brons2
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Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:37 pm

Is it for the STOL capability? Seems outdated to have a plane of that size with 4 engines. What kind are they, and what thrust do they offer?
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:18 pm

it was originally for noise abatement.. 4 low-power turbofan engines... some people will say "its the only plane with 5 APUs", but that's the main reason there are 4 instead of 2 engines...

-nate
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
geotrash
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:43 pm

The engines are made by Allied Signal, and the jet is perhaps the quietest in the air.

-Geo
 
backfire
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Thu Jun 27, 2002 5:13 pm

Yes, very quiet -- especially when the engines conk out at high altitude.

An AirBC 146 lost power in three engines at 29,000ft in April 2000, prompting Transport Canada to limit the jet's operational ceiling.

Perhaps that's the reason for having four...
 
jwenting
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Thu Jun 27, 2002 5:19 pm

No, the reason is indeed noise abatement. 4 low-power ultrahigh-bypass turbofans make a lot less noise than 2 higher power high-bypass turbofans (remember this was 20 years ago, it is now possible to make a twin with about the same noiselevel in that class).
Climb performance was also an important factor. In normal service, the aircraft does not need full power to climb, but the 4 engines give it power for steep climbs from short runways (London City comes to mind, but this was originally intended for military use from unprepared strips in combat zones. The 146 was envisioned as a light tactical transport for the RAF).
I wish I were flying
 
strickerje
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Thu Jun 27, 2002 6:04 pm

some people will say "its the only plane with 5 APUs"

Nahh, I've heard that said about the A340 too.  Big grin
 
737heavy
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:21 pm

The first 2 stages of flap aren't half noisey.

Regards
 
Notarzt
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:24 pm

>>some people will say "its the only plane with 5 APUs"
>>
>Nahh, I've heard that said about the A340 too.
>
Indeed!  Big grin
 
Skymonster
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:58 pm

It has four engines because there's no way it'd fly with only one of those little things under each wing Big grin
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
broke
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Thu Jun 27, 2002 9:42 pm

The reason for 4 engines was a combination of required power and the desire to have as quiet an airplane as possible. Early in its career, engine failures were a real problem; which resulted in the statement that it had 4 engines so it would always have a spare handy. The engines were originally developed by Lycoming in Bridgeport, CT before they were swallowed up in the merger craze.
 
charliecossie
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Fri Jun 28, 2002 12:00 am

Roland was once asked, "Why does the 146 have four engines?"
He replied, "Because there isn't room for five!"
 
Guest

RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Fri Jun 28, 2002 12:33 am

I once heard that the UK Government wanted something that could take off from the gardens of Buckingham Palace in case they needed to evacuate the royal famly. Probably a load of BS though? They could just use a helicopter or a harrier.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Fri Jun 28, 2002 12:41 am

Given that the powerplants had some reliability problems in the begining, there were two sayings popular back then re: the BAe-146...

1/ The "BAe" stands for "bring another engine" as in unscheduled engine changes...

2/ "Why does the BAe-146 have 4 engines?" Answer: two to get you there, and 2 to get you back home......


(BAe-146 fans: Don't flame me, these were related to me by someone who used to work at AirCal)
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
GDB
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:16 am

The genesis of the 146 was not military, or related to carrying V.I.P.s.
In the early 70's, it was thought they'd be a boom in city centre airports, or more correctly 'STOLports'. To operate quiet, short take-off aircraft, the Dash 7 was also inspired by this idea.
In the early 70's, about the only possible powerplant was a fan adaptation of the powerplant fitted to CH-47 Chinook military helicopters.
The original HS-146 was axed in early 1974, due to the oil-crisis and big slump in civil aviation it caused.
As the BAe-146, the project was restarted in 1978.
Ironically the STOLport market never emerged, and the 146 didn't exactly have a huge portfolio of orders when it entered service in 1982.
It was Pacific Southwest Airlines in California who ensured the aircraft's long-term success, when it brought 25 146's in 1983 to replace 727's that could not meet tough local airport noise regs, and the 146 was more economical and suited in size for many of PSA's routes anyway.
Of course Air Winsconsin was the first US operator, but PSA was then seen as a bigger, more innovative airline, which also operated full-size ailiners like the 727 and MD-80.
 
VH-DAQ
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:42 am


5 apu's : "I've heard that said about the A340 too."

BAE- bring another engine and the 340 just has hairdryers!

HOOroo
DAQ


 
SSTjumbo
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:56 am

Hey, could someone let me in on more of these STOLports? I'd like to know where more of them are. Is CGX considered one? Thanks  Smile
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
GDB
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Fri Jun 28, 2002 3:13 am

London City is one, but they never really took off-pardon the pun!
 
miller22
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:41 am

I was told the wing of the 146 didn't have the hardpoints that could support the weight of 2 larger engines, so they went with 4 smaller.
 
aamd11
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Fri Jun 28, 2002 7:39 am

Miller22 is right there.
It was in the 70s when it was first designed, that there were no suitable engines of which the 146 could have one of each on its wings. the RR Spey and Jr. Spey were far too heavy for the 146s wings to hold, so they opted for four smaller engines instead.

Hope that helps.
 
acidradio
Crew
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:37 pm

Where I work, our RJ85's (same idea) go to Aspen, CO (ASE) which has like a 9000' elevation. The BAe146 family is really the only commercial aircraft that goes into there since nothing else can match the lost-engine performance on takeoff at that high of an altitude. Private jets (usually twin engines) go in there, but if you were to lose an engine at that altitude upon takeoff, I'd imagine that could be rough.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:06 pm

Having flown on a BAe-146, on thing you notice is how fast the plane climbs off the runway and stops during landing, mostly because of the large flaps on the wings and the slow landing speed.

This is why I'm disappointed AC didn't buy the RJX-100; such large safety margins would make the plane perfect for operations during harsh Canadian winters, especially on ice-prone runways.
 
trintocan
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Sun Jun 30, 2002 9:16 am

GDB beat me to it, the Dash 7 was also designed along the same lines and has 4 Pratt and Whitney PT-6 engines (ie Twin Otter engines!). Again the philosophy was to operate from city airports and thus quietness and ability to climb steeply from short runways were major considerations. The city airport boom did not materialize and the Dash 7 remained a relatively poor seller - selling just about 111.

Trintocan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
srbmod
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:11 am

Like it was said earlier, when the plane was designed, they originally were going to use two engines. The story I read was not that the proposed engines were too heavy, rather that they engines they wanted to use would not be available on a timetable that suited BAe, so the Lycoming jet engines were decided on and the number of engines went to four due to the lesser power of the new engines.
 
Duncan
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:51 am

I saw a proposal for the 146 for HP (AmWest) and one of the big selling points was the 3 engine ferry flight capability. If one engine goes t*ts up, you can ferry the aircraft back with only 3 engines to save the cost of shipping a motor and installing it at an outstation. Obviously a selling point, given the reported unreliability mentioned above!  Big grin

Duncan
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 4:56 am

I think the BAe-146/Avro ARJ is a good looking airplane. I like the 717-200 a hell of alot better though. The 717 is quieter in my opinion, and it smells better. The BAe smells decent enough, and I would fly on one anyday, but if you had a BAe-146, and a 717 sitting right next to each other, and you gave me a choice, I would take the 717
Puhdiddle
 
RJ
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:49 am



Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Because it can!!!!

Happy flying!!!

RJ


(I just couldn't resist)
 
Duncan
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 7:50 am

I can't wait for the day that airlines choose a type of plane because of it's smell  Big grin I can't wait to see the odor characteristics on the spec sheet I can see it now:

BAe 146-300:
Powerplants:
BAe 146-300 - Four 31.0kN (6900lb) Textron Lycoming ALF 502R5 turbofans. RJ100 - Four 31.1kN (7000lb) AlliedSignal LF 507 turbofans.

Performance:
146-300 - Max operating speed Mach 0.72, cruising speed 790km/h (426kt), long range cruising speed 700km/h (377kt). Range with standard fuel 2817km (1520nm), range with max payload 1927km (1040nm). RJ100 - Max operating speed Mach 0.72, cruising speed 763km/h (412kt), long range cruising speed 720km/h (389kt). Range with max fuel 2760km (1490nm), range with max payload 2129km (1150nm).

Weights:
146-300 - Operating empty 24,878kg (54,848lb), max takeoff 44,225kg (97,500lb). 146-300QT - Operating empty 23,126kg (50,985lb), max takeoff same. RJ100 - Operating empty 25,600kg (56,438lb), max takeoff initally 44,225kg (97,500lb), later 46,039kg (101,500lb). RJ100QT - Operating empty 23,706kg (52,263lb), max takeoff same as 100. RJ115 - Operating empty 26,156kg (57,665lb), max takeoff as 100.

Dimensions:
Wing span 26.21m (86ft 0in), length 30.99m (101ft 8in), height 8.61m (28ft 3in). Wing area 77.3m2 (832sq ft).

Capacity:
Flightcrew of two plus a maximum of 128 passengers at six abreast and 74cm (29in) pitch. Seating arrangements also for 100 at 84cm (33in) pitch and five abreast, and 116 at six abreast. 146-300QT and RJ100QT can accommodate standard 2.74 x 2.24m (108 x 88in) pallets, or LD3 containers. Max payload of 12,490kg (26,075lb). RJ115 would seat 116 to 128.

Odor:
Cruise - Choice of: 'Mountain Fresh with a hint of Lavendar', 'Ocean breeze with a touch of citrus' or 'Chemical Toilet'.
Ground/Taxi - 'Hazy Meadow', 'Orchard Breeze' or 'flatulent, unwashed cigar smoker'

Duncan  Innocent
 
TWAMD-80
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:13 pm

Hey, do the engines on the 146 have thrust reversers? I have never seen them. I know they put out a big air brake right before touchdown, but I'm not sure on the reversers.

TW
Two A-4's, left ten o'clock level continue left turn!
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:07 pm

None of the BAe-146/Avro RJ have thrust reversers. The design of the wing, and the air brakes act in place of the thrust reversers
Puhdiddle
 
LZ-TLT
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RE: Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 6:48 pm

This was told be by a BA employee at CGN:

"What stands the 146 in BAe-146 for?"
1 engine will always fail
it has 4 but
it really needs 6

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