United Airline
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Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:33 pm

I suppose Australia has the highest Safety Standards, as well as the BEST safety Record in the World.

There wasn't a SINGLE fatal accident happened in the past in Australia (Correct me if I am wrong). Furthermore, Qantas, Ansett Australia, as well as Virgin Blue; NEVER had a single fatal accident in the past. And they maintain their aircraft up to a very high standard.

I am sure New Zealand, USA, as well as Canada have high safety standards as well. So as Europe.

What are your thoughts?
 
The Coachman
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:45 pm

Australia's getting worse, with the bureaucratic red-tape that's going on...

There have been PLENTY of fatal accidents in Australia. One junior pilot ran out of petrol, Whyalla Airlines or something, that plane crashed, that among others...

No place is immune from accidents...
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
Mr AirNZ
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:50 pm

Aren't you forgetting private and small airlines. It's not just the majors that have accidents.
 
United Airline
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 5:09 pm

Thanks for the info. Nevertheless, Australia has very high safety standards, one of the best in the World if not the best.

Qantas is immune from any fatal accidents. So as Ansett Australia and Virgin Blue.

 
United Airline
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 5:20 pm

There wasn't a SINGLE fatal accident happened in the past in Australia (Correct me if I am wrong).

Sorry I mean main trunk routes. But still, they have one of the best safety records in the World if not the best.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Guest

RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 5:40 pm

United Airline,

Yes Australia does have an enviable safety record, but we also had one of the tightest regulatory environments in the world too. With deregulation and the changes from Quality Control v's quality assurance I think it's only a matter of time before something major happens.

Airlines are really only required to operate to "Worlds Best Practice" (international standards) which sounds to people as the "best" when in actual fact it is the barest minimum of practice.

Thankfully QF (and probably due to the unions more than anything else) maintain their aircraft to an exceptional standard as they well know the cost to the carriers reputation should a fatal jet accident occur.

You also have to take into account that the Australian skies are relatively *easy* to navigate and rarely have bad weather to contend with. The current operational standards at Sydney airport were virging on dangerous (share the noise flightpaths) until the demise of AN which cut traffic tremendously.

I certainly hope that we do not suffer from a jet accident of any proportion as the resultant public outcry and investigation will no doubt be damning. Average aussies curiously enough have always thought that flying in this country was as safe as houses and we have the latest and most up to date planes (which is clearly not true).

Cheers mate,


mb
 
L-188
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 5:45 pm

I am willing to bet that Lichtenstien has a better airline safety record then Australia.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
philb
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 5:46 pm

QANTAS is NOT immune from fatal accidents although their last was around 50 years ago and they were EXTREMELY lucky with the outcome of the BKK accident a few years ago.

No carrier is immune. Mechanical failure, human error or weather can cause an accident at any time. A carrier, even a country, can go a long way to reduce the risk but - as I've posted here many times over they last few years - ANY safety comparison is flawed unless the operating conditions for the airlines concerned are, at least, reasonably similar.

QANTAS has a good record because it has, even today, a relatively long average sector length, long turn round times, on average fewer rotations and a relatively small number of aircraft and its passenger mileage is low.

If we are going to compare apples and pears, Southwest would win hands down as its sectors are relatively short, it has very short turn round times, short sector lengths and a large fleet and its passenger mileage is high.

People always used to point to Aeroflot as an example of a poor safety record. Now they point to other Russian airlines and Chinese carriers whilst totally ignoring the very different operating conditions, type of transport system in use and massive differences in terrain and climate encountered compared to any single airline in the US or Western Europe.
 
United Airline
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 5:51 pm

I agree with you Mx5boy. And by the way, did you manage to find Photos of the Interior of AN's B 747-300s?


The current operational standards at Sydney airport were virging on dangerous (share the noise flightpaths) until the demise of AN which cut traffic tremendously.

I thought QF and DJ have filled up a large part of the gap left by AN.


Thankfully QF (and probably due to the unions more than anything else) maintain their aircraft to an exceptional standard as they well know the cost to the carriers reputation should a fatal jet accident occur.

I agree. QF is the OLDEST Airline among all airlines in English Speaking Countries. QF maintains their aircraft up to an exceptional standard. So did AN. So does DJ.  Smile


L-188,

LOL. But why?
 
United Airline
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 5:54 pm

QANTAS is NOT immune from fatal accidents although their last was around 50 years ago and they were EXTREMELY lucky with the outcome of the BKK accident a few years ago.

50 Years ago? When was that? What happened?

I don't think QF ever had a single fatal accident. They maintain their aircraft up to a very high standard.

Regards.

 
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VapourTrails
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RE: Australia's Major Airline's Safety Record

Sun Jul 14, 2002 6:12 pm

United Airline,

Yes, Australia has a very good safety record which of course we are proud of, but please don't say that Qantas is immune from any fatal accidents. So as Ansett Australia and Virgin Blue. No country, airline or aircraft is immune from any fatal accidents, as you put it. That is just not being realistic. Safety has to be maintained to a very high standard by all involved and not fall to a level where a blasé attitude starts to take over, with a presumption of a 'they don't crash' type of thinking.

High price of Qantas cost-cutting
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1296000/1296178.stm

From Australia. Qantas - Spirit of Australia.
 
L-188
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 6:14 pm

Well, to be honest, Santa Marino may have a better aviation safety record then Lichtenstein.

But I am not sure  Big thumbs up
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United Airline
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 6:16 pm

What I mean is...... They never had a single accident in the past.

Let's just hope for the best for Qantas. Cost Cutting in such a way is not very wise is it?  Smile
 
United Airline
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 6:17 pm

Fatal Accident I mean.....
 
manuel
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 6:53 pm

This topic reminds me of an accident in which a QF 744 was involved. The plane was severely damaged while landing at Rome Fiumicino a couple years back and despite the plane being an insurance write-off, QF repaired it just so their safety record remains immaculate......
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 7:08 pm


Except the latest EgyptAir crash,which reasons remain unknown till the moment,Tunisia has never had a tragic accident !!!
 
philb
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 7:25 pm

Sorry United, my typo, should have been "around 70 years ago" not "around 50 years ago".

Read: "Air Crash: The Story of How Australia's Airways Were Made Safe." which details fatal QANTAS accidents and also Terry Denham's
"World Directory of Airline Crashes" lists these also.

As to comparing QANTAS with other airlines since WW2, "The Final Call: Why Airline Disasters Continue to Happen" has the following very telling piece:

"Qantas is always quoted as the safest. Well, maybe. But it would take Qantas a quarter of a century to fly as much as United does in a year! UAL had about one accident every four years-that's one accident every four and a half million departures. On that basis, to match the UAL record, Qantas would have one fatal accident every thirty-two years, and would have to fly something like 128 years to equal UAL's exposure to date."
 
airnewzealand
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 7:40 pm

I think New Zealand and Australia have great safety records, but Australia being the exception!!

Cheers
Mike
 
duff
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 9:09 pm

United Airline

I think a more suitable title to the post would be "Which country's major airlines have the best safety record".

You would have to investigate Airline, GA, Military ops to answer the question you have posed.

 
manni
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:41 pm

Belgium will be high up that list aswell.
Whoever mentioned the US should have a look at air disaster.com and do a bit of search work.
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eugdog
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:30 am

A silly discussion as the country with the biggest air travel business is going to have more accidents then smaller countries. How can you compare Belgium with the US!!

Australia benefits from excellent weather, low traffic movements and excellent training!
 
United Airline
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:38 am

US has high safety standards as well. But I think Australia is just as good if not better.  Smile

Sorry United, my typo, should have been "around 70 years ago" not "around 50 years ago".

The plane was severely damaged while landing at Rome Fiumicino a couple years back and despite the plane being an insurance write-off, QF repaired it just so their safety record remains immaculate......

What happened?

 
philb
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:32 am

United Airline,

Instead of asking others to do your research, perhaps you could trawl a few web sites, read a few books, look up old newspaper and magazines on microfiche - the bog standard way of learning those of us who know a little have used over the years.

It would improve your knowledge no end and have the added benefit of giving you less time to post statements which are either not based on fact or have no standard against which they can be corelated.
 
Guest

RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:27 am

PhilB,

Are you forgetting QF flies around 85% of Australia's domestic market including high frequency short sectors?

mb
 
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:25 am


When ever people talk about safety in airlines there is always some theory to say why it is the particluar airline has such a good record. Anyway I do not think that the nation of Trinidad and Tobago has one of the best safety records with no fatal accidents ( i might be wrong). The nation's airline BWIA also has a number one saftey record with no fatal accidents for over 60 years. The airline began operations in 1940.
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bells
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:42 am

This is a pointless argument.

It is impossible to rate how safe a country's airlines are based on the number of accidents, because accidents are so rare they are not statistically representative (with very few exceptions).

A classic example is Concorde, which for many years was seen as one of the world's "safest" aircraft because it never crashed, then after one accident statistically it became by far the most dangerous aircraft in the world because there are only a few in service.

Air travel markets like Australia are so small you can't say they have the least chance of suffering an accident in future just because they haven't had one before.

In fact, on a fatalities per kilometre basis, we can say North America and the European Union are the safest countries by far because their airlines carry so many more passengers than any other countries.

Of course they are very safe even though they have a higher number of actual accidents than some other countries because of the sheer volume of traffic.

To argue a small country like Lichtenstein is the safest because it hasn't had an accident (does it have an airport?) is nonsensical.
 
Spark
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:54 am

Judging safety by determine what countries have the least fatal accidents is a little bit like judging Poker Players by who has the most flushes!
It just isn't an accurate determination of the safety record of a country (although an airline that continually is involved in fatal accidents may not just be snake bitten (CAL)).
As far as the safety in countries, I feel very safe flying to virtually any country in the world, and with most airlines.
P.S. Although the US has a good safety record, considering it has nearly half (I'm not sure) of world's airline traffic, and is an exceptionally busy air space (LA & NY) there are examples that put it below Australia. The big one I'm thinking of is the Valujet crash, which was an example of a low-cost airline cutting cost with maintainence expenses. That is the price of derugulation!
 
United Airline
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:17 am

I doubt ANSETT AUSTRALIA ever had an accident in the past 65 years.

Air travel markets like Australia are so small you can't say they have the least chance of suffering an accident in future just because they haven't had one before.

Yes. Comparing with USA/EU, Australia is definitely a MUCH SMALLER Aviation Market. But it is not as small as you think. They also have high load routes like SYD-MEL.

I remember reading an article that AN's B 767s actually had the highest cycles in the World (They were mainly used on SYD-MEL).

Regards.
 
v jet
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:51 am

To quote Manuel
"This topic reminds me of an accident in which a QF 744 was involved. The plane was severely damaged while landing at Rome Fiumicino a couple years back and despite the plane being an insurance write-off, QF repaired it just so their safety record remains immaculate......"

Sorry Manuel all this is factually incorrect. You did get right that it was at FCO however. The aircraft was taxiing for takeoff. It was a 743.
A landing gear component if my memory serves me correctly without doing a search for the report, had a flaw in the metal. The aircraft was not severely
damaged and it was nowhere near a write off.
So much incorrect stuff get posted on this board!
 
United Airline
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:10 pm

Rome is often served by a B 747-300.

So did they repair that aircraft? I suppose so......
 
philb
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:59 pm

1. I didn't forget the QANTAS involvement in 85% of the Australian domestic market.

2. The QANTAS aircraft that should have been written off but was repaired was the 747 damaged at BKK. This should have been the first QANTAS hull loss since the Constellation in 1960. Against all the odds, no passenger was killed in either accident.

3. The point made above about Concorde is well made. I made it at the time of the Concorde accident which changed the aircraft from a non-accident type into one of the most horrendously dangerous aircraft at a stroke. So much for lies, damned lies and statistics!

4. As I noted in my last post, this type of question can only be answered if a norm can be set and standards thereafter can be corelated. This is exceedingly difficult to do.

A comparison between QANTAS and Aer Arran would be ludicrous but Aer Arran (operates 2 Islanders, 2 ATR 42 and 2 ATR 72 and has been flying for over 30 years) is safer if you look at raw figures, because it has never lost either a passenger or a hull - QANTAS has.

Comparing QANTAS to Virgin Atlantic over the last 18 years is an easier job, but VS has operated more types in that period (some in their colours by other operators) and, again has a better hull loss/injury record but has a differeent operating environment.

The only way to make a value judgement is on comparing an airline against its own previous performance, then see how its performance compares with a similar airline in a similar environment - not against the world as a whole.
 
manuel
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:12 pm

sorry v-jet, I mixed the incident up with the BKK one, I'll do a better research next time. I have flown QF on the Narita-Cairns leg and I felt very safe.....:o
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:51 pm

Some facts:

post WWII, 62 airliners were lost in Australia.

29 of these accidents resulted in loss of life.

The worst accident was the loss of aTAA F27 in 1960, 29 dead.

The last airliner crash was in 2001, a Cessna 208.

The only jet to be lost was an RAAF 707, in 1991, 5 dead.

Ansett lost a couple of airliners post WWII: a DC3 in 46, an S25 in 52, a DC3 in 56, a Viscount in 61, an S25 in 63, an F27 in 65, a Viscount in 66, an F27 in 71 and a Dash 8 in 95. Plus there were a DC3 and a Skyvan lost in 72 by "Ansett Airlines of PNG" - don´t know if that´s the same airline. Oh, the Dash 8 was Ansett NZ, so it´s your choice whether you want to count all Ansetts or purely Ansett Australia.

Daniel
 
Leo
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:57 pm

So the conclusion is: As was already indicated - Statistics can be misleading.
 
United Airline
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RE: Which Country Has The Best Safety Record?

Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:38 pm

Ansett yes. But not Ansett Australia.  Smile

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