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Fly-K
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747 With Fifth Engine

Tue Jul 09, 2002 10:03 pm

A week ago the spotters in FRA were treated to a special sight when a South African B747-200 came in with a fifth engine under the wing. It was ferried in for a company B747-300 that was stranded in FRA:

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Photo © Konstantin von Wedelstaedt



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Photo © Konstantin von Wedelstaedt


Now I didn't know this was still common practice, I've only seen it on older photos, just like these ones here:

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Photo © AirNikon



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Photo © Jörg Tegen


And it seems that it is only possible with the older JT9-powered 747s (as they have a smaller engine diameter).
Do you think the aircraft was able to do the JNB-FRA trip nonstop? How much would the extra fuel consumption be? And would they do it on a regular pax flight? If it was a pure ferry, wouldn't it be more economical to put the engine on a regular full freighter? And finally, interesting that there was no JT9 available in Europe. (Well, IB is the only remaining carrier with JT9-powered 747s in Europe?.
Questions over questions, maybe you can contribute your ideas or some facts.

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
AMSMAN
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Tue Jul 09, 2002 10:16 pm

Correct me if im wrong but wasn't there a post on this topic already regarding a "third" or "fifth" engine??

Wasn't it all just a bit of digital mastery as in someone is doctoring the photos???

AMS
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Spacepope
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Tue Jul 09, 2002 10:45 pm

No, this is not a digital trick, they really do fly in extra engines this way. I also believe that the L-1011 can be fitted with a fourth engine for this purpose as well. There are photos of this on this site, but I'm too lazy to do a search. Passengers are allowed on these flights. Incedentally, the Indian 747 that was bombed back in the 80's was one of these flights carrying the extra engine. If you look at the casualty toll, it clearly indicates that passengers were on board.

And OK I lied, here's the L-1011 with the spare engine.

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Photo © Christos Psarras

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Fly-K
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Tue Jul 09, 2002 10:56 pm

AMSMAN are you trying to tell me that I digitally altered my own photos and then post this topic here? Have you noticed that there are two other photographers who have uploaded photos of the same aircraft the same day and it still has five engines?

Thanks, Spacepope, for the more constructive input, I didn't know about either the AI 747 with the fifth engine nor about the L1011.

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
Ljungdahl
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 12:46 am

...and here's another one...

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Photo © Johan Ljungdahl


...Johan... Big grin
 
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Fly-K
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 12:49 am

So far, all JT9-powered... (incl the Air-India)
Seems to prove my "theory".

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 12:55 am

I guess these photos don't really speak well for the JT9's reliability!  Big grin
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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777236ER
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 12:55 am


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Photo © Don Boyd



These are RB211s. So it's not just the old JT9s

Your bone's got a little machine
 
broke
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:20 am

To have the ability to carry an extra engine on an airplane, the buyer must have that feature incorporated into the airplane during production. It is not available on the standard airplane by any manufacturer, since it requires extra structural elements to installed inside the wing to be able to pick-up the loads from the stub pylon. Some operators want it and others don't.
 
AviationIvi
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:52 am

I have also digitally altered my photos before uploading them Big grin Big grin Big grin

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Photo © Ivica Ramljak - FRA Spotting



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Photo © Ivica Ramljak - FRA Spotting



Ivica
 
japanguy
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:59 am

I actually flew an NW 742 from NRT to HKG with a 5th engine. It was back in 1995 and it blew my mind.

Incidentally, the 5th engine was on the inside left wing, close to the fuselage. That appears to be the same location on all the pictures above of the 747s. Is there a reason for that/
 
NZ767
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 2:12 am

Closer to COG (Centre of Gravity) Japanguy.
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 3:48 am

The technical term for it is "fifth pod ops". Only the Classic 747s offer this and it is an option, not a standard feature.
 
777236ER
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 3:54 am

Ex_SQer.........
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Classics only?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:16 am

777236ER:

You got me there! SQ didn't opt for 5th pod with its -400s and for some reason I must have thought that Boeing didn't offer it!

Note to self:
The world doesn't revolve around SQ.
The world doesn't revolve around SQ.
The world doesn't revolve around SQ.

Writing that on my whiteboard even as we speak  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

 
744rules
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 5:27 am

On all 747 you can still see the underwing attach points (it shows Spare Engine Mount) . To bad I have no good camera. Is it an option or not ??
 
japanguy
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 5:49 am

OK, I get the COG part of it, but why the left side? Flip of a coin?
 
Leezyjet
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:42 am

Japanguy,

My guess would be that the engineers can fit it without hindering the loading that goes on on the starboard (right) side.

I saw that special coloured SAA 743 at LHR about 2 years ago with a 5th pod.

I would imagine that it is cheaper for the airline to ferry their own engine in and have it fitted rather than pay out to lease one/buy one from elsewhere. Also it doesn't actually take all that long to change an engine, and I know that SAA usually run with their delays (at LHR they do) rather than send the pax on other airlines/flights so they usually end up with about a 12-18 hour delay by doing this, as the new engine would arrive on one of the first flights the next morning, meaning that the new engine could be inplace for an afternoon departure.


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philb
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:51 am

VC10s were also equipped for fifth pod ops and I seem to remember that the engine was carried on the port side. Because of the configuration of the VC10, the engine was in a streamlined pod hung under and to to front of the wing.

Fifth pod ops carry passengers - that's the whole point - to get an engine from A to B with the least cost and fuss. There are weight/performance penalties but these are far cheaper than using a freighter.
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 9:50 am

Just to add: SQ didn't opt for 5th pod with their 744s because they were building up a fleet of 744 freighters, and diverting a 744F to deliver an engine was the preferred option to operating a fleet of 744s with that option... and their associated maintenance/engineering requirements
 
Mr AirNZ
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 10:37 am

The technical term for it is "fifth pod ops". Only the Classic 747s offer this and it is an option, not a standard feature

If this is the case why then have I seen a Qantas 747-400 carrying the 5th engine. (Im off to look for a photo now).
 
Mr AirNZ
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 10:43 am

Here is a SAA 747-444 carrying a fith engine.

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Photo © Don Boyd

 
justplanesmart
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 2:18 pm

I recall seeing a photo of a Qantas 707 with a fifth engine, also on the port wing inboard of the engine mounts. The spare was mising the fan shroud, and had a streamlined pod in its place. I cannot remember where I saw the picture.
"So many planes; so little time..."
 
Mr.BA
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:40 pm

Qantas always does this. There have been numerous incidents involving Qantas B747s and QF does always ferry a fith engine to replace it. I've seen it a few times in Singapore. The B744s can ferry the fith pod too.
Boeing747 万岁!
 
Mr.BA
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:46 pm

Boeing747 万岁!
 
9V-SVA
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RE: 747 With Fifth Engine

Wed Jul 10, 2002 6:11 pm

When 9V-SQC's RR Trent 884 engine went tech about 3-4 years ago in Karachi, SIA sent up a 744F carrying a spare engine, tools and crew up to KHI to replace the engine.

Since SIA has such a large fleet of freighters, they might as well send one up instead of retrofitting all its 744s with that option(costs $0

9V-SVA
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