DeltaSFO
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United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:50 am

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/newsarticle.asp?siteid=mktw&sid=12888&guid=%7B2349AC9A%2D321F%2D4E7C%2D96B3%2D2835E4FF5978%7D

CHICAGO, Jul 24, 2002 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- United Airlines (UAL) today announced an agreement with US Airways that will allow both carriers to market service on each other's networks, providing significant consumer benefits and bringing new revenue and customers to their route networks.

It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:51 am

It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
BA
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:04 am

Wowser, never thought it would be so sudden.

Well hopefully it'll bring good to the 2 airlines.

I wish them both luck.

Both airlines I highly respect greatly.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Guest

RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:08 am

This is great news. More oppurtunities for earning mileage. Does anyone know if miles earned on US flights will go towards status?
 
AeroGlobeAir7
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:17 am

Will this just be a codeshare, or is US actually joining Star? I really doubt the latter, but I'm just curious. Thanks!
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:18 am

This, I think, has been a given for some time now. I think the real question is what Delta, American, and Northwest are going to do to punish UAL and U for linking up.

Stay tuned... this is about to get exciting.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:24 am

This reminds me of a great point and counterpoint I'd once heard:


"Two heads are better than one."

"Yes, but not when both are stupid."  Big grin




Let's hope they can make things work.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
jrlander
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:52 am

Just remember, Leo Mullin stated that if this alliance were to happen, Delta would have to answer it.
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:58 am

Punish them for linking up? How? Is this linkup really going to hurt the others that bad? NW and CO already are linked up. I can't see how DL would loose pax to either from this deal seeing their route system doesn't exactly overlap w/ UAL or US.
 
srbmod
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:02 am

Now who could Delta link up with in an alliance? Considering that they are weaker in the West than in the East, someone like Alaska or America West. Or maybe they'll do something off the wall, like an alliance with American, or National or Frontier. We will see Mr. Mullin's response within 90 days.
 
FutureSQPilot
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:03 am

Any chance that DL will try to link up with America West in retaliation?
 
westjet_8
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:06 am

I wonder now if say DL and AA will link up. Then all of the US majors will have parners. DL needs to find a parner though and it might link up with say two smaller carriers such as froniter and America West.
Canadian. RIP 1999
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:10 am

I doubt HP. HP doesn't conform to the service levels that are consistent to the image DL wants to portray.
 
desertjets
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:14 am

This could be the beginning of a beautiful relationship, or just the start of USAirways becoming a feeder operation for United.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
MSY-MSP
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:17 am

I don't think a link-up of DL and AA is likely. If I remeber a few years ago when these link-ups were going on. AA-US, NW-CO were able to get there link ups but UA-DL tried to get one going and it got quashed by DOT. At that time UA was the #1 carrier and DL was #3. Now after the TWA merger AA is #1 and we have the same situtation all over again #1 with #3. If it got quashed once, then it is likely to get quashed again. The most likely senario I can think of for DL is to go with AS. Alaska offers DL a lot of western routes, and is a full service carrier with a good reputation. I don't think DL wants the potential bad PR of linking with HP right now. But then again the way the airline industry is going right now anything is possible. BTW what do you all think about the potential stanglehold by US-UA on flights into and out of WAS (UA dominant carrier at IAD, US dominant carrier at DCA and strong at BWI)

MSY-MSP
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:22 am

DL and UAL actually got some link up going back then. It is still in effect. Don't know if it will after this. But you can accrue SkyMIles when flying UAL.
 
MSY-MSP
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:37 am

There is limited FF earning potential on the UA-DL linkup. Only in the US and nowhere else. There is limited club reciprocity also. What I was talking about was that DOT quashed the code share and most of the rest of the agreement that UA and DL had wanted originally. UA-DL got nothing like what NW-CO got or even AA-US.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:42 am

What I was talking about was that DOT quashed the code share and most of the rest of the agreement that UA and DL had wanted originally. UA-DL got nothing like what NW-CO got or even AA-US.

Not quite. Delta ALPA and United ALPA both were against it and both had veto power over domestic codeshares and exercised it. It's a different story, now that UAL is talking not about expanding east coast presence but rather about staying alive.

There is a price Leo has to pay DALPA to make domestic codeshare happen, and I think this might just convince him that the price is worth it.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
b764
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 9:02 am

I don't see why U can't join the Star Alliance. Especially when you best friend (UAL) help start Star. Isn't CO directly involved in the alliance with NW, KLM, & Alitalia?
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 9:18 am

Look for an AA/DL link soon. They might have to isolate DFW from the agreement but it would make the most sense from a competiton standpoint.
AA and AS also have a code-share relationship and DL could benefit from that also. Where does that leave NW and CO? More than likely back with HP...
Coast to Coast and Border to Border, Ozark Flies YOUR Way!
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 9:51 am

There is a price Leo has to pay DALPA to make domestic codeshare happen, and I think this might just convince him that the price is worth it.

What price is that? Considering the extremely generous contract Delta's pilots won on the backs of UA pax grounded by the UA pilots' Summer of Hell, it's not clear to me what else the DL pilots would want. Is it just something like no codeshare on shared routes, etc?

The UA-US codeshare is extremely complementary from a route map perspective, but a DL-AA codeshare would offer more sheer mass. But as noted above, the latter might not fly from an antitrust perspective. For once UA seems to have pulled off a move that gives them a competitive advantage over AA--strong East Coast coverage.

Too bad US will only exist for another year or so, maybe less, for UA to enjoy it. Once US goes under, though, UA will probably buy planes and gates for the CLT hub, so they'll keep some of what they lose.

Jim
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planelover
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 9:58 am

So, would that make Midway and United codesharers too?

Have fun.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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DeltaSFO
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 9:59 am

What price is that? Considering the extremely generous contract Delta's pilots won on the backs of UA pax grounded by the UA pilots' Summer of Hell, it's not clear to me what else the DL pilots would want. Is it just something like no codeshare on shared routes, etc?

The UA-US codeshare is extremely complementary from a route map perspective, but a DL-AA codeshare would offer more sheer mass. But as noted above, the latter might not fly from an antitrust perspective. For once UA seems to have pulled off a move that gives them a competitive advantage over AA--strong East Coast coverage.

Too bad US will only exist for another year or so, maybe less, for UA to enjoy it. Once US goes under, though, UA will probably buy planes and gates for the CLT hub, so they'll keep some of what they lose.


Jim... Last time the DL-UA linkup was tried, the pilots' union demanded a voting seat on Delta's Board of Directors. Leo decided that wasn't worth it and ditched the codeshare plan.

I definitely think you're overestimating United's capability to acquire anything at any point in the near future. They've got a $900m debt note coming due next quarter and they've got to figure out how to refinance it.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 10:28 am

AS isn't interested in being purchased by anyone. They're perfectly content with the codesharing and marketing agreements they've put together over the years.

US may have blown a major opportunity by linking with UA. Now that they're making inroads on cutting their costs, a merger with HP would have made perfect sense. The only thing making such a deal unworkable in the past was the fact that HP's cost advantage would be submarined when coupled with US's high cost structure. Now that they're getting their costs under control, it may have been feasible to pursue HP.

Granted, now that HP has a market cap of just over $75M, they're an attractive target for just about anybody.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 10:33 am

I don't see US merging with HP. Yes, the fleets are common and there is no overlap, but remember what US did with PSA.......It bought them, established a bigger presence out west, operated an LAX-SFO shuttle called the US Air California Shuttle and in 1992, moved most of the planes East to beef up PIT,
CLT, BWI, and PHL.

 
Tbird
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 10:48 am

Greetings:

What a marraige one on the brink of Chap 11 and the other not far behind. I don't see any benefit in this partnership. Personally I agree with some of the above that America West and Us Airways should have linked up. That would have been a perfect partnership, US Airways route structure in the east and America West's route structure in the west, plus the same fleet type who could ask for more.

Regards
Tom
 
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 10:53 am

ContinentalEWR-

You're right, but that was then, and this is now. The current management at US isn't the myopic "Let's shoot ourselves in the foot...no, wait! How about our head instead?" group of the past. They know their strengths in the East aren't worth much without transcontinental feed and/or a significant presence in the West. It's doubtful that they'd attempt to beef up the East at the expense of HP's operations, save for that lame excuse for a hub they have at CMH.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
usairways85
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:23 pm

it says on usairways' website that usairways would not join the star alliance until after the first year of their partnership with united. so although its likely they will join the star alliance it wont happen for a while and who knows if they will still be around then.
 
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STT757
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:36 pm

If anyone goes after HP it will be DL, I've heard rumor about a DL buyout before. DL would set up a Delta Express (West), out of PHX and LAS.
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N839MH
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:38 pm

OK Before any bashing....just a wild off the wall idea....what if ???



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like I said...Any possibilities? Leo always mentions LUV in his press releases.

Solodude!
 
N839MH
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:45 pm

remark for the above post....

Suggestion: Would a codeshare of some sort between
Delta & Southwest be a good idea? Would a deal like this benefit either company?

What would the negatives be? Just think this could really be interesting,
and what waves would this cause in the industry? I believe it could
be a really good idea.
Solodude!
 
BH346
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:46 pm

MH: That's very unlikely, I think I remember hearing Southwest say they want to remain independent from other carriers, no surprise because they're doing well on their own anyway and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
About Star Allliance: I remember reading last month's Airways and I recall it saying that Star Alliance was seeking another US member but would not say who. This is kinda strange though, since US Airways isn't in good shape at all right now.
Northwest Airlines - Some People Just Know How to Fly
 
Guest

RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:52 pm

DL and WN would never happen. The only thing that could remotely happen with that is WN buying out DL, but there's a next to nothing chance of that happening.
 
BA
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:08 pm

I don't even see WN buying out DL. WN is a simple airline, and they don't want to increase any complications by buying DL.

I just don't see WN entering any alliance of any sort. Not even a code-share agreement.

I see them as remaining an independant low-fare carrier as is, that stays out of outside influence.

They're a neutral airline.

My answer is no way.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:18 pm

I definitely think you're overestimating United's capability to acquire anything at any point in the near future. They've got a $900m debt note coming due next quarter and they've got to figure out how to refinance it.

I was just thinking that when US goes under, about 70 percent of the airline--the CLT and PHL hubs and the shuttle--is going to be up for grabs. (the rest will not be acquired and will be retired) United is still smarting from AA's TWA coup, and as the codeshare shows, still concerned about getting more East Coast market share.

UA would view sitting out the carving-up of US as a major strategic error, and would do almost anything to play. I bet UA would be willing to mortgage a bunch of their planes to buy CLT, that's how much they want East Coast market share.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:32 pm

A code share service between WN and DL sounds interesting but improbable since the airline's delivery of their product is quite different from one another coupled with the fact that the only DL hub city that WN serves is SLC making an interchange of passengers difficult at best. But, who knows, I've quit being surprised in this industry but, as DeltaSFO says, it's about to get exciting.
 
Guest

RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:27 pm

Frankly, I think AA is sitting pretty. And, so is Delta if it plays its political cards right.

AA, in particular, has done enough over the last two years to enhance their network that I think they really do not have to do anything to react to this. With the addition of the Eagle Shuttle, they now have the kind of scale on both the east and the west coasts in major business routings that they've become an extremely hard bargain for corporate travel managers to pass up.

Mind you UA won't be getting the one thing out of this deal that a merger with US Airways would have provided, the ability to set prices across their combined networks. That is big because the more control one has over one's own seat inventory the better one becomes in figuring out how to discount that inventory for large corporate clients. Hypothetically, the inventory that UA wanted to control was that of the US Airways shuttle. While I am sure that the rest of the network has some value for US Airways as a whole, for United there was the Shuttle and everything else. It is one of the things that was missing from their portfolio of services. This deal has done nothing to change that because United can still not "market" that inventory as its own. It may be able to sell seats on US Airways planes because of this deal. But it will not be able to leverage the Shuttle inventory from a price standpoint in order to sell more tickets on its transcons, etc. By comparison, AA through the Eagle Shuttle will have no problem doing that since Eagle's seat inventory remains entirely under AA's operational and financial control.

This codeshare deal also creates a lot of operational confusion, more so for UA than US. What will happen to their regional affiliate in Dulles, ACA, and their own mainline services from Dulles that are not specifically timed to connect to international services? Frankly, I have no confidence in their ability to see at this moment that the codeshare deal with US Airways will undercut the viability of their Dulles hub for anything but international service and transcons. If UA were buying US Airways they could rationalize their route structures, but under a codeshare deal they have no such legal power.

ACA's role as a United Express carrier out of Dulles suddenly becomes strategically dubious. ACA and mainline UA fly many routes out of Dulles in the northeast corridor that are already being served by US Airways. At the moment, United can manage ACA's inventory; so, even now they can offer better pricing on a ticket including a segment on ACA. If this codeshare deal ever happens, however, they will not only see the ACA flight in their system but the US Airways codeshare flight out of DCA. The US Airways flight is more timely and departs conveniently out of DCA. The United passenger prefers that flight. UA sells that ticket. The United passenger gets miles on US Airways that he or she can use on United. One problem, United made no money on that single transaction, transaction fees notwithstanding. They actually may have lost money in FF miles. So, to sum up what just happened, for the sake of some illusory marketing effect and some belief that this will generate more revenue systemwide, United has sold a US Airways ticket, not a United ticket, to a customer who could have bought a United Ticket and flown ACA. If this pattern continues, ACA suddenly finds it harder and harder to operate as many frequencies out of Dulles as they once did. Mainline finds it just as hard. So, what happens to the feed that UA needs for all of that international service. Some of it was always O&D; so it is still there. But not all of it was there and now that same traffic is at some other international gateway with more convenient connections, perhaps AA's JFK, Delta's Atlanta, or CO's EWR.

United may figure this out in time. I suspect the smarter folks at American and Delta already have. If they are following me so far, then, they know that there are at least two or three ways they can punish UA and US without having to allign themselves with one another or another major carrier. As a condition of approval, they could ask the DOT to require United and US Airways to operate just as many flights or ASM's to the same cities under the codeshare as they are doing now. The reasoning would be that only by maintaining the same number of flights or ASM's would the rest of the airlines be assured that they are indeed competing against each other. As a condition of approval, they could also ask the DOT to lift the perimeter restrictions around DCA so that Delta and American could begin operating transcons out of DCA. What a better way to further undercut United's transcon operations at Dulles after United already undercut them itself? Better yet, one of them could approach ACA, an independently owned company, and buy it. ACA can't be too happy about having to split the United pie with all of US Airways regional affiliates, especially the new MidAtlantic Airways with 100's of RJ's. On the other hand, it could become a viable piece in a larger Eagle. Delta has one other option. And, this one seems like something Mullin might do out of pure vengeance. Buy Skywest. The havoc that would wreck on United's western operations. (Skywest and ACA, of course, are in play because United, unlike US Airways, American and Delta never incorporated and consolidated its regional affiliates.)

Having said all this, I think that American and Delta are going to exert whatever political pressure they can to drag out the approval process. United and US Airways forget that Northwest/Continental did not receive immediate approval for their codeshare deal. There were problems with that deal that went beyond the equity stake that Northwest intended to make in Continental. Continental and Northwest also did not have much opposition from the other carriers. Not going to be the same with United and US Airways. In many ways, the DOT is more susceptible to political manipulation than the DOJ. Delta certainly proved that in leading the assault against AA/BA. This should be interesting.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:54 pm

Ladevale,

For once, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
keesje
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RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:00 pm

Please read the complete press release :

  • US Airways and United will remain separate competing companies with separate schedules, pricing, and sales functions.

  • In addition, unlike some existing airline alliances, there is no equity ownership element between US Airways and United.

  • The two airlines will independently set prices and establish schedules, and they will continue to compete on all routes served by one another.


  • Just code share & FF miles ?
    "Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
     
    FlyPNS1
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    RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

    Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:52 am

    Hmmm....Ladevale's ideas are interesting. ACA definitely might be very unappreciative of being forced to compete with all the USExpress carriers. There's too much overlap between ACA and USExpress for ACA to survive based on UA's minimal feed at IAD.

    I don't know if DL could just buy SkyWest right out from under UAL. I have a feeling that SkyWest might not want to get bought either. They like having two different carriers to feed to.

    DL and AA definitely have the most to lose in this agreement. I've seen a few different projections that the codeshare could cause DL alone to lose up to $200 million annually. Obviously, DL can't allow that. The only partners that seem to work are HP and AS. I don't think AS is interested, but HP might be.

    I know some say that HP's service isn't up to DL's standards but I think they are wrong. In terms of on-time performance and reliability...HP is easily beating DL now. In terms of onboard service, DL has degraded it enough to the point that its not really any better than HP.

    AA/DL codeshare or DL/NW/CO codeshare would probably be too large for the DOT to allow.

    I agree that DL and AA will try to delay the codeshare as long as possible....hoping that US doesn't survive long enough to see the codeshare.
     
    UA744Flagship
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    RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

    Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:29 am

    It is always easy to find the faults of any deal.

    Frankly, I have no confidence in their ability to see at this moment that the codeshare deal with US Airways will undercut the viability of their Dulles hub for anything but international service and transcons.

    Dulles has already turned into pretty much that. You're right, those who fly ACA on the non-international/transcon connection banks are United flyers who would otherwise fly US Airways. Now that US Airways is in play, those people would probably choose US Airways. As it stands right now, Dulles is little more than transcontinental, hub, gateway, and European flights.

    But, as you said, United can't coordinate pricing between its U codeshared flights and its own. Therefore, a United/ACA routing is still likely to have the upper hand in pricing over a United/UA* US Airways routing. The flyer will probably stay with UA/BR, unless his corporate budget allwaos him to go with the more expensive combination (US), which is very rare nowadays. Besides, UA and US state that they fully intend to compete fiercely on existing markets they serve.

    Keep in mind it could also be the case that US flyers would suddenly find it more convenient or desireable to connect on United to transcontinental or European markets, instead of going through the US Airways hubs. (It is interesting to note that United's NE-South American services are being relocated to IAD as a re-emphasizing of the IAD gateway). Also, bear in mind that all this ACA capacity on non-UA banked connections in IAD is a drop in the bucket compared to US Airways' eastern route structure.

    And while we are in hypothetical conjecture, if UA found that more UA loyal flyers preferred the US flights to the point where certain BR flights became unprofitable for United, United would love to shift more RJs to ORD, which is going slot-free, about to undergo a significant expansion, and needs a competitive edge over RJ services provided by American (the horrible UAX ORD facilities notwithstanding).

    While the key benefit of the merger is not present in this codeshare, the second largest benefit is here, and is here big-time. It's not about simply increasing yields, or increasing revenue... it's about building an attractive network. It is about increasing yields and revenue while at the same time increasing loyalty.

    Before, US flyers had no incentive to choose UA over NW when wanting to fly over the Pacific. Same with UA over AA, DL, or CO over to Latin America and across the Atlantic. They will in the future, now that UA and US will start coordinating flight schedules, combining mileage programs and reservations systems.

    From a management standpoint AA has the advantage in managing pricing inventory and costs in the shuttle market. Wow. But from a customer's standpoint, will AA present an AAdvantage  Smile for it? Hardly, unless they're an AA flyer.

    UA and US will cement their loyal customer bases on the east coast (United's primarily in the northern va. corridor) and bolster their reasons to stay loyal. Why fly Eagle Shuttle when you can get real jets and dedicated terminals on US, with access to not only the Caribbean, Europe, and Latin America, but a comprehensive Pacific Rim network as well? Why fly the DL Shuttle when you can't fly to the Pacific or as easily to points west of the Mississippi?

    To be sure, US Shuttle flyers will probably jump to AA if they or their business desires to take them to many points in Latin America or the Caribbean... but there is no reason for them to stray further from US when going to Canada, Europe, the Western USA, or the Pacific now that they can make easy connections to United -or fly United directly- that enhance their mileage status. Which is precisely why DL is worried... not so much by the pricing capabilities of a combined US/UA entity in the South/Eastern Seaboard --because the "United States Alliance" will have no such capability as yet planned-- but by the allure of that entity to Delta's very own frequent flyers.

    Like the deal was announced, this is very much a marketing tactic. Damn the torpedoes, both companies will have to be flexible if their competing markets start to cannibalize each other. Both companies are in dire straits anyhow.


    As for US taking a year to join the *alliance, this is the right step. US wants to work out the kinks in its codesharing with United before it goes into anything further, which is te right way to play it.

    Also, I don't think any of the Express carriers on either side are involved, as it would be too hard to work out while mainline coordinates schedules, facilities, and systems (an immense task in itsealf). Plus, the Express carriers exist primarily to feed the hubs, something which US mainline would not seek to do for UA mainline, and vice versa. Unlike what people think, this doesn't necessarily mean US becoming a UA feeder. Like I said, it is more like UA having a *alliance partner in the US, as feed from a mainline carrier is very much different from feed of a regional.


    MY PREDICTIONS OF THE AFTERMATH:

    * UA will have US staff groundhandle its flights in certain eastern/southern airports, and US will have UA crew do the same in certain western stations (job protections will be in place, of course)... PIT comes into mind for UA

    * UA will increase service to Hawaii, after the many years of lusting access by US flyers... east coast cargo should offset the losses incurred by mileage redeemers

    * UA will start Boston to Tokyo

    * UA and US will have a tough time consolidation facilities in airports such as, but not limited to: SFO, BOS; but a relatively easy time relocating in: PHL, DEN, LGA, DCA, CLT, MIA, LAX, ORD

    * Watch ORD's concourse F undergo renovations (read: jetbridges) as it becomes completely UAX when US moves its gates over to UA's B or C

    * Looking for some possible actions  Smile between ACA and PSA (as planned during merger time), and other wholly-owneds... this will settle UAX/UEX coordination/competition issues quicker

    * Look for increased focus on MidAtlantic Airways by US as a vehicle for large 70+ seater RJs (hopefully EMB-170/190s) to enter the US market


    -HL
    no wire hangers!
     
    ual777contrail
    Posts: 2914
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    RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

    Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:39 am

    one clause in the contract states that anytime a UNITED airlines plane operates 12 months out of the year or yearly service it "HAS" to be worked by a united employee.unless we vote on it.for an example:UNITED operates like 9 months out of the year to JAC,because we dont operate 12 months continualy we dont have to have ua emplyees.

    we fly 2 a319's i beleive into JAC a day.



    ual 777 contrail
     
    DeltaSFO
    Topic Author
    Posts: 2407
    Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

    RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

    Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:09 am

    I know some say that HP's service isn't up to DL's standards but I think they are wrong. In terms of on-time performance and reliability...HP is easily beating DL now. In terms of onboard service, DL has degraded it enough to the point that its not really any better than HP.

    I don't normally allow myself to be bothered by what people say, especially on airliners.net, which is to aviation what a high school gym is to the NBA, but this comment by FlyPNS1 has left me more than a little bit puzzled.

    Now, last month's DOT rankings certainly demonstrated poor ontime performance by Delta, but for you to basically say that on an overall basis, Delta is not really any better than HP is laughable, to say nothing of the fact that your opinion doesn't seem to be backed up by industry studies.

    You can take a month or two of DOT rankings and perhaps make that look like it supports your assertions, but when you take the metrics and look at them in their proper perspective, as long term patterns, Delta comes out ahead. Way, way ahead.

    When Kansas State University's annual airline consumer study and Consumer Reports rank Delta #1 overall among U.S. majors year in and year out, that should tell you something.

    And a word about Delta's onboard service. I challenge you to name one area, just one, where Delta lags behind the rest of the industry. In case you weren't aware, Delta is not the only airline that charges for movies, that has slashed meal service to about half its previous level, and so on. Delta has consistenly invested enormous amounts of money in refurbishing and reconfiguring aircraft interiors, even brand new 737-800s, 767-400s, and 777s have been taken off the line to be reconfigured after it was discovered that original configurations were not passenger preferred. No airline, no other airline in the world, has upwards of 70 widebody aircraft that fly exclusively on domestic service. In markets such as PDX where UA and AA have no widebody service, DL offers widebody comfort. And makes money doing it.

    I agree that Delta has its shortcomings, just like any other airline, but for you to put DL on the same level as America West is ridiculous. You're either uninformed or on crack. Maybe both.

    I politely suggest that you put some reality glasses on and revise your statement.
    It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
     
    TonyBurr
    Posts: 1060
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    RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

    Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:11 am

    Anyonw know if FF miles obtained on one airline can be applied to premier level on the other airline? Or just accure miles, but not toward premier level?
     
    seven_fifty7
    Posts: 900
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    RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

    Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:45 am

    Actually, I've been overhearing more and more complaints about the service & delays on Delta, at least in the New York area. And more so by businessmen in suits at lunchtime rather than unknowledgeable once-a-year lesiure traveller. I didn't used to hear that many complaints about the widget, but that seems to be changing now. (Of course post-9/11 cutbacks probably have a lot to do with it).

    Maybe it's the New York-based DL crews?

    It appears as though the reputations of all the majors are balancing out. Everyone is complaining about all of them.

    Just look at the flyertalk boards for each one.
     
    Guest

    RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

    Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:04 pm

    >>And a word about Delta's onboard service. I challenge you to name one area, just one, where Delta lags behind the rest of the industry.<<

    ATL-JAX. AirTran has full beverage service, while the 'leading brand' only has FastBreak service.
     
    MSYtristar
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    RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

    Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:12 pm

    But DL has 767's flying from JAX to ATL! Better than a DC-9 or 717 any day...I don't care how long the flight is!

    I agree that Delta's in flight service sucks, but you know, I'll take bad service on a 767-300 from MSY to ATL than good service on a 717.

    But that's just me.
     
    User avatar
    OA412
    Crew
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    RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

    Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:33 pm

    Delta has one other option. And, this one seems like something Mullin might do out of pure vengeance. Buy Skywest. The havoc that would wreck on United's western operations. (Skywest and ACA, of course, are in play because United, unlike US Airways, American and Delta never incorporated and consolidated its regional affiliates.)

    Hmm, you know Ladevale, I may not normally agree with a lot of what you say but I must say that you bring up a very good point rergarding Skywest and ACA. Currently DL and AA are the only 2 of the big three to do any sort of buying. If DL were to buy Skywest out of revenge, UA just lost a very, very valuable west coast (and DEN) partner. I wonder if this is what Mullin meant when he said that DL was ready to respond in the event of a UA/US codeshare.

    I agree, codesharing is nowhere near as effective as an out and out merger. Certainly UA is trying to get into bed with US in order to buy off the most valuable assets if/once US goes belly up. My prediction, however, is that UA will probably take the CLT hub but, they will have to fight off a much stronger, angrier, and more cash rich AA for the Shuttle operation. Lest we forget, AA has been desperate to get its hands on the Shuttle for quite some time. Let's face it, you cannot be a true player on the East Coast without the Shuttle. The Eagle Shuttle is just the beggining IMHO. AA is establishing itself on the Shuttle Run in order 1)to drive US's shuttle into the ground and 2) to be first in line to buy the operation from US once/if they file for Chapter 11.

    The one obvious stumbling block I see in this whole thing is DC. With UAs hub in IAD, and US' significant operations out of DCA and BWI, I cannot believe that the DOJ will allow UA/US to operate a virtual monopoly out of DC. An obvious solution would be the other majors pressuring Congress to drop the perimeter rule on flights into and out of DCA. If this happens, UA can pretty much kiss the yields on its transcons out of IAD goodbye.

    Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
     
    ORD Boy 2
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    RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

    Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:34 pm

    if the alliance works and US Airways joins star, how long do you give it before these 2 companies try to merge
     
    UA744Flagship
    Posts: 1433
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    RE: United, US Airways Announce Alliance

    Sat Jul 27, 2002 12:38 am

    As a SkyWest employee, it's nonsense to my ears to hear some of you guys postulating that we could be bought out by Delta. While that would be a bold move on Leo's part... it would not happen for a variety of reasons.

    Let's see, in the unlikely event Delta were to purchase us to "get revenge" on United, and stop our United Express flying:

    * You've displaced the majority of SkyWest employees... like me, most of us OO people don't work at SLC or DFW

    * You've got a huge Fresno crew base with pissed off crew who have nothing to do

    * You've suddenly got your hands on 75+ EMB-120 props with nothing to do

    * You've got capital expenditures which suddenly have no revenue source to pay for them... like 80+ CRJs and a brand new TUS maintenance facility

    In essence, Delta would kill SkyWest by buying them, which depends on the majority of its revenue from the United Express operation. Since we operate on guaranteed margins, those would disappear and our cash flow would turn completely negative unless we fired the majority of our UAX-associated employees, not "simply good business".

    Sure, you say, Delta would love to get its hands on more CRJs. Well, mind you, the UAX CRJs are not factored into the DALPA scope, and wouldn't DALPA give a fuss about even MORE RJs being added? DeltaSFO, please correct me if this is wrong.

    Same case with ACA, whose DL Connection operation is smaller than the UAX side by mass proportion.

    Any buyout of either BR or OO would have to mean job protections, otherwise the DOJ would be contacted in regards to Delta just buying out BR or OO with no intent to do anything with the assets other than to make sure United can't use them. That would be pretty evil in the DOJ's eyes.

    In any case, United would not just stand still while its regional feed gets pulled from underneath it. None of you even know of the contractual agreements, protections, and such... which means this is all the more ridiculous. Keep in mind a large part of BR's RJ financing comes from United (this is not the case with SkyWest, however, we do all our finances in-house  Smile ).

    Make no mistake, any furloughed OO or BR crews and equipment in the event of a bitter buyout would be quickly transferred over to another regional, namely Mesa. The demand is clearly there for west coast, as well as ORD and IAD, regional feed. It's only a question of who is to fill it.

    At SkyWest, we are proud to be the nation's largest independently run regional carrier. It's something that has always worked very well for us.
    no wire hangers!