flyboy80
Posts: 1816
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:17 am

I know this has really been discussed but for the same price it seems that the A320 is a better aircraft then the 738! I might be wrong on some of these so bare with me please!
The A320 is what lets see, faster, flys longer, quieter, more fuel efficant, and has Fly By Wire(FBW)??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Ive been trying to convince my self for long that boeing is better! But if this stuff is really TRUE hten Boeing isnt better the BUS is! Now ive got nothing against bus, but hey one has to be better! Someone help me out here!
Thanks!
Bri
(flyboy80)
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:25 am

The A320 is what lets see, faster

Wrong, it is not faster. They both cruise at around M O.785.

flys longer

True, but only 50-100km longer, this makes no difference at all for airline routes.

quieter

In your opinion maybe, but I've flown on both and the A320 IMO is certainly not more quiet than the 737NG.

more fuel efficant

Care to show figures proving that?

But if this stuff is really TRUE

Actually it's extremely false.


Please try a thread that makes a little more sense next time..........


-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:25 am

I would dare to say errrrrr..................................................................................
IT IS BETTER!! Altough for me it is....
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:28 am

NWA742,

It is faster. Cruise at .79 and if you want you can take it up to .82 no problemo!

738 climbs faster tough so it might be as fuel effective as the bus!

MTOW on the bus is higher so a bigger payload but more taxes to be paid....etc..etc...etc....
 
NWA742
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Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:34 am

It is faster. Cruise at .79 and if you want you can take it up to .82 no problemo!

The 738 cruises officially at M 0.79, which is M 0.785 rounded up. M 0.82 is the A320's maximum operating speed according to Airbus, so taking it up to that speed like you claim would obviously be very inefficient. The 738 maximum operating speed is also M 0.82. The A320 is not faster, period.

MTOW on the bus is higher so a bigger payload but more taxes to be paid....etc..etc...etc....

738 MTOW: 174,200 lb
A320 MTOW: 162,000 lb

Sources: Boeing and Airbus



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
N79969
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:37 am

I read that the 737NG also has a higher service ceiling than the 320-series. I think it is FL410 or 430. Is this correct?
 
DIA
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:41 am

They both have their advantages and disadvantages depending on what the client is looking for. $ is the bottom line. F9 really wanted Boeings, but the price for the Airbuses was so good, they couldn't pass it up. The same could be said about airlines that went with 737NGs instead of Airbuses.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
NWA742
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:41 am

M79969, that is correct.

Not to mention, the 738 has more cargo space in terms of cubic ft, it has a higher MTOW for more payload capabilities.


-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
GD727
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:43 am

Ha! The 737NG is a much better aircraft. Why? It is more sturdy than the A320. Want proof? Southwest Airlines, WN's aircraft take such a beating (they land, they offload the luggage and pax, they load the new luggage and pax, and depart in 10-15 minutes!), and they still have one of the best safety records in the world. Does any airlines who owns A320's do this, I don't think so.

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:48 am

I definitely prefer Boeing over Airbus. But I have to give Airbus credit for offering a containerized cargo hold for a narrowbody. The 737 seems to do a lot better in high-cycle operations.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:49 am

Just pushed the "Delete button"...guess why.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
brons2
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:50 am

FBW being better is a subjective thing....

the airbus is a little roomier.

the boeing is a little more optimized for high cycle ops.

they've both sold a ton of planes.

yawn.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:53 am

FBW being better is a subjective thing....

True, very true.

the airbus is a little roomier

That depends more on the airline than the aircraft. The A320's cabin is a few inches wider but that has hardly a difference on the seat comfort.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:22 am

We can argue all we like about which is better, but the truth is, it's vague to suggest one is better than the other.

For AA, the 738 is better than the A320
For Ryanair, the 738 is better than the A320
For Jetblue, the A320 is better than the 737

You can argue with all the facts and statistics, but unless you're an airline official or a mechanic, you won't know which is better.

Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Goldenshield
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:26 am

Being that we can fit bigger cargo into the A320, I go with the A320. Also nice to have is that bulk bin, where we can put extra bags, cargo, etc, in case we have many HR's.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:30 am

I too have just hit the delete button. Is there anyone willing to take a shot in the dark as to why?
 
qatarairways
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:31 am

I agree with what Arsenal@LHR said. Modern Airliners from Boeing and AIrbus are very similar in both ecnonomics and performance and so fleet decisions these days are mainly based on commonality with the rest of the fleet, types of operations and aquisition costs.

From what I have read a while back, 40% of operating costs are attributed to Aquisition costs and the remaining variables such as fuel consumption and maintanence costs are smaller than what you think. So even if the A320 is 5% more fuel-efficient than the 738 or if it is the other way round the DOC would still be very similar and won't make much of a difference.

Regards,
QatarAirways
 
captaingomes
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:37 am

While I sort of agree with some of the above posters that this thread is somewhat meaningless, for the one who started it, it isn't! If you don't want to read it, don't read it, but don't go on about how it should be deleted.

Regarding the topic at hand, I do have to hand it to Airbus for providing true competition to Boeing in this class of aircraft. It forces Boeing to progress, and ensures the market doesn't become stale. You can bet that Boeing wouldn't have made as many changes to the 737NG as they did had the A320 not been created. But the bottom line, as has been said, is that both are extremely successful airplanes, and good at what they are designed to do.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
fritzi
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:40 am

These threads are very amusing to read because everyone flames at each other! But still, they piss me off because both are very good types of aircraft.
(Airbus is a little better in my view. Hey, I'm European)  Big grin

DELETE!!!
 
N79969
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:48 am

I agree with CaptainGomes. I don't understand all the 'deletes.' Although these threads usually degenerate quickly and reach no conclusion, this one has not. It has been respectful point and counterpoint discussion. Some of the people here may not have seen earlier discussions about this topic. It's purely aviation related, no one has been skewered personally, and it is new and interesting for some people. Leave it alone.

 
Iflymidwexprss
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:05 pm

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:49 am


People, go to the "suggest deletion" field and read what it says in the sixth column down.

'Nuff said.
 
A388
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:04 am

I agree with Arsenal@LHR, QatarAirways and Captaingomes. Couldn't have said it better guys.

A388
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:06 am

If any of you have access to the Air Transport Association's 2002 annual report, they give cost figures for various aircraft including fuel burn and costs per hour for A320 and various 737 models. I do not have a copy handy but it is interesting reading. You can come to your own conclusions. If you actually have the interest, you could probably build a spreadsheet to do various comparisons.

The website: www.airlines.org

I repeat, so far, this thread has not been childish. I hope it is not deleted premptively.
 
donder10
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:14 am

Fuel costs are about 10% of total I am lead to believe
If any of you have access to the Air Transport Association's 2002 annual report, they give cost figures for various aircraft including fuel burn and costs per hour for A320 and various 737 models
I would take them with a pinch of salt.They listed the 346's fuel burn which says something about their credibility.

 
Scorpio
Posts: 4792
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:16 am

Oh will you 'holier than thou' pretty boys with your 'suggest deletion' crap please just stuff it?? Come on, a serious question was raised, and the discussion has so far remained civil. The only crap posts so far have been the ones by the people suggesting deletion and wanting everybody to know. The 'suggest deletion' button is there mainly for discussions that get out of hand, and that is clearly not the case here. This board is here to discuss aviation, and Airbus and Boeing being the two main manufacturers of civil aircraft, it is only natural that there will be discussions comparing both. And as long as they're civil, I don't see the friggin' problem.

To the topic: Both the 737NG and the A32X are excellent aircraft, and it is clear by the sales figures that this is the case.

Some arguments:

Ha! The 737NG is a much better aircraft. Why? It is more sturdy than the A320. Want proof? Southwest Airlines, WN's aircraft take such a beating (they land, they offload the luggage and pax, they load the new luggage and pax, and depart in 10-15 minutes!), and they still have one of the best safety records in the world.

Well, Southwest has only ever operated the 737, they've never operated the A320, so we'll never know if they couldn't have done the same thing with A320s..

Does any airlines who owns A320's do this, I don't think so

Doesn't JetBlue operate in a very similar way?
 
VC-10
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:20 am

Virgin Sun operated A320's on intensive IT work. The only major delays were when the loaders ot toileteers rammed the a/c with their ground eqipment.

Several other european operators use the A320 series for It work without any problems.
 
Iflymidwexprss
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:05 pm

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:22 am


Good point, guys. I shouldn't have been so hasty with my itchy trigger finger...
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:40 am

While I sort of agree with some of the above posters that this thread is somewhat meaningless, for the one who started it, it isn't! If you don't want to read it, don't read it, but don't go on about how it should be deleted.

Airbus vs. Boeing wars are SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED by the rules of this message boards! Go back and read them again!
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
aerosol
Posts: 497
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:49 am

Southwest: 8 cent the seat per mile
Jetblue: 6,5 cent the seat per mile
source: Brandeins (German marketing magazine)
But I do not think this helps the discussion as Southwest has a fleet which is older on average. Also other factors (e.g. wages) contribute costs.

Aquisition costs are no operating costs, because depreciation is not regarded as costs, because there is no 'cash' outflow!

Have a nice day!

Aerosol
 
Scorpio
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:49 am

Airbus vs. Boeing wars are SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED by the rules of this message boards! Go back and read them again!

Define WAR. To me that means that people start yelling, calling each other bad names, etc etc.. See any of that here? I don't. So we're not breaking the rules.
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 4:00 am

We should all march to the tune of the select few here who want to follow the rules line by line and to their OWN interpretation, whereby in a public forum free speech is just a farce. For future reference to everybody, let's only post stuff which interests only a select few who will only allow us to post what they want us to post. These people don't understand the meaning of only looking at what interests them. They want to read every little thing, and if it doesn't interest them, they will suggest deletion. Also, I suggest that we all wear uniforms when coming in here, because we can't have people wearing different clothes, or no clothes at all, as we should all strive to be the same as one another. That should lead to healthy discussion. Maybe we should get a thread going in the site-related forum.

Regarding the A320, I am assuming that its acquisition costs are lower than the 737NG, and that favours many airlines when making purchase decisions. However, I wonder what made Ryanair decide to purchase the 737, especially such a large amount of them too. If acquisition costs are that high, they surely would shy away from it. Same goes for Westjet which ordered 737NG to replace their older 732's.

C'mon, let's all have fun with this subject, and DISCUSS the issues here. It is interesting, and it can be taken quite far, especially with respect to operations and economics. It would be interesting to get mechanic's perspectives as well, as per dispatch reliability at the airlines they work for.

Let's keep this going and let's keep it sane! And if you don't want to discuss it, then DON'T! But, let those of us who want to discuss this topic continue. It is a DISCUSSION forum after all.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 4:04 am

How old are you guys.

Why suggest deletion here????

I find this a very interesting thread without flamewars. It would be sad if this would be deleted.

To all who wants a war here, get a life.

/Frederic

 
qatarairways
Posts: 864
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:02 pm

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 4:10 am

Captaingomes,

List price for the A32X aircraft is cheaper than B737NG's but in Ryanair's case they were given a discount of 40%!!! QR for example had an all-Boeing fleet upto 1997 when the decision was taken to convert an all-Airbus fleet because of aquisition costs.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 4:13 am

The ATA annual report is highly credibile. I did not see the A346 in it but that does not mean it is not there or perhaps included as a typo. It is a good source of info for those of you who like to see numbers.
 
qatarairways
Posts: 864
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:02 pm

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 4:18 am

The problem with the report is that it uses airlines' figures to report costs. This could lead to many problems because some airlines have different costs than others depending on pay, location of where fuel is bought etc... One example is that the 737-800 is listed as less costly to operate than the B737-700 which is very hard to believe.
 
yago
Posts: 228
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:28 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 4:37 am

I love the 737 and love the A320.

I'm surprise to hear the Airbus is cheaper as nearly all low cost airlines fly 737s.

Both a/c must have their advantages, there are even airlines with both airplanes (AF, BA, LH...).

The only advantage I can see from one to the other is that I work for Lufthansa Cargo and believe me, it is much easier to carry cargo in A320 due to their palletized holds. That's all I can see.

I've flown in both airplanes and they're as nice.

Yago
 
ejaymd11
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:04 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:27 am

Why can't people be mature. When I see a post that pisses me off, do you know what I do? I hit the back button and find another post, do you think I waste my time to respond at all. Come one people grow up be a little mature nothing is wrong with this post. No one suggested deletion about the gay airline, something that should not have even be posted, but you want to delete an aviation related topic. Anyway, I don't really like any I prefer the DC-9 series, but I think that the A320 has proven to be the 737NG greatest competition after the DC-9 series left the market. As far as FBW goes do airlines really take that into affect when choosing an aircraft?

Ejay MD-11
 
ejaymd11
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:04 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:34 am

One more thing I while back I started a topic about Airbus VS Boeing why wrong, and I could not get one god reason why this topic is not allowed. The most responses I got said some people here are just immature asses. My topic didn't last more than a week before it was deleted even though it did not discuss the two companies just asked why the topic was not allowed.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:37 am

I believe the main benefit of FBW is weight savings. I'm not sure how much or how important those savings are to an airline. As far as the ATA figures, they do come from operators so there is a lot of variability that may not be connected to an aircraft's performance. QatarAirways is correct. My thought is that for the armchair airline managers that post in this forum, the numbers that ATA uses are good enough for some comparison.
 
qatarairways
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RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:42 am

EJAYMD11
"As far as FBW goes do airlines really take that into affect when choosing an aircraft?"

I don't know if FBW is such a decision factor but it is very beneficial. FBW is good because it saves weight over a conventional aircraft by doing so it increases payload and reduces fuel consuption. FBW also saves money over the conventional system in the maintanence side of things because it is much easier to maintain and breaks down less often. One last point is that FBW has a safety aspect by not allowing pilots to exceed the aircraft's design limits and by doing so they reduce stress on wings etc... at the same time this reduces maintanence costs and prolongs the life of the wings.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:48 am

If you want a subject to disappear, why the hell are you posting? An unintentionally hilarious and sanctimonious "I'm pressing delete" post may alert an administrator (if only to your own idiocy) and make you feel warm inside, but meanwhile you've put the offending (as if) thread back to the top.

Arseholes!!!

PS A320 good. 737 bad. Well, actually there's not a lot of difference, I prefer the A320 series cos they have a groovy interior and are wider. Plus the FBW systems mean that if it's the forth sector of the day, the crew will still feel fresh. As for actual figures, I have no idea. Probably about the same.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
flyboy80
Posts: 1816
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:53 am

alright this isnt supposed to be a WAR! Its a question that i aske dand i wanted facts not criticism to eachother, DIA WHATS F9 ?
 
fallingeese
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:33 pm

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:55 am

A big reason behind which aircraft the airline choses is when it can aquire the aircraft. With Westjet, which chose the 737-700, they couldn't aquire the A319 early enough, and training would be more costly in the initial phases. Also the A318 was and still is awhile away. Costs associated with it weren't released. There were no operators of the Boeing 737NG in Canada so Boeing offered a lower price. Westjet liked the idea of being solely Boeing and the proximity to Everitt. Who knows what Westjet would have done if it's initial plans of operating DC-9's had gone through.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 6:11 am

Cedarjet,
Although I think the opposite about 737 vs. 320-- I do like your clear, concise way of stating your aircraft preference.
 
GD727
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2002 7:33 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 6:34 am

Scorpio-I don't think Jetblue does a 10 minute turn around, do they? If so, they are the first operator I know of to work A320's like that.

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 6:42 am

The reason most LCCs carriers use 737s is the abundance of cheap classic models eg 732s being used by FR,WN etc Jetblue is the obvious exception-it was one of the most highly capitalised start-ups ever.Jetblue could not manage 10 minute turn arounds considering it flies to quite a few primary airports.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4792
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 6:56 am

GD727,

I don't know whether JetBlue turns around its A320s in 10 minutes, and I doubt it quite honestly, but if I'm correct neither does Southwest with its 737s. Isn't the true figure something like 20-25 minutes? That's what I thought it was.
 
762er
Posts: 522
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2001 8:18 am

RE: What! Is The A320 Really Better!?!?

Tue Jul 02, 2002 8:29 am

I hate to admit it, but I like the A32X series better than 737-800 as a passenger. I am a frequent flier on Delta and US Airways and will always choose the 320 if I have the option. Reasons: wider cabin, much quieter, both airplanes have very smooth rides, and you're going to think I'm crazy, but I've never had a really smooth landing on a 738, whereas they're routine on the A32X. I know this all depends on the pilots, but I have probably flown in both airplanes 20 times a piece and the 738 landings are never pleasant. In terms of technical aspects the two airplanes are pretty similar. From studies I've seen here's how it measures up: Cargo goes to the 320, lower CSM to 738, quieter cabin-A320, speed-equal, range-equal, performance-equal, comfort-320.