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Boeing: Throwing In The Towel?

Tue Jul 09, 2002 6:32 pm

......about 764?
I mean the A 332, the competetor, breaks ground all the time.
Simple as that! It´s only CA / DA that flyes her...and she is a beaty!
Michael/ SE

Not to provoke, just want you´re opinion!
Airbus SAS - Love them both
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RE: Boeing: Throwing In The Towel?

Tue Jul 09, 2002 6:58 pm

There is no reason for them to give it up. The 764 cost very little to develope, and is not costing them anything extra to continue offering it. It uses the same production line as the rest of the 767 line. I think the 764, more or less, is a niche aircraft. It has served two of their largest customers (Continental and Delta), maintaining them as customers instead of them going to Airbus for a replacement or adition to their fleet. The plane is great, and I hope both airlines continue to buy more.. along with others in the future. I love flying on it with Delta.
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RE: Boeing: Throwing In The Towel?

Tue Jul 09, 2002 7:48 pm

I think the B764 will get significant future orders, most likely from American carriers. But I don't see a good future for it in Europe or somewhere else. As a pure long haul aircraft it cannot compete with the A332 which offers more range and larger cargo space. Qantas, LTU, Air France and others, including many holiday carriers, have shown that with their A332 decisions. KLM will replace the B763 by B777s and A332, Alitalia will also most likely choose the A332 as it already flies with Eurofly.

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RE: Boeing: Throwing In The Towel?

Tue Jul 09, 2002 10:04 pm

Actually, the 764 wasn't all that inexpensive to develop since the modification to the wing and the new window line on the fuselage (rounded windows) required specific new tooling to run in parallel with the 762/763 line.

They missed the boat by not giving the bird an extra 1000 miles in range. Although, I'm not sure how they would have done that.

Clearly they have expected more sales than those recorded. It will be interesting to see who else will pick it up....
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RE: Boeing: Throwing In The Towel?

Tue Jul 09, 2002 10:09 pm

Nonetheless, since the 764 is a derivative it was cheaper than a new model. Boeing incurred costs which will bring the company some long term benefits in the form of an expanded product line and future sales. AA was interested at one time. I wonder if they will take another look.
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RE: Boeing: Throwing In The Towel?

Tue Jul 09, 2002 10:19 pm

It's a great plane, I flew on it with Delta between ATL and MCO.

I think it is slow to catch on. ATA could be a great candidate to use it as a replacement for the L1011 since the 753 isnt big enough to do so, although it would only be able to use the IND hub and not MDW, or do charters from other airports.

It could also be a good transcon for AA someday on high density routes from BOS to LAX or something.

I wouldnt be surprised if it got a few orders from the Asian airlines which have been loyal Boeing customers for high density short range routes.
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RE: Boeing: Throwing In The Towel?

Fri Jul 12, 2002 10:02 pm

Boeing puts itself in danger when it continues to see the 764 as a medium Haul aircraft.

On e.g. the Atlantic the 767 200/300ER was very succesfull for the last 15 yrs. BA, DL, AA, UA, KL, Co, AF, SAS etc.

Boeing should take care not to drive those customers further into the arms of Airbus while having a Sonic Cruiser Dream and postponing a new generation efficient 200-250 seater ..

Luckely they are experiencing a wake-up call, I heard
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
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RE: Boeing: Throwing In The Towel?

Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:01 am

Boeing hasn't thrown in the towel, they just have to get their act together. I just hope that Boeing does not end up like MD. The main reason MD lost the commercial market was that they never designed a new plane. They took old designs did some changes and tried to compete with planes designed on a clean sheet of paper. My fear is that the old MD management that now has high positions in Boeing will do just this.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
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RE: Boeing: Throwing In The Towel?

Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:36 am

LMP737, that is a concern, but I think Boeing is more committed to compete than McDonnell (as opposed to Douglas) was. Airpower magazine's Jan. 2002 article on the DC-10 has this to say:

"By 1974, the Douglas old guard had either retired or moved on to different companies and the McDonnell family now dominated the company's executive committee. They mandated that no new design work would commence on any derivative airplanes until the DC-10 Program broke even.

" Although both of these designs [Twin-10 and 380-passenger DC-10 Stretch to challenge the 747] generated a fair amount of interest from prospective airline customers, various limitations in Douglas's manpower and production resources, coupled with the continuous restrictions from the St. Louis corporate headquarters, made it impossible to proceed. Regarding these strategic decisions, it was admitted by the McDonnell family in later years that they never really understood the intricacies of the commercial airplane market, and never really listened to any of the Long Beach people who did, thus the Douglas half of the company was bound to suffer."

So, I'm hopeful that the Boeing management has learned the lessons of Douglas's bitter strangulation at the hands of McDonnell.
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RE: Boeing: Throwing In The Towel?

Sat Jul 13, 2002 4:50 am


I hope your correct. Since a lot of former MD execs are now high up in Boeing I'm just worried that they will try and run Boeing like they did MD.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
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RE: Boeing: Throwing In The Towel?

Sat Jul 13, 2002 5:28 am

Boeing did have a planned 767-400ERX with a larger fuel capacity and more powerful engines to recover the range lost from the 767-300ER. The engines, however, were tied to the 747X program and when Boeing suspended that, the 767-400ERX effort was also put on hold. Without this variant, I doubt the -400 can truly be competitive with the A330-200. The raked wingtips are a great innovation to increase performance while maintaining DC-10/L1011 gate commonality but the aircraft is too short on range and cargo space for too many carriers. I'd like to think, however, that it still has a future.
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RE: Boeing: Throwing In The Towel?

Sat Jul 13, 2002 7:12 am

The 764 should be a 772 that can hold a max of 300.
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