LHR (51°29'N 00°28'W) HNL (21°19'07"N 157°55'21"W) 7236 mi
HKG (22°19'N 113°55'E) LAX (33°56'33"N 118°24'29"W) 7259 mi
HKG (22°19'N 113°55'E) ORD (41°58'47"N 87°54'16"W) 7793 mi
SYD (33°57'S 151°11'E) LAX (33°56'33"N 118°24'29"W) 7487 mi

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dutchjet
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 12:24 am

While this route would certainly look impressive on an airline route map, the simple answer is that there is not enough traffic to operate a flight between these 2 cities, and whatever traffic there is would be low-yeild tourist traffic for people going on vacations.

We discussed this issue here before, Hawaii, while beautiful, is very, very far from Europe and most people are not interested in flying so far and spending so much money on a beach holiday.....there are many beach destinations available from the UK that are within 2 or 3 hours flying and are offered at very cheap prices. Those pax that are interested in flying from London to Hawaii have an amazing amount of choice........via all of the US carriers and their hubs. UA does (did?) offer a one-stop flight via LAX (but with a change of aircraft).

Dont forget that most major US east coast cities do not have nonstop service to Hawaii either - nothing out of BOS, PHL, MIA, IAD, etc. Only in recent years has CO offered nonstop service from the NYC area, out of EWR, to HNL, and that is because of CO's hub. UA in the 1970s offered nonstop JFK-HNL service with its DC8-62s, operating 2, 3 or 4 days per week, and dropped the service during the fuel crisis of 1979, and it never returned. Why? Hawaii is far, and pax prefer Florida,the Bahamas and the Carib for their beach holidays.

WA did give the LGW-ANC-HNL route a try back in the 1980s with their DC-10-10s..........I think that the flight operated twice perweek with mostly empty seats.....it was gone in about 6 months time.
 
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groobster
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 12:40 am

I certainly wouldn't do it non-stop and I regularly travel to the Far East, but not because of flight length, as has been mentioned above, it is shorter than most Europe to Asia flights.

If I was going to Hawaii, I'd do a stopover in San Fransisco, Los Angeles or another US city that services the Pacific islands as it is en route. I suspect thats what happens already.
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yyz717
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 1:47 am

Faro is a leisure route and BA does fine with it.

Faro is much closer to LHR.....and can be operated with less capital intensive aircraft. LHR/LGW-HNL would require a commitment of 2 772/744 equipment if the route was daily.

Even the US majors kept their older DC-10's operating on the low-yield HNL routes prior to retirement long after most other former DC-10 routes had been replaced by the 767/777.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
briboy
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:03 am

Air Canada operates the closest service that compares to UA's JFK-HNL service. AC operates YYZ-HNL non-stop daily. But, this seems more to create a one-stop service to ANZ than pure YYZ-HNL traffic.
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Guest

RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:23 am

OK, what about LHR-NRT-HNL. LHR-NRT I would suppose would have demand. And then, BA could compete with ANA and JAL on the NRT-HNL route. Tons of Japanese flock to HNL every year.



LHR (51°29'N 00°28'W) NRT (35°47'N 140°23'E) 5973 mi
NRT (35°47'N 140°23'E) HNL (21°19'07"N 157°55'21"W) 3819 mi

 
762er
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:26 am

Because FF miles are a major liability to airlines, most US carriers like to have a route to Hawaii because that is where they often dump most if not all of their miles. Hawaii is by far the biggest FF destination from US. This is why Delta really wants to bring back the ATL-HNL nonstop. It is a sacrifice they want to make in order to get their highest paying customers back to buying the highest fares. Perhaps an LHR or LGW nonstop to HNL would allow BA travellers to do the same thing. It is almost a given that they would not make money on this flight, as most flights to Hawaii (besides some of the west coast US flights) lose money, but it would probably wipe out a lot BA ffers' miles acounts. And as Aspen1 said, there are quite a few European passengers that continue on to Hawaii from west coast cities. I wouldn't be surpised to see a BA LGW/LHR-HNL flight in a couple of years that operated a 3 or 4 times perweek, or perhaps only in the winter. It would most likely be on 772. Only time and the economy will tell.
 
srbmod
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:59 am

Typically, when someone flies somewhere to go on vacation, they want to get there ASAP. This is why the Balearics, the Caribbean, and Florida are such popular tourist destinations for UK tourists. And why in the U.S., flights to Vegas, Florida, California, and Hawaii are the most popular (and at the same time, lowest yield) routes to fly on. A trip time like LON-HNL would warrant a longer stay than just a week (most people would take a few days to recover from such a long flight), and with Hawaii being such an expensive destination (they're an island, so most essentials are flown or shipped in), you would more than likely not have the loads to operate the flight on a regular basis. The reason Delta cancelled the ATL-HNL route is because of crew rest requirements. With the 767-400 replacing the L-1011 on this route, there were issues between Delta and their pilots concerning crew rest facilities for these flights, of which there weren't any. Unless Delta has solved that problem, ATL-HNL will continue to operate as ATL-LAX-HNL.
 
David_itl
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 3:14 am


Aren't the Faro flights operate by BA franchisee GB Airways? I'm sure BA handed it to them as GB Airways have a lower cost structure enabling them to make the route profitable.

Any HNL route would be flown by mainline BA aircraft. Perhaps VS may be tempted to do a 2 weekly service?

David/MAN
 
762er
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:28 am

I'm well aware of the problem with ATL-HNL and the 764, but it's a fact that management would really like to see it's return and they are still trying to work something out.
 
DC-10inLB
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:51 am

Western Airlines operated the route in the early 80s. They used a DC-10-10, with a stop in Anchorage. It did not do well at all, really not much of a market there. They tried again for the London market again, this time with a DC-10-30 non-stop from Denver. I think another contributing factor to both routes was to some degree the fact that they flew into Gatwick. Many airlines fight for slots in Heathrow knowing that Gatwick tends to have some poor connections.
 
donder10
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 5:28 am

Faro is operated by GB Airways-not strictly BA,but a franchisee.
 
NG737PSR
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 5:53 am

I can actually remember in the early 1980s (1984 I think) Hawaiian Airlines operating charters using DC-8-62s from Zurich to London Gatwick to Honolulu via Seattle, that must have been some trip, anyone else remember those flights?
 
nwa man
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RE: FlightLevel

Wed Jun 12, 2002 12:56 pm

While it is true that tons of Japanese citizens fly to HNL each year, they have a giant amount of choice when it comes to these flights. ANA, JAL, UA, and NW all fly NRT-HNL, and ANA and JAL do it with amazing frequency (at least five dailies apiece). NW even has two daily flights.

Bottom line-BA would not have the market share necessary to run this flight, and would almost surely lose money as the biggest market for this run would be frequent flyers cashing in air miles. The only real motive for a LHR-HNL flight would be prestige.


NWA Man
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donder10
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 1:53 pm

This would be the lowest yield transatlantic flight of all time possibly!
 
sllevin
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:09 pm

I think one of the great points against the service is the distance itself. Hawaii is indeed beautiful, and the climate wonderful, but it's not truly that much more spectacular than destinations that are far closer.

For the typical tourist, they would probably find tickets costing a couple of hundred dollars more each, as well as losing an entire day to travel. Coupled with how tiring the long flight can be (no matter how much you get up and walk around a 747, long flights are long!), you can essentially lose two days of your vacation.

Those who really want to go to Hawaii will be willing to take a routing that's not non-stop -- and the rest will go somewhere closer to home.

Steve
 
donder10
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RE: Why No London-Hawaii?

Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:11 pm

Exactly,when you go to Palma,Malaga etc for 200 rtn