bobcat
Posts: 1141
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:28 pm

How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allowed)

Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:02 pm

How fast can the Concorde fly JFK-LAX?
(if allowed to do so... I realize it's unlikely)
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 1820
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allowed)

Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:32 pm

By, "If allowed" do you mean supersonic mach 2.2? Because that isn't allowed.

Being allowed to fly accross the US would probably depend on it not exceeding mach 1.0 and since it's Stage II only, certain airports lifting some restrictions for it to operate there.

So do you mean allowed operations wise, or operataions wise and supersonic wise?

Oh my, I might have confused more than I helped!
George
They're not handing trophies out today
 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allowed)

Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:37 pm

He meant if allowed to fly at maximum speed.
 
strickerje
Posts: 706
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 1:35 pm

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allo

Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:38 pm

I think he just means if it was allowed to fly the whole way at its typical supersonic cruising speed (which I'm pretty sure is Mach 2.0, 1330 miles per hour at 57,000 feet).

So let's consult Great Circle Mapper (http://gc.kls2.com/), shall we? (I love this website!)

The Great Circle Mapper says 1:52, which is a very rough estimate since it doesn't take into account the time to takeoff and climb or the prevailing wind (JFK-LAX is against the wind). So it's a bit more complicated than you probably hoped, but I hope this info helps anyway.

-Jeffrey
 
9V-SVA
Posts: 1747
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 3:54 pm

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allowed)

Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:43 pm

It cannot fly over Mach 1 overland. Ops wise it has the range to do JFK-LAX.

9V-SVA
9V-SVA | B772ER
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allowed)

Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:59 pm

Using DUAT, I came up with 2:23. This takes the current winds into account, but it made the assumption that the aircraft would climb and descend to/from FL570 at 250 knots before accelerating/decellerating to/from 1330 knots, which probably wouldn't exactly be the case. Of course this doesn't take traffic flow / possible weather delays into consideration.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
broke
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:04 pm

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allowed)

Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:50 pm

Years ago Braniff number 1 had a route sharing with British Airways in which a Braniff crew would fly the Concorde from JFK to DFW and return. The maximum speed that they could fly, on this route, was Mach .95.
 
vc10
Posts: 1352
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allowed)

Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:55 pm

I know it is not Lax but it might give you a feel for the time JFK to Lax

On 3rd August 1996 a Concorde did a round trip New York-Phoenix-New York
cruising at a subsonic speed of Mach 0.95

JFK to Phoenix took 4hrs and 19 minutes chock to chock
Phoenix to JFK took 4hrs and 2minutes chock to chock

JFK -LAX is some 300 miles further so would take approx an extra 30 mins

So my best guess is that Concorde at subsonic speed would take
4.50 chock to chock JFK-LAX

I also have a note that the old VC-10 when it flew JFK- LAX would take about
5hrs 50 mins chock to chock cruising at Mach 0.86, I just wonder how that compares to modern subsonic times

regards little vc10
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6877
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allo

Fri Jul 12, 2002 12:18 am

I would assume if Mach 2.2 was reached, then it would be able to do the route in 2-2.5 hours. The winds don't make a big difference with Concorde, since JFK-LHR is 3h55 and LHR-JFK is 3h55. Comparitively, BA's 777 on JFK-LHR is 7h05 and LHR-JFK is 7h40. It depends on how fast the plane goes (if you push it to max cruise speed or fly at economy cruise speed), as a BA Concorde has done JFK-LHR (or vice versa) in 2h31.

Jeff
 
flightsimfreak
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2000 9:36 am

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allowed)

Fri Jul 12, 2002 2:03 am

Quick question about the mach 1 over land rule... If you are flying at a speed that is faster than mach one at altitude, but slower than mach 1 at ground level, then the sonic boom will not be heard or felt. This is true... can the Concorde fly at some sub sonic at ground level but supersonic at altitude speed?
 
shaun3000
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:10 pm

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allowed)

Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:27 am

No... because at its altitude it is supersonic so it will make a sonic boom. That will then travel to the ground and be very loud and scare people.

ANd flying at 600 kts at a lower altitude, where it is no super sonic, would do no good as it would be very inefficient fuel-wise. It can't travel as fast at lower altitudes due to the thickness of the air. Its gound speed would be slower and it would use more fuel trying to push it thorugh the thicker air. At 57,000 feet the air is much thinner so it requires LESS thrust to keep it at a HIGHER speed and uses LESS fuel and its ground speed is then much higher.

SO, to answer your question, no, it would not be economical nor as fast as up being supersonic at 57,000.
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allo

Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:31 am

FlightSim:

Yes, indeed, that's why it's measured on Mach numbers and not on Indicated Air Speed (IAS). Also, all the nasty aerodynamic behaviour is based on speed relative to Mach 1 (tuck, for example), so at higher altitudes it's the only important airspeed.

"Standard" airliners do the same thing. You can fly a 757 at a far higher speed at altitude than at sea level.

Someone else probably knows the specifics of IAS = M1.0. I think it's somewhere around 340 knots indicated (KIAS) at 41,000'. I do know offhand that 575 KIAS at 70,000' is Mach 3.0 in standard conditions.

Steve
 
mls515
Posts: 2955
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2000 5:56 am

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allowed)

Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:56 am

FlightSimFreak-

I think what you have in mind is that the groundspeed can be supersonic without a sonic boom if the airspeed is subsonic but the airspeed + the tailwind totals supersonic speed.
 
Bellerophon
Posts: 522
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 10:12 am

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allowed)

Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:53 am

Bobcat

An interesting question. I think Vc10 is spot on subsonic, and for what they are worth, my estimates are:

Unrestricted: JFK-LAX 2h 05m airborne / 2h 30m schedule
USA speeds: JFK-LAX 4h 20m airborne / 4h 45m schedule

Jhooper

Not a bad guess, but 250 kts up to FL 570 would be much too slow for Concorde at altitude - as I think you suspected.

The lowest authorised speed (VLA) is 250 kts up to FL410 and 300 kts thereafter, however even these speeds are far below the optimum climb speeds.

If we assume no speed restrictions whatsoever - a big assumption - Concorde’s optimum climb profile would be to achieve 400kts IAS by 5,000 ft, climb at that IAS to around FL320, accelerate to reach 530kts IAS by FL440, climb at that IAS until achieving Mach 2.0, at around FL510, which it would then maintain, in a cruise climb, up to FL600.

DeltAirlines

Again, I wouldn’t disagree with your estimate, but the maximum cruise Mach number for Concorde is Mach 2.0, and Concorde has never done 2h 31m across the Atlantic.

To date, the fastest Atlantic crossing achieved by Concorde, was on the 07 Feb 1996, Capt Les Scott, JFK-LHR, 2h 52m 59s.

Having talked to the crew about the unusually favourable conditions pertaining on that day, the winds and temperatures, the runways in use, and, perhaps most of all, the invaluable help from ATC on both sides of the pond, this is probably unbeatable.

Probably!  Big grin

Regards

Bellerophon

 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: How Fast Can The Concorde Fly JFK-LAX?(if Allo

Fri Jul 12, 2002 8:05 am

Some interesting points of speed comparison.

The SR-71 once flew between NYC and London back in 1974 in 1 hour 54 minutes, an average speed of 1745 miles per hour, or about 2.6 Mach

In 1990, an SR-71 flew from BUR to IAD in 67 minutes. This was a full-blown, get special clearance maximum performance flight. I was still leaving just five miles from BUR almost directly under the departure path and I remember seeing the SR-71 streak off at maximum afterburner. They landed at IAD as hot as possible.

Given then averaged M3.2 for the entire trip, that's about as fast as it will ever be done. The only other aircraft which had that kind of range and performance was the XB-70, which was never 'production' enough for such attempts (a specific B-70 issue was that you couldn't retard below full military power in supersonic flight).

Steve

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos