flyboy80
Posts: 1812
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:21 pm

hey all! i have a question, i was wondering if there is a law against from say a foregin airline, for example JAL, from operating a domestic route such as JFK-SFO? Is there i was just wondering this, is it like this in most countries? thanks
Bri
 
Ryanair!!!
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:25 pm

In most countries, yes, its the law. Something about "freedom" rights. Either that or the airline can stop in LAX on the way to JFK, but they cannot pick up any passengers in LAX.
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Ex_SQer
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 3:18 pm

Most countries don't have official "laws" in their books, but almost all countries will not grant foreign carriers these rights as a matter of policy... and most of the time it is to protect their own airlines.

Check this thread for more info.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/857871/4/
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 3:38 pm

Check this thread for more info:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/857871/4/

Most countries don't have official laws against allowing foreign carriers to fly domestic routes with traffic rights, but most countries do have policies that disallow or discourage granting of traffic rights on domestic sectors to foreign carriers. This is done mostly to protect home carriers. Policies and laws are two different, though related, concepts.
 
philb
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 3:39 pm

No, it is NOT the law of most countries which places restrictions on foreign carriers operating in this way.

What governs foreign airlines carrying passengers between points in a foreign country are International Air Agreements which define the "freedoms of the air".

One of these, the "fifth freedom", allows the carriage of passengers between points by a carrier in a foreign country or from a foreign country to a yet another foreign country.

These freedoms (a set of restrictions in reality) were laid down at the beginning of international services and have only been slightly amended since.

Within the EU, deregulation has allowed these freedoms to be vastly expanded.

The topic is extremely complex and one of the reasons code share became commonplace around the world was that it offered a way around the restrictions without the international community having to renegotiate a very complex set of rules.

Thus, for instance, my daughter recently flew Manchester to Aberdeen return on a Lufthansa ticket, bought in Leeds.

BMI supplied the aircraft, the flight had a BMI/UAL/DLH flight number and DLH picked up the bulk of the ticket price.

There are many instances of genuine fifth freedom rights but careful study of the OAG is necessary to find them.
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 3:39 pm

whoops i posted twice, sorry - my browser did something funky when I posted the first message.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 3:52 pm

i was wondering if there is a law against from say a foregin airline, for example JAL, from operating a domestic route

No, JAL operates a number of domestic routes such as NRT-ITM, KIX-CTS, etc..
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Superfly
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:03 pm

Let me ask you this.
Would you want to fly United or Delta from Berlin to Frankfort when you could fly Lufthansa?


BTW, what is this Delta 727 doing in Germany?


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AOMlover
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:15 pm

In France, Buzz operates domestic flights from different French cities (for example: Toulon-Bordeaux, Bae 146).
And we may consider the easyjet flight Nice-Geneva as a domestic flight, as when you arrive in the airport you are in the French part (this flight is considered as a schengen flight).
 
star_world
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 5:15 pm

B747-437B - yet again, you amaze us with your endless knowledge of the airline industry... of course an airline can operate domestic flights in its own country, there's no law or policy surrounding that. The question was why foreign (ie: based OUTSIDE the country) airlines cannot operate domestic routes.

Typically, this is one of the benefits that alliances offer - the ability for UA, for example, to fly SFO-LHR, and then use a code-share partner like BD to fly the domestic legs onwards from LHR to MAN, for example. UA would not get traffic rights from LHR-MAN by themselves.

star_world
 
garuda
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 8:30 pm

It depends also on the bilateral agreement between the two countries. PanAm had the monopoly on West Berlin routes before the sold the rights to Lufthansa (just before the unification).As far as I remeber PA had a hub in FRA (then Delta took over, this explains the DL 727 pic), and TWA had a hub in CDG.

Also there is some law regulating the domestic airlines, like in Indonesia, only Indonesian-registered planes (PK-xxx) are permitted to fly domestic routes. That's why Lion Air's Yak-42 (Russian registered) could not be deployed in domestic routes.

JA
 
lewis
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 10:14 pm

Countries wont give rights to protect local airlines. Take this for example:

Olympic flies ATH-YUL-YYZ but OA will not take passengers from YUL to YYZ.
Olympic flies ATH-BKK-MEL-SYD but OA will not take passengers from MEL to SYD.
 
backfire
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 11:20 pm

I think the word you're looking for is Cabotage...

We Europeans tend to lose our sense of humour over this little notion.
 
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Thu Jul 04, 2002 11:51 pm

There is a section in Canada's transportation laws that does allow foreign carriers to operate within Canada -- but only with the approval of the Minister of Transport.

I've never heard of any such approval being sought or given. It's probably only intended to be used in an urgent situation or as a playing card if a minister and an airline chief got into a war of nerves with each other.

 
travellin'man
Posts: 469
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Fri Jul 05, 2002 12:15 am

Within the confines of the US, there are laws governing who can fly domestically; as Backfire notes these are called cabotage laws. They all fall under the Jones Act, which dictates that any entity transporting people and/or cargo from any point within the US to another must be a United States owned and registered company. This applies not only to airplanes, but also to cargo ships and barges, buses, trains. For example a Qantas flight can drop people off from Sydney in LAX and then in JFK, but cannot pickup anyone in LAX who is getting off in JFK; they could only pick someone up who would be flying through to LHR.

Some airlines have 5th freedom rights in the US, which means that they can fly flights in and out of the country that do not originate and terminate in the country where that airline is registered, such as Iberia, which has a hub in Miami, and which flies there to and from Latin American destinations. They cannot fly origin and destination within the US, however.
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doug_or
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Fri Jul 05, 2002 1:12 am

can Iberia pick up a passenger form mia and take them latin america, or do they only offer this for connecting passengers?
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eugdog
Posts: 426
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Fri Jul 05, 2002 1:21 am

The EU permits airlines registered in other EU countries to operate freely with the EU. Easy Jet have a domestic French service serving Nice and Paris.

I wish this would extend every where as it would encourage more competition. Protecting national flag carriers has no place in modern free market economy. But both unions and the airlines themselves will fight tooht and nail to keep their own market. Free market principal do not stand a chance when narrow self interest is at stake!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Fri Jul 05, 2002 1:25 am

Iberia does not have 5th freedom. 5th freedom flights originate in the country of orgin for the airline, stop in country B (where passengers can be picked up/dropped off), and continue to country C. Iberia has 7th freedom, where a carrier from country A flies between Country B and Country C. None of Iberia's flights from MIA to Central America and Mexico originate in Spain.

Doug_or, with the exception of passengers going to San Salvador, Iberia can pick-up passengers going from MIA to Central America and Mexico.

7th freedom is not common in the US, and the only other two examples I can think of are LanChile's MIA-UIO-GYE and Aero Continente's MIA-GYE.
a.
 
philb
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Fri Jul 05, 2002 2:57 am

Garuda,

Pan Am DID NOT have the monopoly on flights to West Berlin.

Under the Four Power agreements at the end of WW2, Britain, France, the US and USSR divided Germany into zones and Berlin, as the capital, was similarly divided.

As Berlin lay well within the Russian zone and Stalin wanted to do his own thing with "his" part of Germany, he only agreed to air access to Berlin from the West by means of air corridors.

These were agreed along with a restriction that the corridors could only be used by aircraft registered in the US, Britain, France and, strangely, Poland.

Air France, BEA and Pan Am all served Berlin with scheduled services up to and beyond the end of the division of Germany.

From the early 1970s BEA and later BA operated flights for Air France under code shares.

Holiday flights were provided by British charter airlines, including Dan Air, and some American financed operations such as Air Berlinn, using American registered aircraft.

Immediately prior to the end of the division of Germany, a British company called Berlin UK European was serving Berlin from various points with Jetstream 31s.

After the re-unification, when Pan Am was in demise, Delta took over the Pan Am base at Frankfurt and offered connections from both London and Frankfurt to Berlin and other European destinations to connect with trans Atlantic flights.
 
jasewgtn
Posts: 771
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RE: Forgein Airline Cant Fly Domestic? Its A Law?

Fri Jul 05, 2002 6:00 am

However, some countries do have agreements that they can operate in each others countries.

Look at New Zealand. Qantas have full rights to fly any domestic routes they wish, and I beleive the same for Air NZ in Australia.

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