DL WIDGET HEAD
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Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:51 pm

Just heard something happened to a Fedex 727 in TLH--does anyone know what? TLH is shut down!!!
 
tygue
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 9:20 pm

KTLH 261053Z 00000KT 9SM FEW001 SCT015 SCT150 BKN250 22/22 A3013 RMK AO2 SLP200 VIS SW-NW 1/2 CB DSNT SE CB DSNT SW FU SCT015 FU PLUME OVR APCH RWY 09 T02220217

Catch that? 'PLUME OVR APCH RWY 09 '

I'm looking into it.

Shit.
 
chili
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 9:26 pm

We lost a 727-200 this morning in TLH. Word is that all 3 crew survived when the plane went in short of the runway. The aircraft was destroyed.

Chili
 
AirT85
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 9:42 pm

Questions involving FedEx/UPS/Airborne and others like them.
When an aircraft is crashed/destroyed, does FedEx know what shipments were on them? Do they notify the people who lost items in the crash and do they compensate them for it? Or is there no way of telling besides the package never arriving at tis destination?
Tony
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 9:44 pm

The airport is expected to resume operations approx 1100...but at this time it's still a mess.
 
airways
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:10 pm

Tony: But you can be sure that they know exactly what shipments are one which plane. I often receive or send shipments by FedEx, UPS or TNT and they all have excellent tracking systems, where you can track your shipment. You can always see where the shipment is.

So, I'm sure they can get a list with each single envelope in the plane out of their computer systems. Otherwise, the system woulnd't work!

Michael
http://airways.ch
 
AirT85
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:20 pm

I knew you could track them but I wasnt sure that they would be tracked down to a specific flight, although it would make sense that they would. Do they have "manifests" like passenger airlines do?
Thanks
Tony
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 11:06 pm

News agencies are just now reporting this accident which totally destroyed the 727...thankfully nobody was killed.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 11:09 pm

Best wishes to Fed Ex'ers today. Fortunately, as accidents go, this one appears to have a relatively happy ending.
 
jjbiv
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Fri Jul 26, 2002 11:46 pm

It hasn't been a good summer for FDX. Two substantially damaged a/c, elevator damage, a windscreen fire, and now this apparent write-off. Thank who you may that FDX is fatality free thus far.

My thoughts are with the injured.

joe
 
 
wannabe
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 12:57 am

If I am recalling the past FedEx incidents properly where the aircraft have been destroyed, they have lost at least four aircraft in the past number of years but have not lost a crew member. (other than the crew flying Tom Hanks MD-11/DC10/A300???  Smile )

Newburgh, NY - DC-10 Inflight fire. Aircraft destroyed by fire after emergency landing.

Newark, NJ - MD-11 Landing Accident. Aircraft destroyed after hard landing and rollover.

Philippines - MD-11. Aircraft landed long and ran off runway and into Freeport Bay.

And now this incident in Florida. They must hire some hardy people to have them continue to walk away from these accidents. Whatever the reason, thank God no one either in the plane or on the ground was hurt.
 
brons2
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:08 am

It helps that only the crew is on board. Some of these accidents may have been more dicey with a load full of passengers.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
Airplanelover
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:59 am

Its a shame for Fed Ex! Sad. I read it on justplanes.com. Heres what it says: FM1478, a Boeing 727 en route from Memphis to Tallahassee, crashed half a mile short of the runway at 0543 this morning (26Jul) as it was on final approach at Tallahassee. The crew escaped serious injury.
 
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Bruce
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:06 am

Anybody have a reg. #?
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
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yyz717
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:15 am

jjbiv.....what were the other 2 substantially damaged Fedex aircraft this summer?

Neil
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
redngold
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:50 am

Wanna bet windshear?

I'm glad the pilots escaped.



redngold
Up, up and away!
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:54 am

I am just throwing out considerations, not making any sort of conclusions:

First, these planes are often landing at small secondary airports in pre-dawn hours before the towers even open up. I know these crews are trained for the hours they work, but geez...amen to those who can fly such aircraft at middle-of-the-night hours!

Also, I am wondering whether these jet crews can build any sort of familiarity with the cities they serve...Tallahassee one morning, Bangor, Maine the next, Akron, Ohio; Manchester, NH; Fargo...et al. Save for any weather-related reasons for the accident, I serve these issues up for discussion. On balance, I do have to admire these Freight crews: up here in Manchester, NH FedEx uses A310s, A300s, and DC-10s (in addition to 727s) while UPS uses A300s (in addition to 757s). In the past FE has used a DC-10 on a MEM-MHT-BOS(!) routing (now it is a A310 until our runway 17-35 finishes getting extended to 9,000+ feet). Watching either of these widebodies take off, empty, for the 50-mile flight down to Logan is amazing.

Chris in NH
 
Guest

RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:00 am

Also, there was nobody on the ground at TLH controlling the airplane...
At night when the tower is closed, Jacksonville Approach handles Tallahassee remotely off of TLH's radar.
 
connector4you
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:09 am

Not once I've heard unhappy FedEx pilots talking about their shaky aircraft and very demanding schedules !

I guess it's catching up with them . . .


 
chili
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:39 am

The 727-200QT was N487FE. Like usual, it was packed completely full of freight and mail. As far as connector4you, there is nothing "shaky" about our aircraft.

Chili
 
cabal
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:43 am

ok all cargo flight have manifests, it has to show every single box inside the plane. Fedex has Multi Piece Shipment but every single box has an Master Airway Bill or a House Airway Bill. So you can be pretty sure they know what was inside this plane...I worked two years for CO in Bogota Colombia and we carried Fedex stuff to and from Quito Ecuador....daily...so take my word..lol
 
AirT85
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:49 am

So do the people who shipped anything of value get compensated for the loss?
Tony
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
 
fsuwxman
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:53 am

To all wondering about the events of this morning...I was the weather observer on duty during this event. I missed the actual impact by about a minute or two (had to use the mens room), but I had been outside doing a routine weather observation. I saw the aircraft when it was about 15 miles NW from TLH, I assumed that the aircraft was going to do one of its two normal approaches, either crossing over the airfield and making a left downwind for 27 or making a right downwind for 27. Only once have I seen them attempt the approach for 09. While I was in the restroom I heard a boom, then two consecutive booms and ran outside to see what had happened. All you could see was the area on fire about 100 yards before Runway 09. Lets put it this way, it was one of the most horrifying things I have ever witnessed in person. Thank God the crew was able to walk away.
ASOS... Another Shi#y Observation Station
 
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:55 am

According to the NTSB brief, the aircraft was N497FE, and not N487FE as reported earlier.
 
acidradio
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 4:04 am

Apparently today was a major deadline for people who are filing to run as contenders in Florida state political elections, with the deadline for filing of paperwork with state officials as 12:00 Noon. Tallahassee is the state capitol of Florida. Supposedly a lot of emergency last minute aircraft have been chartered all over Florida to make sure the paperwork is received in time.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
chili
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 4:16 am

N497FE is correct. N487FE is a typo on my part.
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 4:16 am

I'm glad everyone got out ok, but I hate seeing us lose the already scarce 727s.


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Phil Derner Jr.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:07 am

Aircraft involved: Boeing 727-232(A)(F), Boeing serial number 20866, line number 1067. First flew September 3, 1974.

Delivered at N486DA to Delta Air Lines on September 13, 1974. Federal Express Aviation Services bought on December 2, 1986,resold it to TAP Air Portugal (reregistered as CS-TCH) on December 11, 1986. Air Atlantis and Gulf Air subequently leased a sub-leased it numerous times until it was sold back to Federal Express on December 13, 1989, reregistered as N497FE, and named "Tyler".

No photos in the a.net database for N486DA, the above photo is the Air Atlantis reference.

Tom in NO (at MSY)

Comment: as to possible cause, I don't see any severe weather in the observation shown above. There is fog (1/2 mile vis), so I'm wondering about CFIT (misread altimeter? example EA 212 in CLT in early 70's?)
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
N79969
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:20 am

I don't know about the wind shear theory. Were the WX conditions right for that? Is it possible that the PF became disoriented by an optical illusion caused by the fog? For example, he might have lost depth perception and misjudged the runway. Just a guess. I'm glad the crew is safe.

 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:27 am

There's some boy named Tyler out there that is very upset that his plane no longer exists. lol
Phil Derner Jr.
 
connector4you
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:35 am

Hmmm . . . 28 years old aircraft . . . ? !

Thank God the three crew on board are alive and can provide suficient information to the NTSB investigating team

 
zebfly2
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:34 am

Did it land parallel to the runway or was it short? I really can't tell from the overhead pic. It's a good thing there weren't any trees in the area or the results may have ended up differently for the crew.
Educate your children before others mis-educate them!!!
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:44 am

word has came down through "reliable" and "knowledgeable" sources that they knew they were a bit low, nose up a bit, more throttle, well, it wasn't enough and the #2 engine hit the ground... all it takes is a small bump back there to cause chaos.

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 7:43 am

I only saw one picture of the crash form CNN.

Anyone link me or post any other shots of it?
Phil Derner Jr.
 
Guest

Accident Photos/Details

Sat Jul 27, 2002 8:11 am

 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 8:23 am

I found an error.

Apparently, the webmaster of AirDisaster.com was either was listening to Chili, or made thier own typo, because the picture they linked of the aircraft (ChrisKSDF's middle link)......

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi_bin/view_details.cgi?date=07262002&airline=Federal+Express

.......is N487FE, not 497.

They also used an A.Net picure, giving John Davies credit. I hope he got a few dollars off it! lol


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Phil Derner Jr.
 
clipper471
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 8:46 am

Took the flight details off of "FlyteComm". Take a read at the last line, "flight status":

Airline Federal Express
Flight Number 1478
Departure City (Airport) Memphis, TN (MEM)
Departure Time 07/26/2002 03:37 AM
Arrival City (Airport) Tallahassee, FL (TLH)
Arrival Time 07/26/2002 05:37 AM
Remaining Flight Time 00:00
Aircraft Type Boeing 727 Stage 3 (-100 or -200)
Current Altitude 0 feet
Current Groundspeed 0 mph
Flight Status Landed
 
L1011
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:09 am

Thanks for the registration. I looked in my records and found that I flew on this aircraft on 10/17/82, when it was Delta's N486DA, from ATL-DCA. A sad ending for a great airplane. But a relatively happy ending for the crew.

Bob Bradley
Richmond, VA
Fly Eastern's Golden Falcon DC-7B
 
 
DouglasDC8
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:30 pm

AirT85 (and others who are asking the same question),

Anybody who had a shipment onboard the accident aircraft will be compensated according to Fedex, or in the case of international shipments, IATA (Int'l Air Transport Assn.) rules. I work in the cargo dept. of a major U.S. airline. To give you an idea of what the compensation would be I will outline our policies. Fedex will have similar policies.

Each cargo shipment has what is called a "Declared Value". That is the shipper's stated value of the shipment. (Pretty easy so far) If the shipper does not state a declared value for the shipment, he would be compensated at the rate of 50 cents per pound of the shipment's weight. (ie: a 200 LB shipment would have an automatic declared value of $100.00 dollars) Shippers can declare a higher delared value if they wish at a rate of 50 cents per $100 dollars of valuation. Internationally, the automatic Declared Value of a shipment is much higher, at between $6-$9 dollars per Kilogram. (Sorry, I can't recall the exact figure right now). The rate for additional Declared Value on an international shipment is much higher (sorry, I don't know the rate). As a matter of fact, I can't recall the last time a shipper has paid for an increased declared value on an international shipment. Declared Value is not insurance however, to receive a claim, the shipment had to be destroyed due to the negligence of the carrier.

Air carriers generally offer insurance on non-perishable commodities. Domestic rates are 75 cent per pound for most items. I have never seen an international shipment with insurance purchased on the airwaybill. The primary difference between insurance and declared value is that insurance will pay for damaged/destroyed/lost cargo regardless of the carrier's negligence.

I hope this answers your question. If I have made any errors, forgive me. I am trying to finish this quickly before a thunderstorm comes over my house here in sunny Fort Lauderdale. (sunny at 1 AM?)
 
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foxecho
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:38 pm

Big Phil NYC:

I thought you had more sense than that.

Anyone can fly a keyboard, but it takes real men and women to fly planes in the real world. These people's jobs, which they worked for years to get to are now on the line. I would have given anything to be able to fly.

I take great offense at your joke at the expense of some good employees at my former company.

FoxEcho
..uh, we'll need that to live......
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:15 pm

You know I was just joking. No offense should be taken at that.

It's well known that FedEx are extremely competent, probably moreso than most airlines.
Phil Derner Jr.
 
jjbiv
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Sun Jul 28, 2002 12:46 am

Thanks for clearing that up BigPhil.

As for compensating for lost shipments, each shipment automatically has a DV of $100. Additional value may be declared for a small fee. In order for FedEx to compensate the shipper for their loss, they must prove that the value of the item lost was equal or greater than the DV. The lower of the two amounts will be paid. Note that FedEx may decide to be more lenient in the event of a crash and simply pay what shippers claim as a loss for good customer service.

Yes, FedEx knows exactly what packages were on the plane. As handling units (igloos or bags) are built, the packages are scanned and associated with a CONS tag. The CONS numbers of handling units aboard the ship are known via the flt paperwork or COSMOS. After the NY DC-10 incident, FedEx beefed up the system used to get detailed DG/HAZMAT info to first responders. This flight had relatively benign DG/HAZ on board.

The other incidents this summer have been:
681 had a tail strike during an RTO at ELP
601 experienced a flight control malfunction on approach to Subic. A tailstrike resulted upon landing in Manila.

588 damaged its left elevator on approach to Subic as the result of a false GPWS alert.
608 had an external windscreen fire after the shield had cracked. Mx was fixing a small hole on the underside of the L. horiz stab at the time.

Earlier in the year, a fire bottle on 383 didn't fire when commanded. Mx replaced a cannon plug. Ship 482 landed in Peoria, IL with a hydraulic failure which resulted from a leaking flap motor.

Total incidents for the year are well under the numbers from last year, which is definitely a positive sign.

joe
 
DE727UPS
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Mon Jul 29, 2002 2:35 pm

Fatigue......

The word the ATA, FAA, and box hauler airline managements don't want to hear. Fatigue is real, it's mean, and it's gonna be expensive to fix. Since no one died and it was a freight aircraft, I'm betting this one get's swept under the rug. However, these things will keep happening until more conservative duty/flight time limits come on the scene. Did you know that the FAA duty limit for pilots is 16 hours...longer than truck drivers are allowed to be on the road.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Mon Jul 29, 2002 2:44 pm

Fatigue?

There is no indication that this 722 crew suffered from fatigue. The flight was a relatively short MEM-TLH with the crew most likely MEM based and flying only this one flight.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
DE727UPS
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:01 am

Why do you think this was the only flight of the night for this crew? They may be based in MEM but they it could have easily been their fifth night of flying from the west coast to MEM, (sit through the sort), MEM-TLH. Fatigue is hard to prove or quantify. Point is...fatigued pilots do some really weird things that get balled into blame for pilot error. You say there is no indication of fatigue? Why would this flight crew fly a seemingly healthy jet into the trees just short of the runway? They screwed up big time? Pilot error? Probably....but we need to look past the pilot error label. Fatigue is always a problem with night flying and the only way to solve the problem is reduce duty times for those hours of operation.
 
jjbiv
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:59 am

A fatigued crew has no place in the cockpit. If you genuinely feel unable to safely complete a trip, please call in sick. Be safe now; answer questions later.

Fatigue, as De727ups stated, is hard to prove and harder still to quantify. That makes it very difficult to legislate anti-fatigue laws that apply to an extremely large group of diverse people - pilots - without crippling the companies they fly for and infringing on their right to earn a living.

joe
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Tue Jul 30, 2002 4:29 am

even if the crew was flying a sector like PIA-MEM-TLH, they have a few hours in Memphis to rest.....

~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
hmflyer
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RE: Fedex 727 In TLH...what Happened?

Tue Jul 30, 2002 4:38 am

I agree with Joe. I know it is hard to do but if your are fatigued, you call sick.

I had to do this a couple of years ago. I was working for a commuter on the east coast. They had to cancel the last two legs of my 13 leg day (not kidding!) because I was to tired to finish. It was a day made long by weather. I called scheduling, they referred me to the chief pilot, I spoke to him, flights cancelled, matter done.