Jaws707
Topic Author
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AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 4:35 am

I was just wondering on what AA plans on doing with St. Louis. That was the old hub of TWA, and do they plan on keeping STL as a hub? I would imagine with ORD and DFW they have enough hubs in the midwest and all STL probobly does is increase their cost structure. I was thinking STL could be used for a variety of short and regional flights. Anyone have any info if AA has discussed this at all and what their plans may be.
 
Guest

RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:11 am

I am taking a flight from MCI to IND tomorrow through STL and one from SNA to MCI through STL in November. As far as I know, AA will probably keep STL for a while because they pretty much dominate STL. I heard they were going to cut some flights and have most connections go through DFW or ORD, but personally, I would rather connect through STL because it is not as busy as the other two hubs.
 
blink182
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:14 am

It could really be anything. I think AA has not given a lot of thought to it as there are so many aspects of the merger that they have to deal with and STL really comes down to the route system, so that will eventually be addressed. Supposedly, American started STL-YVR service about a month ago.

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
Matt D
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:17 am

AA will probably keep STL for a while because they pretty much dominate STL

Based on history, that is a very weak barometer reading on what's to come.

Not once, but twice, AA had a chance to take over the West Coast, with AirCal and Reno Air, and lots of very lucrative slots in and out of SJC, SNA, SFO, as well as ONT, LAX, and RNO.

And look what happened. They managed to flush it down the drain both times.

So don't hold your breath.

 
TWAalltheway
Posts: 142
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:19 am

If AA plans on doing anything, they should seriously reconsider the STL expansion program and layout, and demolish the existing terminal layout. It just doesn't work. And pretty much everyone who's flown through STL once or twice knows how cramped it can get.

According to the STL expansion website, they say that there are no plans for terminals in Phase 1, but Phase 2 calls for terminal "renovation", not replacement. The current terminal design cannot be expanded further, and its already cramped. It won't work for future route expansion either.

I used to give credit to STL because of TWA being a major there, but now, as I took a flight recently through there, I decided that STL needs a new design.


If you want to see an efficient airport design, take a flight through PIT. One heck of a nice airport.

TWA all they way
 
738_Driver
Posts: 74
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 11:37 am

Blink....

You're wrong when say that you think that AA has not given a lot of thought to the future of STL. There has been plenty of thought put into it and how it fits into the route system with both ORD and DFW.

MattD....

What lucrative slots are you talking about? SJC, LAX, ONT, SFO and RNO do not follow slot allocations. Additionally, all the SNA slots allocated to QQ when AA purchased them are still in AA hands and are being used under the use 'em or lose 'em rule. Additionally, what exactly do you think AA flushed down the drain on the left coast this time around? A hub in RNO? AA didn't buy QQ for the RNO hub but rather the assets it provided. Yes, the aircraft are gone, but the purchase was intended on using those aircraft short term until they could be replaced.
 
penguinflies
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:50 pm

Hey Ironclad, where did you hear that they were going to put more connections through DFW and ORD?

I read some of their 10K report and they have the hub profiles on AMR.com. STL is intended to be relief for east west domestic traffic, nothing more. It will be easier when AA can reschedule the routes here so that they can make STL into an efficient airport. They only got 350000 sq feet of space to work with, compared to DFW which has 3 million sq ft.

STL should fit nicely into AA's plan. TWA couldn't make it efficient because of how many aircraft they had to cram in there. Take out the AA Connection, lose some redundant flights and this airport will be much much better.
 
nwa757300
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:55 pm

It was my understanding that STL serves a big purpose as an overflow hub for ORD. They wanted STL because expansion is so tough out of ORD. STL gives them an option to expand and offer people more options for connections. STL is a much bigger market than RNO or BNA ever were. I think it will take a while but AA will make it work. It's too big of a market to give up.
 
flyCMH
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 1:36 pm

I read that this fall, American Airlines will reduce the number of banks operated in St. Louis from 12 to 10, resulting in the loss of a little over 20 mainline flights. Apparently it's due to the continued lack of business travel.

There has been a lot of speculation concerning the future of the STL hub. I personally don't see why it can't coexist with American's other hubs in ORD and DFW. Many of the posts about this topic all seem to predict that STL will become more of a transit hub, relying mostly on connecting passengers, opening up more seats for lucrative O&D routes into Chicago. Also, STL would serve as a reliever to ORD. I guess the people in the Dallas Metroplex will make the ultimate decision.
 
cba
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 1:39 pm

ORD doesn't have much room for growth. United has dealt with this by expanding at Denver, and is making that a very large East-West hub. If AA is smart, they will do the same thing with STL.
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:58 pm

I think the future has arrived. Basically, all east/west low yield traffic is going throught STL and all high yield O&D is coming out of DFW and ORD. If you go to AA.com and look at a schedule for a city pair-say LAX/SFO/SEA to IND/CLE/DCA, you will find that ALL listings are through STL. It is impossible to get a fare quote through DFW or ORD.
 
Guest

RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:21 pm

very true... you can actually see it while booking flights. I managed to get SJC-STL-RDU-STL-SJC for $275, while through Dallas or Chicago it was over $350.
 
airworthy
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 11:06 pm

Some of the reason for fares being lower through St. Louis are because of the lower unit costs of the currently isolated ex-TWA operation.

It's nice that AA can funnel low-yield transcon traffic thru STL, like a grandma flying from BNA to SMF, rather than having her ass take a seat that could potentially be used for a last-minute business man on a flight through Chicago, which has better facilities and connections.
 
AerLingus
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sat Jun 29, 2002 11:15 pm

Right, I think STL can be successful as a low-yield hub but the question is for how long.

Remember how AA left its east-coast mini-hub in the lurch? THAT is what concerns me.
Get your patchouli stink outta my store!
 
blink182
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sun Jun 30, 2002 12:24 am

I guess STL will be used as a reliever hub, which is probably a good move. DFW, where AA probably has 60-70 gates is starting to get a little crowded right now. I won't even discuss Chicago as it is pretty much packed to the brim. Last I heard, one of the bigger reasons AA bought TWA was due to the St. Louis hub.

Does anybody know whether STL will see any longhauls other than the LGW flight? Maybe a flight to SCL to connect to LAN's hub? What about a ZRH flight to meet up with Swiss?

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
Guest

RE: AA And St. Louis

Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:22 am

I would have to say that SCL and ZRH are VERY doubtful
 
blink182
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sun Jun 30, 2002 6:54 am

AA-STL:
I chose those two because Santiago is home of LAN Chile(AA partner and Oneworld member). Zurich is the home of SWISS(AA partner, future Oneworld member?) If anything, I think CDG gets added next.

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sun Jun 30, 2002 7:54 am

blink182, there isn't even any ORD-SCL flights. CDG was already dropped and there are no signs that it is returning. It was downgraded to seasonal and then AA decided just to cancel it all together.
a.
 
Guest

RE: AA And St. Louis

Sun Jun 30, 2002 12:52 pm

I know that, but I am just saying they are doubtful due to no CDG or FRA flight.............And STL is not going to be used as an international gateway
 
blink182
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Sun Jun 30, 2002 10:45 pm

AA-STL,
I never said it was  Smile

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
atcboy73
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Mon Jul 01, 2002 12:07 am

I am an air traffic controller and this topic is very important to me because I am seriously contemplating a move to STL. I am 99.9% sure this is where I am going next and feel pretty good about the amount of traffic that will be there for some time. Consider this-

In the huge transcontential (connecting) market United now has the same cramped hub (ORD)to deal with and American now has three, giving the business traveler who has experianced the O'hare situation even more options.

Just like has been said in a previous post, I also think the STL hub will continue as a reliever for both hubs. I flew DFW-ACT last week. A 23 minute flight (scheduled for 50 minutes), departing terminal A and using runway 18R for take off (not a long taxi). We didnt sit in a very long line but we still got to Waco about 5 minutes late. As big as DFW is, it hampers the aircraft utilization rate.

STL, even with its close, side by side runways can move some serious taffic on, even a marginal VFR day, using the LDA approach.

Comparing STL to the west coast is a little off (In my opioin) because of the low cost competetion from some very established carriers like SWA and Alaske, then of corse there is United. STL has the potential to pull from every region of the country. If the cost structure of USAir was right I think they could of made BWI and PHL work at the same time. The catchment areas for STL and ORD are much bigger (meaning the whole country) and with the right A/C, schedualing and an appropriate cost structure I dont see why this wont work.

 
blink182
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Mon Jul 01, 2002 1:05 am

Atcboy73- You have some good points there, and I think everybody agrees that American will continue to be #1 at STL.

When will AA give the STL crews the opportunity to move to another crew base? I know they will get this opportunity, but does anybody know when?

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
atcboy73
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Mon Jul 01, 2002 1:32 am

FLYCMH

I am wondering where you read that AMR is going to drop 2 banks?

I know you said in your post that they would do this this fall. But it kinda surprises me because they just reinstated the 10:30pm bank.
 
flyCMH
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Mon Jul 01, 2002 2:36 am

I read the information on the USAviation.com message boards.
 
atcboy73
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Mon Jul 01, 2002 2:42 am

FLYCMH

Thanks, Ill check it out.
 
738_Driver
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Mon Jul 01, 2002 7:53 am

Banks 11 and 12 will be dropped with the remaining banks spread out to get a better bank timing effective August 1st.
 
Boiler Special
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Mon Jul 01, 2002 10:28 am

The latest bank east (9PM) and latest bank west (1030PM) aren't the hottest performers and were really only there for aircraft utilization purposes. With the removal of these banks the hope is to boost revenue performance, as well as load factors, for the STL operation. The two morning east and west banks will remain as-is, but with the rest spreading out throughout the day on-time performance (which is already pretty high) should improve as well.

The STL operation isn't going anywhere... once the economy rebounds it will make money. And even now it serves an important purpose in the AA system.
 
Adam84
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Mon Jul 01, 2002 11:56 am

I am quite thankful for the STL hub right now.

I am moving back home on July 13th and I missed the 14 day advance purchase. While fares out of SJC/SFO hovered around $800 r/t through DFW I was able to get a $494 r/t through STL with good times.

Even the one way YUP (pay full coach fare with guaranteed upgrade to First) was around $870 through STL and around $1300 through DFW.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: AA And St. Louis

Mon Jul 01, 2002 12:15 pm

What I can forsee is a tweaking of schedules allowing virtual "shuttle connections" through hundreds of city pairs utilizing all 3 hubs. Imagine the AAdvantage of being able to offer 15-20 connections a day for say PDX-LGA, SLC-DCA, PHX-BOS etc...the possibility of becoming the domestic medium/long haul US connection leader is obvious.
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL