keesje
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British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:45 pm

Airlines that operate extensive intercontinental networks almost all operate 400 seat 747's.

Most of them also bought the 300-350 seat A340-300 or 777 for thinner routes.

Many operate the 220 seat 767 aircraft for even thinner / medium routes.

Many of those airlines are introducing A330 to replace 767/310's and fill the gab under the 777-200 's. Examples : KLM, CX, Emirates, AF, (LH ?), ..

BA's strategy is to fly directly to all major long haul destinations from LHR. BA strategy is to focus on high yield passengers, not quantity.

BA has been phasing out 767-300ER's or redeploying it on shorter routes. The 767-400ER is appears to be inefficient for long haul flights.

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IMO the chance that BA is considering the A330-200 to fill the gab under the 777-200ER is therefore not imaginary.

Please, "xxxxx airlines is a loyal A / B customer and therefore ..."
IMO is a proven invalid proposition in todays industry.
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steman
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:51 pm

British Airways ordering Airbus planes is not an oddity considering their current short haul fleet.

Ciao

Stefano
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:52 pm

Is this your opinion or have u got a link to this theory?
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777236ER
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:01 am

Considering BA is loosing so much money, I doubt they're considering buying any aircraft and may be regretting the big Airbus order.
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donder10
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:04 am

Reconfiguring some 763s would be much cheaper than ordering 332 although some of BAs 763s have crappy range.
 
CF-CPI
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:10 am

I wouldn't be so hasty as to rule out the 767-400 for BA. Sure, the A330-200 has a better lift capability overall, but it appears that CO is making perfectly good use of the 767-400 on both the North Atlantic and to South America. On the basis of range, is the -400 ruled out for LHR-DFW (for example) or other routes to the interior of the US? The -400 has cockpit commonality with the 777 and could be used on a seasonal basis quite nicely to fill in when big brother is too large, or to increase frequencies.

BA has been rather tepid about using the 767-300 on the Atlantic but I have the impression that the RR-powered variant had less range than the GE/Pratt variant, and this may have muted BA's enthusiasm in that market.
 
EGFF
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:13 am

"Considering BA is loosing so much money, I doubt they're considering buying any aircraft and may be regretting the big Airbus order."

I heard that British Airways may be getting the A318, can anyone back me up on this?  Confused
EGFF
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:13 am

The A330-200 might be too big for BA on short haul european routes, LHR-AMS/CGD/ZRH etc. The only plus point is it would have fleet commonality with the rest of the A320 family fleet, but not sure how much of a factor that would be in replacing the 763's. This is where i think Airbus could develop something to replace the A300/A310, a 200 seater.

What about the 753 for BA?

Arsenal@LHR
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David_itl
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:18 am

BA used to have a fleet of 3 767s based away from LHR/LGW in the early 1990s: G-BNWN, G-BNWO & G-BNWU if I remember correctly. Two were based at MAN (for the JFK & LAX* runs) and the other at BHX (for their JFK-YYZ run).

I pretty sure that they have operated the 767 from LHR & LGW to the US but I don't know which destinations.

* They operated this non-stop - something like 10 hours travelling time?

Currently they (or should I say BA CitiExpress) have got G-BNWH on a piece of elastic flying between MAN and JFK (when it's not gone tech).

David
 
David_itl
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:20 am


EGFF, I believe they've downgraded their A318 "fleet" from 12 orders + 12 options to just 6 orders.

David
 
CF-CPI
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:31 am

David_itl, off the top of my head I think that EWR, PHL, PIT and perhaps ATL received 767-300 nonstops out of LHR/LGW at one time or another. Possibly BOS as well? They were mainly east coast, but it was interesting to know of the MAN-LAX segment. Yes, that would tax one's derriere, sitting there all that time (the 767 is rather pokey). I don't recall IAH or DFW ever receiving them, and the DEN and PHX,SAN routes came along after BA was whittling the 767 fleet down.
 
deltairlines
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely

Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:23 am

I believe the 767-400 ER would be a good addition for BA. First off, the 764 has basically the same flight deck (at least on Delta) as the 777, with the only difference between them being that the 777's backup attitude, altitude and airspeed indicators are digital, while the 764 has the conventional gauges. But before any new order is announced from BA, there are several other priorities, which include making money, the LGW "hub", and the short-haul network, as well as finding room at LHR.

Jeff
 
EGFF
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:30 am

Ah thanks for that David, i knew they had something to do with the A318  Smile
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GD727
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:39 am

I agree with DeltAirlines, the 764 would be better for BA since they already have the 777. This stuff about the 764 being "inefficient" is a pile of garbage.

-GD727
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EGFF
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:42 am

Funny how all the Americans are all for the B767-400, i wonder why  Big grin
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:43 am

Current BA 763 destinations include DTW/BWI from LHR, CLT from LGW, JFK from MAN.
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EGGD
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:48 am

Well, IF they were going to order one or the other, I'd say they'd go with the A330-200 as apposed to the B767-400ER. Because of the range, BA wanted the point to point from LHR, where loads won't be as high as flying to a hub, especially ultra-long haul which 764 can't provide. Thats what I'd say.

However I like BA's fleet how it is (Airbus short haul, Boeing long haul).

Dan  Smile
 
N79969
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:52 am

Efficient/inefficient is all relative. Although the 764 is a modern efficient airliner, it is not (it pains me to say this) as efficient as the A332 from what I have read. The 332 is now used on routes like SEL-AMS which is outside of the 764s range.

EGGF, It's even funnier when Europeans argue that the A333/A340 are better than the 777s.
 
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yyz717
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 2:15 am

BA was actually in talks with Boeing on a 773 order (to replace early 744's) prior to 911. I see this as the most likely new BA type.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
brons2
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 2:23 am

The main problem as I see it is the lack of range with the 764. Rangs is 5,645 nm. Whereas with the A332, range is 6,650 nm at the highest offered MTOW. That's 1000nm farther...you can go a long ways on that. These figures are both at max pax and not pax+cargo of course.

One interesting thing, the 764 carries only 23,980 US gallons of fuel. The A332 carries US 36,750 gallons. Therefore, fuel consumption at max range is 4.24 gallons/mile for the Boeing and 5.52 gallons/mile for the Airbus. Of course, this does not account for the cargo carrying capability of the planes, which I'm guessing the Airbus' capability is higher.

anyways...carry on.
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aamd11
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 2:40 am

EGFF,

i do believe they reduced the order to just 6 A318s, and replaced the other six firm orders with orders for 4 A321 for the main fleet [as opposed to the fleets of GB Airways and BMed.]

as for next new type, i say 773 maybe for early 744s [it was discussed a long time ago, way back in April last year i think there was mention of it.]
As for A332/764 i say dont rule either of them out, for simple reasons in both cases, they can quite easily integrate them into an existing fleet [A320 family or 777 a/c], and IF they do order 773s to replace a few 744s [the original number was to replace about 12 a/c] i wouldnt be suprised if Boeing tried to flog them some 764s at the same time, and if the prices are favourable then they will take some.

Just my two cents.

Regards,
A^A MD-11
 
EGFF
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 2:48 am

N79969 - The A330 is running away with the orders from the 767-400, i infact quite like the 764 but the A330, those wings .... i love it  Smile
EGFF
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qatarairways
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 2:49 am

Another advantage the A330-200 has on long hauls over the B767 according to a GF employee is that the A330-200's wings are quite large and create a lot of lift. The extra size and hence weight is a disadvantage on shorthauls but is an advantage on longer routes because since the A330-200's wing creates a lot more lift than the B767's wings and so the engines run with a lower throttle setting compared to the B767 and therefore reducing fuel consumption.

I don't really know if this is true or not but I hope someone here can elaborate more on this.

"Of course, this does not account for the cargo carrying capability of the planes, which I'm guessing the Airbus' capability is higher."

The A330-200 has 4800ft3 cargo hold volume compared to 4580ft3 for the B767-400ER and the A330-200 also has higher payload capabilities. The real advantage though is that the A330-200's use LD3 containers which are interchangeable between the A330-200 and the B747-400, B777 and A32X aircraft in BA's fleet.

One last advantage is speed. The A330-200 cruises at M0.82 while the B767-400ER cruises at M0.80 it is not a large difference but is something that some people love to point out when comparing the A340 and the B777.

Basically the A330-200 is beating the B767-400 in all the criteria that the B777 is beating the A340 (classics).

Regards,
QatarAirways
 
dutchjet
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:26 am

In the past, BA has looked at all of the different versions of the A330 and passed......it just doesn't fit into their fleet plans. It is also unlikely that BA will order the 764, again, not the right aircraft for them. Almost all of BA's long haul services are out of crowded LHR, only a handfull of long-haul services fly out of LGW (mainly to the USA and due to B 2), they need capacity and the 777 is ideal for these routes. The 772 and 744 will handle almost all of the long-haul BA routes, with maybe the 773 added in the future. The 763 may stay around for some high-density European routes and a few medium-range thin routes, but the type will be slowly phased out and not directly replaced.

BA, with its 4-class long-haul strategy and home-based in crowded LHR needs big planes with lots of seats and versatility, for this reason I think that the 772 will be the smallest of BA's future long-haul fleet.
 
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Crosswind
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:47 am

I think the choice of B767-300 replacement (should there be one any time soon) will depend on what British Airways want more.

The B767-400 runs out of range for long-thin routes, the main strength of the A330-200. Conversely the B767-400 would be much better suited to short-haul routes, where the longer-legged A330-200 becomes an overkill (cf Lufthansa)

I would predict that given BA's problems with it's short-haul network profitability and capacity reductions, they will retain younger B767-300s to serve higher density European routes. I can't see why BA would have an interest in anything larger than the B767-300 for European flights. As the A318/319/320/321 fleet grows, whats left of the current 757/767 fleet should be able to handle high-density Euro flights.

On long-haul roues I believe the A330 will be very attractive for long-thin routes, with very little case to be made for the B767-400. The A330 offers a range well beyond that of the B767-300, increased freight capacity, A32X flightdeck commonality and similar engines to the B777. A capacity increase shouldn't be too much of a problem here as long-haul routes are where BA has traditionally made money, plus an A330-200 configured in the new FCWY/CWY layouts would probably seat the about the same or even possibly fewer than the old configured FCY/CY B767s.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
qatarairways
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:05 am

Dutchjet you raise a good point about the congestion in LHR but I would think that the A330-200 would be perfect for starting new point to point services from MAN, BHX and LGW. The aircraft could also replace the B757 and B767 on some routes out of LHR where the A321 would be too small and the B777 too large.

Regards,
QatarA330
 
brons2
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:06 am

Another interesting point, Boeing was working on a 764LR (note I said LR not ER) for Kenya Airlines but they decided to switch to the 772ER instead...
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Crosswind
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:23 am

Hi Brons2,

You're correct, Boeing had launched the B767-400ERX, with orders from Kenya Airways for the type powered by RR Trent engines. However, it was Boeing that pulled the plug on the B767-400ERX programme, forcing Kenya Airways to review their options. Given their planned 73G/763 fleet the 764ERX made the most sense, with the RR Trent powered B777-200ER being the next best option after the cancellation of Kenya Airways' first choice!

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EGGD
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:47 am

Yay! Kenya Airways, I fly them on Sunday  Smokin cool.

Just thought you'd like to know is all...  Crying
 
brons2
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:13 am

Why did they cancel the 764ERX? Was the expected performance (range/weight) outside of technical possibility? I looked at the airplane performace charts for the 764 on Boeing's Airport Planning website and I noticed that the takeoff distances are very, very long for the 764. Perhaps they could not add any more weight to the plane....

Notice I started a thread about making a 777-100 based on the A market 777-200 (506-545K MTOW). But anyways....
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
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Crosswind
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:36 am

Don't remember the exact reason for the cancellation of the 764ERX, but would assume it was due to the overall poor sales performance of the 764, and the cost of developing the ERX for a relatively small market.

The relatively poor takeoff performance of the 764 is probably due to the fact that to save costs the same engines as the 763 are used, despite the 764's higher weights (The engine is the: GE CF6-80C2B7F)

The 764ERX addressed that issue by offering the much more powerful RR Trent or PWGE Alliance engine to cope with the increased weights of the longer-range model.

Unfortunately, I think the cancellation of the 764ERX sealed the success of the A330-200 and the fate of the B767-400, and handed this market segment to Airbus. Since it's launch the 767-400 has had no customers, and the likes ILFC and Kenya Airways have cancelled. The A330-200 has enjoyed continued success, no doubt aided by the lack of direct competition from Boeing.

I think Boeing may have fallen into the same trap British aircraft makers in the late 1950s/early 1960s, when the VC-10 was designed to meet BOAC requirements and the Trident was designed for BEA. Because these aircraft were so airline-specific, their sales records to other carriers was abysmal. In the same way the 767-400 was designed to stop Continental/Delta defecting to Airbus and meet the needs of US Domestic carriers to replace their DC-10/L1011 fleets. It meets those requiements well but the cancellation of the 764ERX, which would have made the 764 very attractive to potential customers, means the 767-400 is never going to have much appeal outside the US - most potential customers choosing the A330/B777 or even sticking to the B767-300 with it's superior range. Range usually seems to be the reason protential 764 customers look elswhere.

Shame really, I flew on a Delta B767-400 last year, and it was a very nice aircraft, certainly from a passenger perspective the new cabin is a considerable improvement over the old B767-2/300.

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tullamarine
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RE: British Airways Considering A330 Not Unlikely ..

Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:07 am

BA are trying to reduce capacity on European routes and are doing this by replacing 752s and 763s with A32Xs so an order for 764 or A332 is unlikely. A large part of their 763 fleet has already been leased to QF for Australian domestic operations.

Given their current financial situation it is unlikely they will add much to long-haul capacity in the short-term and concentrate solely on existing 772s and 744s. Even an A380 order, which given their reliance on the increasingly choked LHR, makes sense is a long way off.

The 764ERX was cancelled at the same time as the 747X. Both were planned to use the same powerplants and without the 747X, it was uneconomical to develop this powerplant solely for the 764ERX.
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