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Best 50-70 Seat Aircraft For Midwest Operator?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 3:34 am

This New Post is a continuation from the original topic:
"ATA Connection - Does TVC Have A Chance?"
and is basically where this question arises from, So I gave it a new topic!!


ATA Connection has been doing so well lately and the Pilot Group of ATA has given them an industry leading scope clause. This in turn has caused every manufacturer to start foaming at the mouth to pitch their A/C at ATA Holdings, the question is being raised "What is the best 50-70 seat aircraft for ATA Connection?"

Every aircraft should be considered, although I personally would like to see a fan in front and not a prop, but that adds a considerable cost to the equation. Also, takeoff and landing performance is paramount, especially if they would keep things moving in and out of MDW (2 main runways aprox. 6000 and some change each, NOT including thresholds)

Please don't just give a one line "vote" (example: CRJ700 Rocks!! end of post)
But please explain specifically why your particular a/c should be a contender.

Let the discussions begin!


Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2002 9:13 am

RE: Best 50-70 Seat Aircraft For Midwest Operator?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 4:25 am

ERJ-140, it is a very popular a/c with passengers, especially since 1/3 seats are Window & Aisle!
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Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Best 50-70 Seat Aircraft For Midwest Operator?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 4:48 am

Break down each family....

Bombardier > CRJ-100/200/400/700/900
A good mix...40 to 90 seaters. Not sure of aquisition costs right now, US is probably going to fix that with Midway aquiring as many as they can. Average costs per hour on a CRJ-200 is around $1130.

Embraer > 135/140/145 & Embraer 170/175/190/195
New family has yet to prove anything, except for being a unique an cool looking fleet.  Smile Ops costs break down to $894/hr for the 135 and $1000 for the 145.

British Aerospace / Avro > 146 & ARJ Family
I'm sure there are plenty 146s and Avros floating around, the only problem? Costs almost double what the other RJs will do and they are no longer in production. These may be able to work in a one class, high capacity function with ATA's setup -- but we have to keep one thing in mind, 4 engines costs more than 2 (usually).  Smile

Fairchild Dornier > 328JET & 728 Family
There are a handful of 328s that may be able to be picked up, but not enough to warrant even looking at -- the Saab 340Bs are doing just fine. 728 is likely never going to fly (unless I can buy the only one and get it in the air  Big grin ) so we won't even worry about commenting.

In all likelyhood....Embraer gets the order. I wouldn't be too suprised either if the Rjs are used for more P2P service to Florida, Vegas, etc. This could really be the first time we see an RJ operation successful in a true discount environment (other than Frontier or Midway 2).
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RE: Best 50-70 Seat Aircraft For Midwest Operator?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:20 am

I'd like to refute the operating cost numbers for the CRJ and EMB-145/135.

Per the 2002 A&A Almanac, the CRJ200 has an industry average operating cost of $1,170. Emb 145 - $1,178. Emb 135 - $1,051. Those numbers are Dollars per block hour.

Of course it is easier to get ahold of ERJ's because of the super-high demand of the CRJ and long backlog at Bombardier. However depreciation kills the ERJ compared to the CRJ, and the CRJ is preferred by pax because of less noise and what one pax called "a larger feel. However CRJ40/44 is a joke and was only ordered by Comair with thoughts of going overwater with the extra space for rafts etc.

Do328 I think is out of the question and like OuBoy said, Avro costs waaaaaaaay too much. ($1,985 block hour)

Embraer will probably get the order out of shear availability, and since RJ's have taken over, I think we can discount any turboprops.
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RE: Best 50-70 Seat Aircraft For Midwest Operator?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:30 am

What one pax called "a bigger" feeling.
That is what one pax called it.
I will be the pax that says the opposite.

Personally I found the CRJ uncomfortable and stuffy.
I liked the ERJ's better because of the good possibility to get and aisle seat so I could stretch my legs every once in a while.
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RE: Best 50-70 Seat Aircraft For Midwest Operator?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:00 am

Okay I was off by $40...oooooo.  Smile I was just going by the numbers IATA provided.

CRJ-400 was also ordered by Northwest and will flown by both Mesaba and Pinnacle (they already have a few).

I've flown both the CRJ and 145. While I missed the roomier 732 on the OKC-CVG run...the CRJ was okay. Flights over 1.5 hrs is pushing it on them...but you can stand them. The ERJ I've only flown from TOL-ORD and did enjoy it. Wish I had spent more time on it (or more flights) to get a better opinion.
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RE: Best 50-70 Seat Aircraft For Midwest Operator?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 12:39 am

Username: Miller22

Thanks for the Dollars per block hour information - it was very interesting particularly for the BAe 146 / Avro RJ.

Would you have the Dollars per block hour for any of Fokker F28, Fokker F70, and / or Fokker F100?



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