racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:03 am

A PAC B741 chartered for the USAF faced a full loss of all flight deck instruments after it departed Ramstein AFB last week. According to the FAZ, the plane wanted to fly to an AFB in the USA and carried tons of rockets and other high-explosive stuff. As soon as the plane declared emergency, two US F16s took off to escort the plane. The plane couldn't return to Ramstein, because of heavy thunderstorms in the area. The pilot asked the ATC to land in Frankfurt, and was then asked by the ATC if the planes carries radioactive or other dangerous cargo - the Pilot said that he doesn't want to answer because of his military status. (lovely) When the plane was about 25 miles away from FRA, the weather over Ramstein became better and the pilot immediately decided to fly to Ramstein.
Sources at FRA said that "a crash with that plane would not only have destroyed the airport..."

A USAF spokeswoman denied the facts that the plane was carrying rockets and that it wanted to fly to FRA. Spokesmen of the Airport and the DFS (Deutsche Flugsicherung, German ATC) confirmed that the plane was going to land in FRA.

The FAZ is usually very well informed.

Lovely that the USAF flies rockets and other high-explosives with old 747-100s and that the pilot didn't cooperate with the ATC. (They wouldn't have let him land in FRA if they knew what he was carrying)

It's time the USAF finally leaves FRA, first those incidents with their "I don't care about SIDs and STARs" C5/C17 pilots and now this incident.

 
Leo
Posts: 308
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RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 4:04 am

The ElAl B747-200F that crashed into appartment buildings in Amsterdam in 1993 carried lots of Israeli military equipment. Even AFTER the crash ELAL would not tell authorities what was on the airplane, while uranium was known to be onboard.
 
KFRG
Posts: 353
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RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfai

Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:51 am

Welcome to today's world Racko, enjoy....
 
Boeing727
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 8:42 am

Don't be so wacko Racko, I always enjoyed the USAF in FRA - great aircraft to spot.

Boeing727
 
Guest

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 8:45 am

I wonder if that 747-100 was once owned by Tower Air!!!
 
NZ767
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 9:17 am

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 8:52 am

Can someone fill me in on this one?

"I don't care about SIDs and STARs" C5/C17 pilots and now this incident.

What's this all about?
I haven't heard of it.  Smile

 
DE727UPS
Posts: 810
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 10:55 am

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:23 pm

Well....I'm only guessing here....but I've flown Transport Catagory aircraft in Europe before...and I know the SIDs out of Cologne are overly complicated for noise abatement....they take it way to seriously over there. I would guess that Racko has experience or knowledge of the USAF refusing to fly them.
 
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yyz717
Posts: 15689
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RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:58 pm

the Pilot said that he doesn't want to answer because of his military status. (lovely)

It's time the USAF finally leaves FRA


There seems to be a mild anti-US flavour here. Which is fine.....this is, after all, an av discussion forum.

Well, I'm not American, but I will make the following note: Germans should be grateful for the US presence on German soil for the following reasons:
1. It was the US (among others) that liberated Germany from Nazism.
2. It was the US that prevented the Soviets from occupying all of Germany.
3. It was US tax dollars (via the Marshall plan) that rebuilt Germany after the war.

I'm not seeing too much German appreciation for how much the US has done for Germany in this thread.







I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
744rules
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2002 3:34 am

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 4:23 pm

@yyz717

Note that all europeans are thankfull for what they did during WW2, but that does not give them the right to ignore the rules 50yrs later. Seems they are anticipating on their actions with the un blue helmets, as they wanted full immunity for their troops .
 
TriStar500
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RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 4:32 pm

BTW - the USAF will leave FRA by 2004/5, with the new Terminal 3 (designed by Sir Norman Foster) on the site of the Rhine Main Airbase supposed to go into service by 2007. Since we are doing a lot of projects for Fraport, we already have the zoning plan for the future airport here. Big grin

Fraport, the Federal goverment and the State of Hesse are paying a lot of money for the extension of Ramstein AB, so that the USAF can move their operations from FRA to the aforementioned site.

Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
D-aqui
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:16 pm

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:17 pm

@ Yyz717

Yes, this is an aviation forum. And therefore I consider the notion to mix up history and the obvious violation of rules inappropriate.

Nobody in Germany would deny what the US have done to save Europe from Nazi dictatorship and slavery as well as the communist threat, and nobody will either forget the help provided under the Marshall plan aid (although there were also some other plans that should not be forgotten, like the Morgenthau plan...). Sorry, I got historical as well, so back to the facts:

The captain of an airliner with a major problem refusing to unveil whether he has any dangerous goods on board, attempting to get into one of the busiest civil airports in Europe is a bit awkward, if not even criminal. Although I am glad that this incident did not turn into something worse such a question as asked by ATC is also aimed at instructing the intervention services on the ground and informing them about the possible risk during fire-fighting etc.

Therefore trying to deny this vital information is unprofessional to say the least, if not even stupid.

Furthermore, as a German citizen and former naval officer I am a 'bit surprised that the transport of such goods is not left to the US military that is equipped and well-trained to handle such goods.

d-aqui

 
hawkeye2
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 5:24 pm

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:37 pm

In case someone forgot, FRA is a joint military and civil use airport (Rhein-Main AB) and military traffic is within their right to land there.
 
D-aqui
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:16 pm

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 7:03 pm

@ Hawkeye2

Yes Sir,

I do not think that anybody forgot that FRA/EDDF still is a joint civil/military base - The Gateway to Europe. And I have to admit I always like particularly like to see (and hear) the C5's climbing out of FRA.

@Racko

Which FAZ source was this anyway? I did not find anything on the net about the incident?
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 7:17 pm

There was a short notice in the Sunday FAZ. Plus a slightly more elaborate piece in the hr3 TV evening news, including an interview with Mr. Fongern (now, that guy is just ubiquitous, isn´t he?  Wink/being sarcastic ) That was Saturday or Friday, iirc.

Daniel Smile
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 8:32 pm

Airsicknessbag, I can't remember anything related to aviation in the press without a statement of Mr. Fongern  Laugh out loud Even my girlfriend, who is absolutely interested in aviation, asked after the Midair "Wo bleibt denn der Fongern?".  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

D-aqui, there was a big article in the Saturday FAZ, but I think their articles disappear very fast on their web page.

Hawkeye2, yes but there were not many USAF planes here pre-11.9.. And those were flown by very expierenced pilots who had absolutely no problems with the procedures.

Yyz717, I and nearly all other Germans are very thankful what the USA did for us after the WW2. But that does not mean they can do anything they want, and risking to blow up to blow thousands of people away doesn't seem too nice to me.

NZ767, after the 11.9. many pilots failed to follow the SIDs and STARs in FRA, mixed up the runways 25L and 25R, crossed the way of other airliners etc.
For example there was a C5 flying over Trebur (a little town ~20km away from FRA) in 400ft - you can imagine what the inhabitants of that town thought. I think they were not refusing to use them, they were just unable. Probably they came from AFBs in the USA and have never flown a SID or STAR (I don't know if they have these procedures at the AFBs)

 
clipperno1
Posts: 641
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 1999 12:47 am

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 8:57 pm

Many here in Germany wonder about how old the 741 was...well I guess most Galaxys are older and have carried a lot more s*** over our heads so far.
If it is so dangerous, why don't they ship it by sea?
"I really don't know one plane from the other. To me they are just marginal costs with wings."� Alfred Kahn, 1977
 
D-aqui
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:16 pm

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 8:58 pm

@ Racko

Thank you about the FAZ-source. Kriege ich leider nicht mehr in Belgien.

@all

I have to second Racko that the FAZ is usually a very reliable source which is why I have to testify once more: in the vicinity of a big airport you a) have to stick to certain rules and if you cannot do this you should b) facilitate those who are trying to solve the problem together with you.

And finally: there is no expatriate law in FRA airspace. In article 315a the German Penal Code clearly rules (only literal translation in parts) that he who as a pilot etc....endangers life etc....by contravening law and regulations concerning the security of airtraffic is liable to be prosecuted either to a financial penalty or to a prison sentence up to five years.

As I do not know the exact circumstances it is difficult to judge whether this case would come under this provision, but maybe it is food for thought.

d-aqui
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:40 pm

SID- Standard instrument departure
STAR- Standard terminal arrival procedure
 
wingman
Posts: 2795
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Tue Jul 16, 2002 12:37 am

I agree with Racko (seriously). Why there is a single US miltary man or women still based anywhere in Europe defies comprehension. Europe is the richest continent on Earth and they should be taking care of 100% of their own military/defense issues.
 
dragogoalie
Posts: 1172
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 3:58 pm

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Tue Jul 16, 2002 12:57 am

Okay...that makes no sense...it was operated by PAC (polar air cargo) we get those planes through the base I live on all the time. I'd be willing to bet that as it was a freight charter, the plane was not operated by an air force pilot, but rather someone who works for PAC. Does anyone have a source for this story, I'd like to read the story from the media so I can get it without any bias...

--dragogoalie-#88--
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
Thumper
Posts: 520
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2001 2:12 am

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:50 pm

I agree with both Wingman and Racko,the U.S.miltary should pull out of Europe! Why should America taxpayers pay for Europe's defense! We have paid with our lives and money for the last 50 years and they hate our guts anyway! It's time to take care of ourselves and let Europe take care of themselves!
 
KFRG
Posts: 353
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2002 10:37 am

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfai

Tue Jul 16, 2002 2:10 pm

"agree with both Wingman and Racko,the U.S.miltary should pull out of Europe! Why should America taxpayers pay for Europe's defense! We have paid with our lives and money for the last 50 years and they hate our guts anyway! It's time to take care of ourselves and let Europe take care of themselves!"

Wow, ignorance runs high in this thread........
 
svenvdm
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 1:23 am

RE: Charter B741 For Usaf Faced Full Instrumentfailure

Wed Jul 17, 2002 12:57 am

Somebody listening to a scanner on that Wednesday said something about an emergency (of highest level) being declared and other traffic being diverted...

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