racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:07 am

New action from our free-trade friends:

(Information from a udn news quote in the orders group and this FT article)

China Airlines wanted to order 16 A330s in order to replace the 12 A306 they still have. "Boeing has cut it's price twice for the 777, but the price is
USD$205million higher than A330. Plus the 5-year maintainance and
operating cost, the difference will be USD$350million.
CI claims that the commonality between A330 and A340 is 85%. As a
result, China Airlines was "almost" going to announce A330 order on
the 18th.."


The decision was to be made on 10th July and to be announced on the 18th July. However, "US Government has asked for emergency meeting from Taiwan's highest Government authroity, showing "Bush's concern",
and "Taiwan should have FRIENDLY REPLY towards US' help to Taiwan in
the military defence"."


For the full UDN news quote, check the order-group post by jiml1126.

- Same thing as with El Al, A330 is the superior plane and the airline is forced by the US government to buy the inferior plane...
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:11 am

It bloody sucks when politics/politicians stick their butts into aviation matters.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:26 am

I would hope that Israel, Taiwan etc would give something back for all the bullshit the US gets for supporting their Governments.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
gkirk
Posts: 23345
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:29 am

The A330 only has 1 competing a/c, the 767-400ER, which as we all know is a commercial failure so far...the 777 is a much bigger a/c, so why should CI order the 777 when it's too big for them, and the 764 hasnt proven to be as succesful as the 332.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
wingman
Posts: 2769
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:33 am

Too bad everyone does it ALL the time. As I said in an earlier post on this same subject, an implicit guarantee of protection in the face of an overwhelming amount of surrounding force, or in Israel's case, at least an overwhelming desire to remove from the face of the Earth, is worth something isn't it? Shit, the US risks the haterd and ire of the Chinese government every time Taiwan feels the pressure. Last time I checked, the general EU response was "not my problem mate". Add to that the enormous trade deficit we run with Taiwan and you start building case for some 777 sales. The EU engages in the same exact practices but EU-bashing doesn't sell papers, US-bashing does. Anyway, it certainly doesn't hurt to ask does it? I don't think anyone is "forcing" Taiwan to do anything. That's a ludicrous overstatement that merely exposes the writer's hatred for the very government that guarantees his freedom of speech, cause he ain't gonna have any when the mainlanders take his pen away and tell him to shut the hell up.

Wingman
Proud citizen of the evil Satan-worshipping United States of America
 
DeltaSFO
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:35 am

Wingman, you have earned my utmost respect with that post.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
qatarairways
Posts: 864
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:02 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:38 am

Gkirk,

The A330-200 is the competitor of the B767-400ER. The A330-300 competes with Boeings B777-200. Both have similar passenger capacity but the A330-300 has more cargo volume.
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:48 am

So Airbus is very wrong to sell a cheaper product but its OK for the mighty USA to ORDER people to buy its planes. Is this the only way they can sell planes ?

Any of you go to Farnborough and see the great show from Boeing  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2460
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:49 am

Racko,

"Same thing as with El Al, A330 is the superior plane and the airline is forced by the US government to buy the inferior plane..."

I've already posted this in the previous discussion on CI's pending order, but it appears people still don't like letting facts get in the way of their bias. El Al wanted both the 772ER and the A332. After they ordered their 777's, they "reviewed" their finances and determined they did not have enough money to introduce two new types into the fleet at the same time, especially when they have had no prior experience with Airbus products. Of course, no one is going to deny that this "review" was 95% prompted by U.S. suggestion. However, saying the U.S. forced El Al to buy 777's over A330's is flat out wrong. (I'll leave the "superior/inferior" bull***t to those who like starting ignorant flame wars)


Now, concering CI, it does indeed look like politics might again make China Airlines get an aircraft they don't want. First it was the A340s for long-range routes. Now it could well be 777s for regional routes. Hopefully the Taiwanese gov't will proceed with CI's full privatization so this nonesense will end.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:50 am

No worries, cut Taiwan to the sharks (ROC). They buy Boeing anyways...
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:51 am

Ummm.. considering it will be the USA putting its ass on the line if (when) China decides to invade Taiwan, I think a request to reconsider the China Airlines decision is warranted.

Or are you saying the EU would be "right there" to protect Taiwan? (Considering most European airlines are too afraid of China to even use their REAL names when flying to Taiwan, -- witness KLM Asia, Air France Cargo Asia, British Asia Airways, etc. -- I kind of doubt it).
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:53 am

The A-330 is superior to the B-777? Um, ok...people, please allow at least 4 hours to pass between taking a hit off the crackpipe and posting on Airliners.net.

If we were talking about the A-330 vs the B-767-400ER, then you might have a point...but sales of the B-777 have nearly equalled orders for both the A-330 and A-340 COMBINED (737 total A-330/A-340 orders, all series compared to 603 B-777 orders, all series).

So now let's be fair and compare the B-767/777 orders to the A-330/A-340 orders. I'll even be generous to Airbus and only take current passenger configured production models (B-767-200ER, -300ER, and -400ER) into account. Let's see...whoa! There are 662 orders for those babies! And that doesn't count the early -200, -300, and -300F models into the equation.

That makes 737 total A-330/A-340 orders compared to 1265 B-767/777 orders.

Yep, those pesky Americans must really make a lousy product.  Big grin
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
qatarairways
Posts: 864
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:02 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:11 am

Racko,

What Hamlet69 said is correct. From what I have read El Al wanted the A330-200 as a B767 replacement while they still wanted the B777-200ER. Other than the financial pressure El Al was under, the US also put pressure to the Israeli government including a visit by Madeline Albright I believe. But with all the aid they get I agree that the US should get something in return. On the other hand neither Israel nor Taiwan asked for US Taxpayer money at Gun Point. But hey thats politics and shouldn't be discussed here.

EA CO AS,

When comparing sales you have to compare the following:

B767-400ER - A330-200
B777-200 - A330-300
B777-200ER - A340-300
B777-300 - No Direct Competitor (A346 too small)
B777-300ER - " " "
B777-200LR - A340-500
A340-600 - No Direct Competitor 773 too large 772 too small.

But I believe comparing sales isn't the best way to find out which is the best aircraft. The best thing to do is to compare to competing aircraft on different mission profiles.

E.g. Short-Haul flight with little cargo - B767-400ER superior but on longer flights or flights with more payload then the A330-200 would fit better.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:17 am

I always thought that was funny, airlines and Governments being afraid to show their real colors.

Here are some airlines/ Countries with no balls


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Benjamin PO Yu
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marlon



Airlines/ Countries with balls


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Arthur Yu
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Edward Lai


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:31 am

QatarAirways-

Let me get this straight...you do NOT believe that the number of sales has a direct correlation to superiority of one product versus another? It occurs to me that if one product line clearly has many more orders than another, then that line would seem to have the superior product.

Right? Or are you saying that the people who ordered from Boeing are just poor misguided souls who weren't enlightened enough to order a European-made product?

I guess by your logic Madeleine Albright spent her entire tenure doing nothing more than flying around the world pimpin' for Boeing with 767/777 specs in her briefcase, right?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
B777
Posts: 378
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 9:52 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:33 am

Clickhappy,

ROC (Republic of China)=Taiwan
PROC (People's Republic of China)=China

Ah well, many people get it confused.

Personally, I think CI should have the final say on what it wants. If it thinks the A330 best suits its needs, so be it. Remember, CI choose the 738 over the A320 because it found in its evaluation of those two aircraft (plus the MD90) that the 738 was better suited to the regional routes that CI operates.

By the way, if China does try to forcefully take over Taiwan, there is no guarantee that US will intervene with military action.

James
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:48 am

James-

The United States signed a mutual defense treaty with Taiwan that requires the U.S. to respond militarily (using up to and including thermonuclear weapons) in the event of a Chinese military offensive to re-take Taiwan.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:15 am

I thought what QatarAirways had to say was fair and balanced, he would make an excellent reporter.

With regards to the Taiwan situation it's a guarantee that the US would not allow the PROC to invade or attack Taiwan. Even President Clinton kept the policy when in '96 the PROC was test firing missiles and sabre rattling in the Taiwan straights, President Clinton sent TWO Carrier battle groups into the Taiwan straights. The missle tests and PROC's military maneuvers were halted.

We don't keep all those troops in Japan because the Japanse like their company, that's for sure.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
boeingnut
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 5:46 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:20 am

EA and B777:

Well, I dont think we'd ever go nuclear with China. But we would most definitely put a few carrier groups from the 7th Fleet on the eastern side of Taiwan, so that our a/c would be protected from incoming PRC a/c, but our would still have long enough legs to hit any aggressive forces. Not to mention any 688s we'd put in the Taiwan Strait. China is incredibly nationalistic, but the leaders, not even the generals of the PLA, are ignorant enough of the facts to know that any attack on Taiwan would incur the wrath of the USAF and USN, and then there would be all those fun economic sanctions put on the PRC, which would really put a crimp in those 7% annual growth rates the gov't is bragging about.

But, back to the topic. Even though I love Boeing, I do like the AB products very much, as well. This is a great reason why I disagree with gov't owned industries. Politics can have FAR too much influence over decisions, and force a company into equipment or deals that do not necessarily fit their needs, but fit the political whims of the gov't.

-Boeingnut
Excuse me, but what does God need with a starship?
 
n949wp
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2000 3:45 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:53 am

Racko,

While the 777-package may be more expensive to CI compared with the 330-package, it does not in any sense makes the 777 an "inferior" plane against the 330. They are different planes designed to meet different needs.

Otherwise, by your logic, wouldn't the A380 be the absolute sh*tpile of the airliners world, being so much more expensive than anyone else?

'949
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:03 pm

May I have your attention please,

The A330-200 does NOT compete with the 777-200ER. The A330-200 competes with the 767-400ER.

So stop getting so angry when Racko says the A330-200 is a much superior product. He is NOT saying it is superior to the 777-200ER. He is saying it is superior to the 767-400ER which makes sense.


I don't know WHY you all thought he was saying the A330-200 is superior to the 777-200. You guys need to CHILL OUT and stop this childish Airbus vs. Boeing war.

I've been coming to these forums for nearly 2 1/2 years and honestly I have seen enough Airbus vs. Boeing wars to last me a life time.

At one time, I was tempted to leave this forum because of all the childish behavior.

It just amazes me how no one ever learns......

Over the 2 1/2 years I've been coming to this forum, I am still seeing Airbus vs. Boeing wars..........

So please everyone, STOP IT.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Setjet
Posts: 1140
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 12:54 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:08 pm

Don't SHOUT around, we can hear you very clearly! Thanks.
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:34 pm

Ok I am not biased against Airbus or Boeing, being an Aircraft fan in general I don't give a sh** if it is Airbus, Boeing, Lockheed or Douglass. I just like to spot planes. Granted some a/c look better in certain color schemes like I couldnt picture an A320 in Southwest color scheme and I couldnt picture a 767-400 in Northwest color scheme. But where does one even get the idea that a A330 is superior to a 777? I'm not saying that a 777 is superior either, its all opinion. But saying that the U.S. government is pressuring Taiwan to buy Boeing aircraft is a little far fetched isnt it? Couldn't the same be said about the European Union pressuring Swissair, Sabena, Austrian etc to buy Airbus then?

I don't know why all this Boeing or Airbus bashing goes on. Can't we just enjoy both for planes to watch?
 
transswede
Posts: 969
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 9:30 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:41 pm

Geeezzz, people...

Of COURSE the A330-200 is superior to the 777-200 - For SOME airlines needs. And...
The 777-200 is superior to the A330-200 for other airlines needs.


It should be obvious by now... Are they still in competition, even though their seat numbers and cargo capacity don't overlap exactly, well of course they are. Airlines can consider more then two types, you know...? (Like A330-200/300 or 767-400 or 777-200) For example, SAS looked carefully at *ALL* those planes before settling on an A330-300/A340-300 combo.
 
kaitak
Posts: 8937
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:59 pm

Look, we can predict how this is going to end: CAL will be informed by the ROC government of its intention to buy a combination of eight A330s and as many 777s. Both sides should be happy with that (Airbus will have most reason not to be, since it effectively had its order cut by eight and the US will probably still try to persuade CAL not to buy any Airbuses at all), but that will probably be the diplomatic outcome. If the values need to be "evened" out a bit, perhaps RR engines might be ordered for both types.

I do see the American viewpoint on this, but I think the 330 is the most suitable product as an AB3 replacement, particularly as CAL already operates A340s.

 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:02 pm

I would hope that Israel, Taiwan etc would give something back for all the bullshit the US gets for supporting their Governments.

As far as I know ElAl and Arkia are all Boeing
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:03 pm

I say sell em whatever.

With their safety record they'll need 6 more in a few years anyway.
 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:05 pm

Oh, Israir too. Israir is all Boeing except for (I think) an ATR.
 
747-451
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 5:50 am

KLM's Balls

Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:26 pm

KLM is not a "loyal Boeing Customer


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Johan Ljungdahl




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Erik Frikke




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Colin Parker



and the point is???? Yeah sure

 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:44 pm

Well said Wingman.

Airbus Industrie engages in far more political arm-twisting for orders than Boeing has ever done. Witness Air-India, Indian Airlines, Air Canada, Air France, Air Algerie, Hapag-Lloyd, Air Malta. The list goes on and on.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 4:33 pm

Wingman,

I'm sure you get the medal of honor from "Bubble-U" himself...
It's always nice to see how convinced some people are of their leaders and their govenments.

Some people here express that the US guarantee our free speech...well, it is true that the US helped us in the past about that, but claiming that any free word today is only guaranteed by the US seems a bit overexaggerated, doesn't it? Hm, sometimes I think it's going the other way round: any time anybody says only a little bit "against" the US (even justified criticism), he is declared a member of the axis of evil. Is criticism of the US already a declaration of war? is the US always right?
If that is free speech that the US guarentess us, then I must say: thank, but keep your guarantee to you..


Regards
Udo.


P.S.: Racko didn't call the A332 superior to the B777, read his lines again before bashing him.
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 4:50 pm

By the way, if China does try to forcefully take over Taiwan, there is no guarantee that US will intervene with military action

On a side note...

You folks give China way too much credit. There is no way they could mount a credible amphibious invasion of Taiwan. Their brown water navy is a complete joke. It rarely ventures more than 100 miles offshore. Given that fact, how do they plan on getting to Taiwan?

Ask any military analyst worth his salt about the "Chinese Threat" and they will laugh. All they have, is lots of people. They do not have the equipment, technology or education to match up with a modern army.

I suppose they could load up their 747, 767, 777 and MD-11's up with paratroopers ala the movie Red Dawn and drop them over Taiwan as well, but that's an equally far fetched scenario.

What I am getting at, is the defense thing is overplayed by the US government. China is not that much of a threat to Taiwan. They would have taken it back a long time ago if they could have. And the US government is using this fallacy to sell planes.

I'm a huge Boeing fan, but $410 million bucks is too much to pass up.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 4:54 pm

hi

though I might find the general tone a bit agressive I jump in to ask :

AYyz717
-Air Algerie chose Boeing for the new orders (737 and 767 though) as did Royal Air Maroc....and France is said to still be the boss in its ex-colonies  Yeah sure
-Air Canada (??!!) you mean to say the EU has succeded in influencing a NAFTA country to the point it's not ordering Boeing anymore??? please give me a break..... which EU country has so much influence on Canada?? and what are the counterparts??

concerning the main subject:
As a European let me tell you that if I'm dissapointed by the fact we might lose an order, I kind of understand the US reaction : in case of war between PROC and ROC, Europe's action would probably be less "spectacular" than the "boys" one...that's worth some 777... even if it's not the plane that fits (the same for Israel)
But for christ sake don't give us some free trade lessons anymore.
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
VirginFlyer
Posts: 3890
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Orde

Tue Jul 30, 2002 5:17 pm

The USA usually stands by Taiwan so that Taiwan will buy Boeing aircraft? Funny, I was under the impression it was because Taiwan is a major supplier of consumer goods and electronics to the USA, at a considerably lower price than if they were to be produced in the USA, and because the People's Republic of China is a communist country, an ideology the USA is fundamentally opposed to (although that hasn't stopped them from selling Boeing jetliners to them, but that's a whole other issue)

I think we should leave politics to politicians, and airline fleet choices to people who make decisions based on economics.

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 5:32 pm

Airbus Industrie engages in far more political arm-twisting for orders than Boeing has ever done. Witness Air-India, Indian Airlines, Air Canada, Air France, Air Algerie, Hapag-Lloyd, Air Malta. The list goes on and on.

Yeah right, and why does AF buys the B777? Why does Hapag Lloyd bought B737-800? Your next assumption is probably that politics played a role in KLM's decision to sign a LOI for the A330. Sorry, but some airlines feel that an Airbus product suits some of their needs better than a Boeing product.

Regards
Laurens
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 5:33 pm

STT757, I would debate the existance of an inbred Canadian will to buy US built aircraft.

In fract there has long been an animosity acrross that border. Just look at the orders that existed in late 40's to the 50's that the Navy "Buy British" when it came to carrier aircraft. This was inspite of of large numbers of much cheaper surplus aircraft that the US government was willing to sell. They where offered F6F's to the Seafires the HMCS Magnificent operated with at $5000.00 an example. In the end due to the "Buy British" policy Hawker Sea Fury's where procurred from England, at $50,000 an example.

That policy wasn't changed until the Avengers where aquired to replace the fragile Sea Fires that where then in operation. (On example had it's tail pulled off when landing on a US Carrier).

Don't blame the US that the Canadian govenment has shot down every attempt to create a real aviation industry up there. The kill list is pretty incredible, C.102, Arrow, EH-101. Oh, the DASH-7 and Dash-8 where developed when Boeing owned DHC.

I think it is a very sad commentary that Canadian Airlines are not flying Canadian built long range airliners. Only the hope seems to be in the currently popular CRJ and Dash-8 aircraft.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
bobcat
Posts: 1141
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:28 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 6:05 pm

The Taiwanese president is eager to make another transit visit to the US. Previously, he had made brief "transit" visits, while on the way to a third country. However, it is quite clear that he would like to elevate this to a "private" one-country-only visit to the US. If China Airlines bows to internal government pressure and buys the 777s, Boeing and the US govt are unlikely to forget this favor. You scratch my back, I scratch your.... sort of...

On the other hand, Airbus is no lightweight. Germany, France, and the UK have all "hinted" to the Taiwanese govt about their dissatisfaction about delaying the Airbus order.

In addition, the US has agreed to sell several new diesel-electric submarines to the Taiwanese navy. However, the submarines will have to come from a third country, since the US does not make non-nuclear submarines. The Taiwan navy has long favored the German diesel-electric submarines and that seems to be what they'll buy. The German govt has officially said they will not sell to Taiwan, fearing Chinese anger. However, the Germans probably allow a joint US/German group to carry out the submarine manufacturing. This is one of the reasons the Taiwanese cannot ignore the Germans.

The reality is that the aircraft sale will never be a purely commercial decision.


 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 6:32 pm

I didn't call the 777 inferior or the A330 superior in general, but if the A330 is cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate for an airline, it is the superior aircraft for this airline.

Free Trade means that the trade are not controlled by the governments, but by the market.

About the submarines: If Taiwan pays enough, they'll get their submarines - just like Saudi Arabia who bought Fuchs tanks for almost twice as much as the list price.
 
cmchardyfl
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 8:29 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 8:04 pm

I think it makes absolutely no sense to buy the 777, if that is the aircraft that Boeing is offering to CI. Look, they are looking for a product to replace the A300. The most obvious decision would be to buy the A330-200. They already own the A340. It is so easy to train crews onto the A330, from the A340. I believe the conversion time is just a few days, and the cost would be next to nothing. Changes in engineering would be minimal, due to the similarities between the A330 and A340 and in many ways, the A300. Again saving millions.

If CI chose the 777 or 767-400, it would mean costing millions in new engineering tools and training. A good couple of months would be needed to train pilots onto the Boeing, and would also cost a hell of a lot. The 777 would obviously be too big for CI's needs and again, since they are looking for a replacement for the A300, and since they own the A340 it would seem like good business sense to buy the A330. Taiwan would save millions buying the Airbus than the Boeing.

I am not bashing Boeing, I love boeing aircraft, however in this situation, it could severely hurt CI to buy the aircraft. I actually would like more airlines to be like Emirates. Operating large fleets of both 777 and A330 aircraft, that's if it would make sense to.

Anyway, those are my views

Cheers

Chris
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 8:41 pm

Flight International is reporting that the USA threatens to cut military aid to Taiwan if they go with Airbus.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3168
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:25 pm


@yz717

Witness Air-India, Indian Airlines, Air Canada, Air France, Air Algerie, Hapag-Lloyd, Air Malta. The list goes on and on...

Yeah, particularly if you include airlines in your list with no or an negligible Airbus fleet - like Air Algerie, Royal Air Maroc, Hapag-Lloyd. Air Algerie operates no Airbus at all, Hapag-Lloyd has four 15 year old A310s in a fleet of 30 or so shiny new Boeing 737-800s and Royal Air Maroc has two or three A321 in addition to a pure Boeing fleet.

 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:43 pm

L-188,

What did I say againts Canada, I like Canada. Im going there next week.

I think Bombadier is great, they make NYC Subway cars and the Acela Express.

Racko;
The US will not cut off military aid, however there wish list of Aegis Destroyers, AWACS, Patriot Missle batteries will not be filled (either way).

They will get lots of P-3 aircraft, (non AEGIS) Kidd Class Destroyers, and Diesel Submarines made in Germany but sold through a US company for reasons mentioned.

The Patriot III missle batteries are iffy, but would defend the island against the growing PROC missle build up.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:50 pm

Racko you stated that...

"Free Trade means that the trade are not controlled by the governments, but by the market. "

To counter this point in regards TO THIS THREAD, why should Free Trade be applied to Airlines that are State owned?.

If the US wants to put Political pressure a Government (who receives tremendous amounts of US Aide) to have their "State Owned airline" buy US made aircraft then the US Government has every right, and frankly Free Market ideologies do not apply to State owned entities.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
carnoc
Posts: 758
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2001 3:15 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:53 pm

Just notice some of you that People's Republic of China (mainland China) is usually simplified as PRC, not PROC.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 7982
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:55 pm

I wonder why is CI buying the A330-200.

After all, CI is buying a replacement for their aging A300B fleet; they should be more interested in the A300-300, which has the range to fly TPE-NRT and has more seating capacity, real necessary for a slot-controlled airport like NRT.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:54 am

STT757 -- Absolutely agree with you: Since when does a State-owned airline play by normal economic rules?

If China Airlines wants to limit pressure from governments, perhaps they should go private! Until then....
 
wingman
Posts: 2769
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:56 am

Udo, re-read the post and learn. The writer is seemingly from Taiwan. Without US protection, Taiwan would've been swallowed by force by the PROC many many years ago. Now do you understand my statement. It was an expression of irony directed towrds the writer of the article, not all of humanity. And why don't you copmplain when the EU does this?
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:07 am

I think it makes absolutely no sense to buy the 777, if that is the aircraft that Boeing is offering to CI. Look, they are looking for a product to replace the A300. The most obvious decision would be to buy the A330-200. They already own the A340. It is so easy to train crews onto the A330, from the A340. I believe the conversion time is just a few days, and the cost would be next to nothing. Changes in engineering would be minimal, due to the similarities between the A330 and A340 and in many ways, the A300. Again saving millions.

This is probably the best post I have seen on this subject. I love Boeing, and I prefer Boeing airplanes all around to their counterparts. However, one cannot ignore the economics of the aviation business. With the existing A300 and especailly A340 fleets, there is just too much money to be saved by keeping the widebody fleet with Airbus.

Which brings up a side point though...it shows the importance of creating market share at all costs. With Boeing moving more towards a common glass cockpit, this will only become more important in the future, with both manufacturers selling commonality among the fleet.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:38 am

Wingman,

Ok, point for you. I thought you had adressed Racko, my comment was based on a misunderstanding. So let's forget about it.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: USA Puts Pressure On Taiwan To Prevent AI Order

Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:55 am

Flight International article reworded and stripped:

Washington threatens to cut military aid to Taiwan!

blah blah... we already know...

Some China Airlines senior managers prefer the 777 on technical and operational grounds but China Airlines insisted on doing "an SIA" by taking back 6 A343s.

Washington has said it would re-evaluate the cost of providing military assistance. A political storm appeared when China AIrlines ordered A340s as well as 13 744Fs and 5 738s.

"We hope that Boeing will get fair treatment by CAL. We have raised our concerns with CAL, the ministry of transport and senior government officials. We expect that, before a decision is made, Boeing will be given an opportunity to put its case," said the American de facto embassy in Taipei.

More information at the Flight International website

Information gathered from the above hyperlinked webpage. Full information can be viewed by clicking the above hyperlink.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ACATROYAL, Baidu [Spider], ChristopherS, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], HALFA, HALtheAI, mk2, NZdsgnr, PJ01, scbriml, SyeaphanR, Yahoo [Bot] and 225 guests